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Old 02-15-2014   #101
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Weighins can be cooked to show what you want them to be. If a quick weight GAIN is a goal for the Combine, it's a simple formula that requires no exercise or formal diet adjustment.........and no drugs to be detected that would jeopardize Draft/NFL status. Just load up on salt and chase it with your favorite water to easily add 5 pounds per day.
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Old 02-15-2014   #102
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexansFTW View Post
IMO you should already have your decision formed before the combine, then the combine has the ability to either reinforce your decision or off put you so much that you are forced to move onto #2 option.

It should never be anything as drastic as you might see from Mel Kiper's 7 day swings in 'his' big board.
Are you talking about the teams or are you talking about the fans?

For me... I'm a fan. I'm not such a hardcore draft fan that I watch college football players and identify guys I want. I gather information from a lot of sources including a lot of other peoples' opinions. I don't have a whole crew of researchers providing me information except for guys like Kiper and Mayock.

So, while watching the Combine and the Pro Days and listening to what other people are saying, that's how I'm going to come to my conclusions.

Then when we draft, I'll take a look at each kid and do a little more research (including talking to people here) and that's how I'll form my opinion of how we did.

For a football team with a whole crew of scouts and a GM and various coaches, they've got a lot of research to do and a lot of players to go over. They've got to integrate all of the information from the scouts with what the various coaches want and with what's done during FA.

The coaches, most of which haven't been watching much college ball during the season, have got to sit down first with tape of their own players to make evaluations and figure out where they want to go. Then they've got to take all the tape of kids from college and identify the guys the like and why and they've got to make a case to the GM about why he should pick their guy.

That's a ton of information.

To have you decisions about who you're going to go after already made this early into the process would be hasty, imo. You should have ideas about guys you want to watch and you should have ideas about what you should expect, but you shouldn't have come close to making any decisions, yet.
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Old 02-15-2014   #103
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
Weighins can be cooked to show what you want them to be. If a quick weight GAIN is a goal for the Combine, it's a simple formula that requires no exercise or formal diet adjustment.........and no drugs to be detected that would jeopardize Draft/NFL status. Just load up on salt and chase it with your favorite water to easily add 5 pounds per day.
As a powerlifter, I've seen some guys do some wild things to make weigh-ins.

Before my first competition, I had a stomach flu and dropped about 10 pounds. I was targeting lifting in a heavier weight class because of timing and scheduling issues. A day before, I was about 7 pounds short. After a serious hydration period, I made weight by a pound.

And then pissed like a racehorse.
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Old 02-15-2014   #104
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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
So if Teddy weighs 205 and Manziel weighs 205, Manziel will be higher on your board?

What if Teddy is 6'1" and Manziel is just under 6'? Does Teddy go back ahead or is Manziel still better than Teddy because they both weigh 205?
Right now Manuel is ahead of Bridgewater because of his off-schedule ability. If Bridgewater can show he's closer to prototypical size it would be a plus for him.

I'm giving those that say Bridgewater was light this year because of off season surgery the benefit of the doubt. If after working on adding weight he is still light I'm going to conclude they were wrong & Bridgewater may never be closer to prototypical size than he is now.

Look. It doesn't have to make sense to you. I'm fine with that. You think Bridgewater is a franchise guy I don't. One of the reasons for that is because he looks like Pee Wee Herman. He can fix that. We'll see.


FYI... 205 is better the shorter the player is. 5'11" 205 is "stouter" than 6'5" 205 (which would be frail).
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Old 02-15-2014   #105
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
...You think Bridgewater is a franchise guy I don't...
First, you mistake me for someone else. Just because someone else said it and I posted it doesn't mean that's my view -- I wouldn't have that many opposing takes. I post a wide spectrum of opinions of qualified or known scouts/media to further the discussion(s).

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
...Look. It doesn't have to make sense to you. I'm fine with that.
Not trying to be rude... I just don't understand changing your selection from QB A to QB C because A is 8 pounds light. I envision these guys when I read that...



Russell Wilson is 5' 10⅝" and 204 lbs. What does the tape show?
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Old 02-15-2014   #106
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
FYI... 205 is better the shorter the player is. 5'11" 205 is "stouter" than 6'5" 205 (which would be frail).
Tom Brady was 6'5" 211 lbs at the combine. Would that be frail? Actually, Brady was considered frail and not so athletic coming out of Michigan. And he was a 6th round pick. But he worked on his body, and became a better athlete and QB.

I would say yes, QBs are knocked for size. But that doesn't mean they can't overcome that and become good QBs. Bridgewater could easily bulk up.
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Old 02-15-2014   #107
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post



Russell Wilson is 5' 10⅝" and 204 lbs. What does the tape show?
You do know that we're talking about a small guy (Bridgewater) & another small guy (Manziel). So it's not like I'm saying ideal size is a must. Some people would like their QBs to run a sub 5 forty. a 4.9 might put one QB ahead of another running a 5.02
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Old 02-15-2014   #108
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Tom Brady was 6'5" 211 lbs at the combine. Would that be frail? Actually, Brady was considered frail and not so athletic coming out of Michigan. And he was a 6th round pick. But he worked on his body, and became a better athlete and QB.

I would say yes, QBs are knocked for size. But that doesn't mean they can't overcome that and become good QBs. Bridgewater could easily bulk up.
I'd have no issue drafting Bridgewater in the 6th. But I'm sure someone is going to over-value him & take him in the top 10 because one particular frail QB happens to be one of the GOATs.
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Old 02-15-2014   #109
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

The combine is more about the interviews and physicals. No player moves up or down more thsn 1/2 rd after a great combine unless al davis is alive.
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Old 02-15-2014   #110
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I'd have no issue drafting Bridgewater in the 6th. But I'm sure someone is going to over-value him & take him in the top 10 because one particular frail QB happens to be one of the GOATs.
So, if I understand you, Tom Brady is frail, weak, feeble. The same Tom Brady who has played all 16 games in 11 of his 14 seasons, and 15 games in one of those sub-16 game appearances.

Do I understand you correctly?
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Old 02-15-2014   #111
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
No player moves up or down more thsn 1/2 rd after a great combine unless al davis is alive.
Which is completely subjective, because there is no pre-combine draft. No one knows who would go where if the combine didn't exist. Where would Dontari Poe have been drafted if not for his spectacular combine? No one can say for sure.
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Old 02-15-2014   #112
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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I'm still old school I guess. I look at it from the stand point of durability. He was thin all year, I think he's a natural hard gainer & while he might get his weight up to 210 for the combine, he'll eventually settle back to his norm of 205 or less.

Manziel is short, 6'1" if he's lucky, but that same 205 looks better on him. More durable.

I know QBs get hurt all the time; big & small. I still think the smaller ones are more apt... I don't know that there is any data to prove it, I actually doubt it. But it makes sense. You don't send a boy to do a man's job.

You, & every Texans' fan know all too well what it's like to cross your fingers & hope your QB can play 16+ games a season, or if he gets hurt, that he can come back at the right time & finish. & we had a relatively "big" guy.

There are & there will be questions about his talent & his ability to lead. Don't need questions about his ability to stay on the field.

Manziel looks to run much more than Bridgewater. Bridgewater pretty much avoided contact by sliding and going out of bounds. Looking at the injury history, Bridgewater went through the season with no issues, Manziel was playing thru a shoulder, hand, and ankle injuries as the season progressed. Manziel is the bigger injury risk based on injury history and style of play.
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Old 02-16-2014   #113
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So, if I understand you, Tom Brady is frail, weak, feeble. The same Tom Brady who has played all 16 games in 11 of his 14 seasons, and 15 games in one of those sub-16 game appearances.

Do I understand you correctly?
There will always be exceptions to the rule.

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Old 02-16-2014   #114
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
There will always be exceptions to the rule.

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But you think Brady is frail, right? You said, "...one particular frail QB happens to be one of the GOATs."

I'm trying to understand your definition of frail here because it sounds like your standard is quite high. Tom Brady has played all 16 games in 11 of 14 seasons and 15 games in one of those other 3. That something like 193 games played and 33 missed, which sounds fairly durable.
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Old 02-16-2014   #115
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
There will always be exceptions to the rule.

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I think the point to take away is something that both O'Brien and Brady have said in different ways. Brady started off as a skinny, non-athletic project. But because of his dedication, work-ethic, and intelligence, he was able to improve himself and become one of the GOATs. Players can, with work, improve themselves.

Brady has said that -- I think it was near the end of his rookie year -- he saw an evaluation on him by the Patriots that basically said he needed to do everything faster. And so, he worked on that and he sped everything up. O'Brien has said that in most cases, a QB can improve their arm strength.

The evaluation that a team has to do is to figure out not only what these players are and what they did in college, but can they be molded and improved and built into what the team needs.

Bridgewater and Manziel are not going to get taller. But they can get bigger and stronger. They have to have the work-ethic and the desire so that after they're drafted, they will work on their weaknesses in the offseason.

O'Brien's biggest thing is their intelligence and their ability to make the right decisions quickly. I don't know how he's going to test that but that's how he's going to decide which QB to take this year (IF he takes a QB which I don't think is a given.)
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Old 02-16-2014   #116
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Quarterbacks
Quote:
1. *Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville
2. *Blake Bortles, UCF
3. **Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M
4. Derek Carr, Fresno State
5. AJ McCarron, Alabama
6. Jimmy Garoppolo, Eastern Illinois
7. Zach Mettenberger, LSU
8. Logan Thomas, Virginia Tech
9. *Brett Smith, Wyoming
10. Aaron Murray, Georgia
Running backs
Quote:
1. Carlos Hyde, Ohio State
2. *Ka'Deem Carey, Arizona
3. *Bishop Sankey, Washington
4. *Jeremy Hill, LSU
5. *Lache Seastrunk, Baylor
6. *De'Anthony Thomas, Oregon
7. *Tre Mason, Auburn
8. Charles Sims, West Virginia
9. Dri Archer, Kent State
10. Andre Williams, Boston College
Wide receivers
Quote:
1. *Sammy Watkins, Clemson
2. *Marqise Lee, USC
3. **Mike Evans, Texas A&M
4. *Odell Beckham Jr., LSU
5. *Brandin Cooks, Oregon State
6. **Davante Adams, Fresno State
7. *Jarvis Landry, LSU
8. **Kelvin Benjamin, Florida State
9. Robert Herron, Wyoming
10. Josh Huff, Oregon
Tight ends
Quote:
1. *Eric Ebron, North Carolina
2. *Jace Amaro, Texas Tech
3. *Troy Niklas, Notre Dame
4. *Austin Seferian-Jenkins, Washington
5. C.J. Fiedorowicz, Iowa
6. Crockett Gillmore, Colorado State
7. Marcel Jensen, Fresno State
8. *Jake Murphy, Utah
9. *Colt Lyerla, Oregon
10. Jordan Najvar, Baylor
Offensive tackles
Quote:
1. *Greg Robinson, Auburn
2. Jake Matthews, Texas A&M
3. Taylor Lewan, Michigan
4. Zack Martin, Notre Dame
5. *Cyrus Kouandjio, Alabama
6. *Antonio Richardson, Tennessee
7. Morgan Moses, Virginia
8. Jack Mewhort, Ohio State
9. Ja'Wuan James, Tennessee
10. Seantrel Henderson, Miami (Fla.)
Offensive guards
Quote:
1. Gabe Jackson, Mississippi State
2. *David Yankey, Stanford
3. Brandon Thomas, Clemson
4. *Xavier Su'a-Filo, UCLA
5. Cyril Richardson, Baylor
6. Joel Bitonio, Nevada
7. Jon Halapio, Florida
8. John Urschel, Penn State
9. Chris Watt, Notre Dame
10. Ryan Groy, Wisconsin
Centers
Quote:
1. *Marcus Martin, USC
2. Weston Richburg, Colorado State
3. *Russell Bodine, North Carolina
4. Travis Swanson, Arkansas
5. Bryan Stork, Florida State
6. Jonotthan Harrison, Florida
7. Tyler Larsen, Utah State
8. Dillon Farrell, New Mexico
9. James Stone, Tennessee
10. Zac Kerin, Toledo
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Old 02-16-2014   #117
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dishman View Post
But you think Brady is frail, right? You said, "...one particular frail QB happens to be one of the GOATs."

I'm trying to understand your definition of frail here because it sounds like your standard is quite high. Tom Brady has played all 16 games in 11 of 14 seasons and 15 games in one of those other 3. That something like 193 games played and 33 missed, which sounds fairly durable.
You're even exaggerating his games missed. In 2000 he wasn't the starter so those are not missed games. Bledsoe started the 1st two games of 2001 so again not games missed. Since then he had one injury causing him to miss games, the knee in 2008 causing him to miss 15 games. That's it, one injury which would have felled any QB who sustained that hit and resulted in a rule change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
There will always be exceptions to the rule.
Funny, you seem not to be aware of that when talking about Russell Wilson.
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Old 02-16-2014   #118
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Defensive ends
Quote:
1. *Jadeveon Clowney, South Carolina
2. *Kony Ealy, Missouri
3. *Stephon Tuitt, Notre Dame
4. *Scott Crichton, Oregon State
5. Chris Smith, Arkansas
6. *Demarcus Lawrence, Boise State
7. Jackson Jeffcoat, Texas
8. Kareem Martin, North Carolina
9. *Jeoffrey Pagan, Alabama
10. Marcus Smith, Louisville
Defensive tackles
Quote:
1. *Timmy Jernigan, Florida State
2. *Louis Nix III, Notre Dame
3. Aaron Donald, Pittsburgh
4. *Kelcy Quarles, South Carolina
5. Ra'Shede Hageman, Minnesota
6. Will Sutton, Arizona State
7. *Dominique Easley, Florida
8. DaQuan Jones, Penn State
9. *Anthony Johnson, LSU
10. *Ego Ferguson, LSU
Inside linebackers
Quote:
1. C.J. Mosley, Alabama
2. Chris Borland, Wisconsin
3. Shayne Skov, Stanford
4. Preston Brown, Louisville
5. Max Bullough, Michigan State
6. *Yawin Smallwood, Connecticut
7. Jordan Zumwalt, UCLA
8. Glenn Carson, Penn State
9. Avery Williamson, Kentucky
10. Andrew Jackson, Western Kentucky
Outside linebackers
Quote:
1. Khalil Mack, Buffalo
2. Anthony Barr, UCLA
3. *Ryan Shazier, Ohio State
4. Dee Ford, Auburn
5. Kyle Van Noy, BYU
6. Trent Murphy, Stanford
7. *Carl Bradford, Arizona State
8. Telvin Smith, Florida State
9. Lamin Barrow, LSU
10. *Adrian Hubbard, Alabama
Cornerbacks
Quote:
1. Justin Gilbert, Oklahoma State
2. Darqueze Dennard, Michigan State
3. Lamarcus Joyner, Florida State
4. Jason Verrett, TCU
5. *Marcus Roberson, Florida
6. *Bradley Roby, Ohio State
7. Keith McGill, Utah
8. *Loucheiz Purifoy, Florida
9. Kyle Fuller, Virginia Tech
10. *Bashaud Breeland, Clemson
Safeties
Quote:
1. *Calvin Pryor, Louisville
2. *Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Alabama
3. Jimmie Ward, Northern Illinois
4. Deone Bucannon, Washington State
5. *Dion Bailey, USC
6. Antone Exum, Virginia Tech
7. Terrence Brooks, Florida State
8. Ahmad Dixon, Baylor
9. Marqueston Huff, Wyoming
10. Ty Zimmerman, Kansas State
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Old 02-16-2014   #119
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
...Some people would like their QBs to run a sub 5 forty. a 4.9 might put one QB ahead of another running a 5.02
No NFL team would give a hoot if their QB ran a 4.9 vs. 5.02 second 40 yard dash.
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Old 02-16-2014   #120
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
You're even exaggerating his games missed.
Yup, and thanks for cleaning that up.
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