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Old 11-25-2013   #81
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by HOU-TEX View Post
Feel free to make a list of all the talent
It is a fools errand to attempt to justify individual talent in the midst of a season going this poorly... It is no different than trying to argue last year's team was devoid of talent at9-1...

All teams have holes. Some of the talent is playing poorly this year. I get it.
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Old 11-25-2013   #82
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by TheMatrix31 View Post
The Texans and Packers are EASILY the two most injury-riddled teams of the last two years. I haven't seen anything like either in all the time I've been watching pro sports.

Over the last three years, the Texans have lost (for an extended period of time) Matt Schaub, Arian Foster, Ben Tate, Mike Breisel, Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, Mario Williams, Brian Cushing, Jonathan Joseph, Danieal Manning, Kareem Jackson and I'm sure I'm forgetting more than a couple more.

You tell me whether the Broncos or Patriots have lost THAT many players and THAT MANY high-quality, integral players. Go ahead. Tell me.


Nobody is saying it's an excuse for poor depth or poor coaching, people. Stop putting words into people's mouths. You know, simply mentioning something is NOT using that something as an excuse. I hope you people realize that. In terms of these injuries, it's merely saying that sooner or later, that utopian fantasy of "next man up!" just doesn't happen. There isn't enough depth in the world to cover what we've had to go through and maintain the same success we would have otherwise. Frankly, it's a miracle we even made it to the AFC Divisional Round in 2011 and 2012.
Yeah, I was a little worried we were going to see this padding it out to make your point. The majority of those players were out for a few weeks and returned in time for the playoffs or never got 'injured' until the season was in the books.

Of all the players you mention only very few got injured early enough and were missed by the team enough to effect our playoff tilt.
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Old 11-25-2013   #83
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by htownfan32 View Post
How can you say we're a talentless team?

Duane Brown, Chris Myers, AJ, DeAndre (who has been off recently, but he's got talent), Foster on the offense.

DJ Swearinger, Jonathan Joseph, Kareem Jackson (don't say he's not a good #2, because he is), Danieal Manning, JJ Watt, Ninja, Cushing.

This is not a talentless team. It's a shallow team.
I don't think anyone's saying talentless. Not me anyways.

Sure, we have a small core of players that have talent, but some are making it sound as if we have the type of roster KC had before plugging in a decent HC.

I'll give you DB, AJ, Watt, Cush and maybe KJ. The rest can be argued, imo. Can Myers be good in any scheme that's not ZBS? I don't think so. JJo had one good season. Manning's average at best.

When I think of talent I think of players that have proved they can do it at this level and sustain. Swearinger and Hopkins haven't done much

I will say we are a lot better off than the last 2-14 campaign.
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Old 11-25-2013   #84
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by welsh texan View Post

Of all the players you mention only very few got injured early enough and were missed by the team enough to effect our playoff tilt.
That's ridiculous. Injuries matter no matter when they happen. Stop moving goalposts.
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Old 11-25-2013   #85
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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To the best of our knowledge those were not Smith decisions. Even if McNair has a new GM conduct the HC search it doesn't mean he will cede those decisions to his sole discretion.



Well then don't look to them for the standard for success without looking at how they got there. Peripatetic change is not one of their hallmarks.
To your knowlege what is Rick's job?

Whatever his job is I'm sure he contributed greatly to the mess the team is currently in. If Rick was Gary's yes mab do you want somebody like that leading yet another Texans rebuild?

As for all of the we gotta get a QB pronto posters, Didn't you learn anything from the Carr debacle? Build the foundation 1st. Maybe I feel this way because there's something I dont like about Bridewater. McCarron in the 3rd represents more value than Bridgewater at #1 overall. They both have about the same arm strength and while Bridgewater is more mobile McCarron is more of a leader than Bridgewater. It's not like McCarron is immoble.
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Old 11-25-2013   #86
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
As for all of the we gotta get a QB pronto posters, Didn't you learn anything from the Carr debacle? Build the foundation 1st. Maybe I feel this way because there's something I dont like about Bridewater. McCarron in the 3rd represents more value than Bridgewater at #1 overall. They both have about the same arm strength and while Bridgewater is more mobile McCarron is more of a leader than Bridgewater. It's not like McCarron is immoble.
Getting a QB now doesn't mean we have to throw him to the wolves. You can keep .... Schaub (or some other veteran) another year cutting him after next season with very little if any dead money.
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Old 11-25-2013   #87
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by TheMatrix31 View Post
That's ridiculous. Injuries matter no matter when they happen. Stop moving goalposts.
So mike brisiel getting injured for like 4 weeks with the playoffs already pretty much sealed and coming back for the playoffs has the same effect as Aaron Rodgers getting injured halfway through the season?
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Old 11-25-2013   #88
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by welsh texan View Post
So mike brisiel getting injured for like 4 weeks with the playoffs already pretty much sealed and coming back for the playoffs has the same effect as Aaron Rodgers getting injured halfway through the season?
All injuries matter. Why would you pick Brisiel as the guy to make whatever point you're trying to make here? In 2011 we also lost Schaub, Andre, and Mario and others on TOP of Mike Brisiel being hurt.

Besides, you were the one who said that it doesn't matter so long as they're back for the playoffs. So if Rodgers comes back in one or two weeks and the Packers make it, will that make Rodgers' injury no big deal? Of course not. Because if Rodgers was healthy, maybe the Packers wouldn't be struggling now.

Also, if you wanna focus on Brisiel, if I recall correctly, he was out for the last 3 or 4 games of the 2011 season and I think we lost the final 3 games which probably negatively affected our playoff seeding so yeah, on top of all the other injuries, Brisiel might have mattered quite a bit. Considering, you know, our OL matters a lot and it's clearly awful now.
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Old 11-25-2013   #89
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Yep. Someone should bring up the old Schaub vs Smith debates. There were a lot of people here that were suggesting that Schaub was the better QB.

Smith is a dud like schaub,just more mobile. A smith led team is 2-29 when his team gives up 24 pts or more. Alex smith is the same dude wo was terrible early in his career. The only change is the last 3 yrs he's had high end defenses. If he were on the texans,their record would be similar because he would've lost the 1st 2 games and maybe won 2 others,that's it.
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Old 11-25-2013   #90
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
To your knowlege what is Rick's job?

Whatever his job is I'm sure he contributed greatly to the mess the team is currently in. If Rick was Gary's yes mab do you want somebody like that leading yet another Texans rebuild?

As for all of the we gotta get a QB pronto posters, Didn't you learn anything from the Carr debacle? Build the foundation 1st. Maybe I feel this way because there's something I dont like about Bridewater. McCarron in the 3rd represents more value than Bridgewater at #1 overall. They both have about the same arm strength and while Bridgewater is more mobile McCarron is more of a leader than Bridgewater. It's not like McCarron is immoble.
I don't believe in McCarron. Guys that have the most ideal conditions in college scare me. 6 seconds in the pocket, play makers, rarely needs to throw over 30 times a game, amazing run game year in and year out. Defense that gets you the ball deep in opponents territory.

I like guys that have to work for it, that have garbage teams around them and still rise up when it matters like Bridgewater in the Bowl game against #3 Florida last year.

QB 1st, otherwise you will be building the 'foundation' forever. What about our foundation is missing anyways?

Top 5 WR - check
Top 5 RB - check
Top 5 DL - check
Top 5 LB - check (when healthy)
top 8 CB - check
2 top 15 OLine - check

Foundation is built bro. Time to strike is now. Andre's days are numbered and after MegaWatt signs his MegaDeal a whole lot of those other positions start becoming unchecked.
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Old 11-25-2013   #91
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Smith is a dud like schaub,just more mobile. A smith led team is 2-29 when his team gives up 24 pts or more. Alex smith is the same dude wo was terrible early in his career. The only change is the last 3 yrs he's had high end defenses. If he were on the texans,their record would be similar because he would've lost the 1st 2 games and maybe won 2 others,that's it.
Well said. I bet Matt Schaub on the Chiefs this year could have had similar success and Alex Smith on the Texans would have had similar failures.

All about the coaches and the system. None of these 2 have the power to overcome the shortcomings of those 2 things.
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Old 11-25-2013   #92
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by TheMatrix31 View Post
The Texans and Packers are EASILY the two most injury-riddled teams of the last two years. I haven't seen anything like either in all the time I've been watching pro sports.

Over the last three years, the Texans have lost (for an extended period of time) Matt Schaub, Arian Foster, Ben Tate, Mike Breisel, Andre Johnson, Owen Daniels, Mario Williams, Brian Cushing, Jonathan Joseph, Danieal Manning, Kareem Jackson and I'm sure I'm forgetting more than a couple more.

You tell me whether the Broncos or Patriots have lost THAT many players and THAT MANY high-quality, integral players. Go ahead. Tell me.


Nobody is saying it's an excuse for poor depth or poor coaching, people. Stop putting words into people's mouths. You know, simply mentioning something is NOT using that something as an excuse. I hope you people realize that. In terms of these injuries, it's merely saying that sooner or later, that utopian fantasy of "next man up!" just doesn't happen. There isn't enough depth in the world to cover what we've had to go through and maintain the same success we would have otherwise. Frankly, it's a miracle we even made it to the AFC Divisional Round in 2011 and 2012.
Uh, I don't know if you're serious or not,but the patriots started the season minus their top 4 pass catchers. Then they lost wilfolk and and mayo for the season. Not to mention the other injuries. The broncos are playing with 3rd string center,2nd team lt and rt. Not to mention champ hasn't played,rahim moore is done for the season,drc is down again and tell me who is playing lb? Yeah,and miller missed 1st 6 games.
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Old 11-25-2013   #93
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Uh, I don't know if you're serious or not,but the patriots started the season minus their top 4 pass catchers. Then they lost wilfolk and and mayo for the season. Not to mention the other injuries. The broncos are playing with 3rd string center,2nd team lt and rt. Not to mention champ hasn't played,rahim moore is done for the season,drc is down again and tell me who is playing lb? Yeah,and miller missed 1st 6 games.
Yeah, it's been rough. Still hasn't been as rough as us and the Packers over the last 3 years.
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Old 11-25-2013   #94
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Smith is a dud like schaub,just more mobile. A smith led team is 2-29 when his team gives up 24 pts or more. Alex smith is the same dude wo was terrible early in his career. The only change is the last 3 yrs he's had high end defenses. If he were on the texans,their record would be similar because he would've lost the 1st 2 games and maybe won 2 others,that's it.
Lee,

I think I have seen you on record in support of bridgewater... If that doesn't happen, given the depth of this QB class, what are your thoughts about getting two guys to come and compete...

Maybe Hundley or Fales late in the 1st and then Murray, mccarron, or mettenberger in the 2nd or 3rd...
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Old 11-25-2013   #95
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Yeah, it's been rough. Still hasn't been as rough as us and the Packers over the last 3 years.
The Pats make schematic adjustments to hide limited players forced into the lineup, we don't do that on offense or defense.... That is the difference.

Well, we do some on offense but it is within too narrow of a scope, I think.
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Old 11-25-2013   #96
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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All injuries matter. Why would you pick Brisiel as the guy to make whatever point you're trying to make here? In 2011 we also lost Schaub, Andre, and Mario and others on TOP of Mike Brisiel being hurt.

Besides, you were the one who said that it doesn't matter so long as they're back for the playoffs. So if Rodgers comes back in one or two weeks and the Packers make it, will that make Rodgers' injury no big deal? Of course not. Because if Rodgers was healthy, maybe the Packers wouldn't be struggling now.

Also, if you wanna focus on Brisiel, if I recall correctly, he was out for the last 3 or 4 games of the 2011 season and I think we lost the final 3 games which probably negatively affected our playoff seeding so yeah, on top of all the other injuries, Brisiel might have mattered quite a bit. Considering, you know, our OL matters a lot and it's clearly awful now.
In 2011 we had 3 starters on IR going into week 14. They were Schaub, Williams, Hartmann.

I'm unsure what point you are trying to argue here, if all injuries matter then across the board there are plenty of teams with much more players out than what we have this year, all of them have better records than we do.

I'm picking out Brisiel because I knew where you were taking this quite a while ago and am not willing to accept the excuse based on players who were out a few weeks after the playoffs were already clinched, that is not an injury that has a terrible effect on your season, it's not an excuse.
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Old 11-25-2013   #97
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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To your knowlege what is Rick's job?

Whatever his job is I'm sure he contributed greatly to the mess the team is currently in. If Rick was Gary's yes mab do you want somebody like that leading yet another Texans rebuild?

As for all of the we gotta get a QB pronto posters, Didn't you learn anything from the Carr debacle? Build the foundation 1st. Maybe I feel this way because there's something I dont like about Bridewater. McCarron in the 3rd represents more value than Bridgewater at #1 overall. They both have about the same arm strength and while Bridgewater is more mobile McCarron is more of a leader than Bridgewater. It's not like McCarron is immoble.

There isn't such a thing as value when you're talking franchise qb. I'm sure the dolphins thoought they were getting value with jake long at 1 and henne at 2. Guess what hapened with that? Ryan has been one of the winningest qbs since coming in,henne is a bum,and jake long is in st louis.

Even this early,the consensus is bridgewater is the best prospect regardless of position. If you're in position to draft the best prospect regardless of position and he happens to play the most important position in sports,there is no value other than drafting him. Carr was not the best prospect and it was debateable whether he was even the best qb. The owner stepped in and wanted a face of the franchise despite his shortcoming and as other have said poor foundation. Aj mccarron is nowhere in the same league as bridgewater. He's had all american,1st rd draft picks around him since he started just as the kid in with nj jets. He's had rbs,ol,dl,wr,dbs,etc and there is nothing I've seen to say he's anything other than a backup. He's not gonna have 6secs to read and make a play in the pros. So,stay on that train,in the nfl,your qb better be your best player or close to it or you're going nowhere.
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Old 11-25-2013   #98
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by TheMatrix31 View Post
Yeah, it's been rough. Still hasn't been as rough as us and the Packers over the last 3 years.
No it has been just as bad. Texans (and the fans apparently) just make the most excuses about it.
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Old 11-25-2013   #99
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by GuerillaBlack View Post
No it has been just as bad. Texans (and the fans apparently) just make the most excuses about it.
Even if you think it's been as bad for the Patriots and Broncos as it has been for the Texans and Packers, which it hasn't, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady do a pretty good job masking deficiencies.

And again, I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit either, because never once in this discussion have I used injuries as an "excuse" for the team's awful roster management and preparation for depth in catastrophic circumstances. In fact, that's probably the biggest problem I have with Kubiak, Smith, and the conditioning/training staff in general. One of these years you'd think they'd say "hey, we constantly get ****ed with injuries, maybe we should bolster the depth of the team for when those inevitable injuries occur" but I guess not.
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Old 11-25-2013   #100
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Default Re: What is the rebuilding path?

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Lee,

I think I have seen you on record in support of bridgewater... If that doesn't happen, given the depth of this QB class, what are your thoughts about getting two guys to come and compete...

Maybe Hundley or Fales late in the 1st and then Murray, mccarron, or mettenberger in the 2nd or 3rd...
If they dnt finish high enough to get bridgewater which I think they will finish with the wrse record,I would take clowney at 2 or 3,boyd with my 2nd rd pick,the tennessee nt in the 3rd. In terms of stacking the qb room, I would have case or tj,not both,and a young vet like tavaris jackson,josh mccown type.
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