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Old 11-04-2013   #121
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
The circumstances by which they came into the league don't matter when the goal for both is the same..1 guy came into the league ready to play, another came into the league and needed a year to develop before he was ready...doesn't matter in the end...if you can play, you can play & some guys need time to develop before they can play on this level...Do you think Keenum could've come in as a rookie & did what Luck did? If not, then we should give extra credit to Luck for being able to do that b/c alot of players (let alone qbs) can't do that....no matter where they were taken.

At the end of the day draft status will hardly be part of the narrative if they wind up matching up against each other in the years to come...if Keenum continues to develop that is & neither guy gets a career ending injury.

The question is, will you still be giving Keenum extra credit if he continues to ascend in the future b/c he's an undrafted FA every time he matches up against a qb who was drafted?.....which will be pretty much every qb he faces going forward.

What about making extra excuses up for him b/c he's an undrafted FA if he begins to slump in the future?
Ever heard of the term "underdog"? Keenum is the underdog right now. He gets "extra credit" when things go good. He gets more forgiveness when things go bad. It's the same thing as when a rookie makes a great play it's "look at what that rookie was able to do" or when it's bad it's a "rookie" mistake. Will/should it last? No. Is Keenum as good as Luck right now? Too soon to compare. You are right though. The bottom line goal is to win. Next year, Keenum doesn't get the same treatment. He may have to compete with someone for a starting job. He'll be judged on a more level playing field.

For this year though...undrafted free agent, inactive for EVERY game since he's been in the league, that nobody thought would EVER start just had the BEST QB rating in their first 2 starts for a QB in NFL history. That, is unbelievable.
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Old 11-04-2013   #122
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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The question is, will you still be giving Keenum extra credit if he continues to ascend in the future b/c he's an undrafted FA every time he matches up against a qb who was drafted?.....which will be pretty much every qb he faces going forward.

What about making extra excuses up for him b/c he's an undrafted FA if he begins to slump in the future?
At some point, draft status stops mattering. Exhibit A: JaMarcus Russell. Exhibit B: Kurt Warner. Heck, even Tom Brady (aka St. Tom the Perfect to the football media) was a 6th round pick.

If Warner had a bad game well into his career, people wouldn't be bringing up his status as a UDFA who came up as an Arena player and a grocery clerk after college.
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Old 11-04-2013   #123
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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At some point, draft status stops mattering. Exhibit A: JaMarcus Russell. Exhibit B: Kurt Warner. Heck, even Tom Brady (aka St. Tom the Perfect to the football media) was a 6th round pick.

If Warner had a bad game well into his career, people wouldn't be bringing up his status as a UDFA who came up as an Arena player and a grocery clerk after college.
Yeah....Warner's story to me is literally the NFL version of hitting the lottery. I mean at least Keenum had all the passing stats & records coming out of college that people can point to. Nothing about Warner coming out of college could've foreshadowed what he wound up doing in the NFL. The guy was 3rd string on a division II college team until his sr. year for crying out loud!

His story is so improbable, if someone told you about it before it actually happened, you'd think they were telling you about an upcoming movie instead of a guy's actual career.
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Old 11-04-2013   #124
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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I tried this a few weeks back, didn't go over to well. But Andrew Luck has yet to impress me. Like Schaub, he needs every part of his team to be working extremely well to keep it close & give them a chance.

Today is not that day. We've got problems of our own, nuy keenum is shining like a mother.

Two games into it, what do you think? Case Keenum or Andrew Luck?
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Old 11-04-2013   #125
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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If you know anything about Kubiak's game plan, that whole 2nd half was Kubiak's game plan. There was nothing different about how Kubiak would have called that game. That had KUbiak's name and style written all over it.
I'm thinking this is the reason Wade Phillips defense appears to trail off in their 2nd & 3rd seasons.

Season 1, nobody expects anything spectacular. Offense plays to score on every down. Year two, the HC believes he can punt more often, play the field position game. Year three, we go sign the best punter in the league, try to improve the field position game & play more not to lose than we had in the past.

& Wade's smallish front line, pressure defense, man coverage just can't maintain the perceived level of greatness if they don't have the QB in a must throw, pressured to score game.

This game against Indy looked just like the Seattle game. 1st half was ours, we dominated on both sides of the ball. 2nd half, even though I don't think the offense was scaled back, I don't think the play calling changed much, converting on third downs was approached with a lower sense of urgency, because the defense was playing well.

& they just couldn't maintain. They did fine in the 3rd qtr, but in the 4th when it seemed like we took it down another level on third down, they allowed what 21 points?

I know special teams is a joke & they've become our scapegoat, but our offense needs to do a better job of scoring in the second half & our defense needs to do a better job of preventing 2nd half scores.

& our kicker needs to be replaced.
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Old 11-04-2013   #126
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
Luck:
-didn't have his main guy Reggie Wayne & it clearly effected the offense...Also lost his #2 WR Heyward-Bey in the middle of the game too.
Kareem Jackson don't play.
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Old 11-04-2013   #127
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I saw it already happening in the 2nd quarter long before Kubes went down.
Was that before or after AJ's 3rd touchdown?

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Old 11-04-2013   #128
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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I know special teams is a joke & they've become our scapegoat, but our offense needs to do a better job of scoring in the second half & our defense needs to do a better job of preventing 2nd half scores.
Against NFL-caliber opponents, you can almost never decide to let your offense quit after one half. Too many three-and-outs or short possessions and even a strong defense will get tired from being on the field way too long.

We've seen that in a LOT of Texans games in the entire Kubiak era. How many times has a dominant first half been followed up by a second half where the Texans were still the better team? I'll be honest -- I can't think of a single example.
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Old 11-04-2013   #129
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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I'm thinking this is the reason Wade Phillips defense appears to trail off in their 2nd & 3rd seasons.

Season 1, nobody expects anything spectacular. Offense plays to score on every down. Year two, the HC believes he can punt more often, play the field position game. Year three, we go sign the best punter in the league, try to improve the field position game & play more not to lose than we had in the past.

& Wade's smallish front line, pressure defense, man coverage just can't maintain the perceived level of greatness if they don't have the QB in a must throw, pressured to score game.

This game against Indy looked just like the Seattle game. 1st half was ours, we dominated on both sides of the ball. 2nd half, even though I don't think the offense was scaled back, I don't think the play calling changed much, converting on third downs was approached with a lower sense of urgency, because the defense was playing well.

& they just couldn't maintain. They did fine in the 3rd qtr, but in the 4th when it seemed like we took it down another level on third down, they allowed what 21 points?

I know special teams is a joke & they've become our scapegoat, but our offense needs to do a better job of scoring in the second half & our defense needs to do a better job of preventing 2nd half scores.

& our kicker needs to be replaced.
I'm surprised that no one is really talking about how disappointing the defense has been this year. It seems people just brush it off and put all the blame on the offense, but if your defense is supposed to be so good you don't let another team score TD after TD to get the lead.

That's why I'm fine with total clean. Wade's defenses have a history of regressing and we even see it in game that teams adjust see what Wade is doing and there is never a adjustment back. At some point during the Colts come back the defense has to make a play, make a big stop.

Pretty sure most DC, great players will say that the offense put up enough points to win that game.

Of course they could have always put up more and that would have been nice but the blame goes all around for me.
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Old 11-04-2013   #130
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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Originally Posted by ziggy29 View Post
Against NFL-caliber opponents, you can almost never decide to let your offense quit after one half. Too many three-and-outs or short possessions and even a strong defense will get tired from being on the field way too long.

We've seen that in a LOT of Texans games in the entire Kubiak era. How many times has a dominant first half been followed up by a second half where the Texans were still the better team? I'll be honest -- I can't think of a single example.
The team under Kubiak has been notorious for NOT playing all 4 quarters. The Pats vs. Steelers game was a good example over the weekend of why an offense can't let up. The Steelers kept clawing back against the Pats to the extent that that Pats had to score something like 55 points to win.
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Old 11-04-2013   #131
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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That's why I'm fine with total clean. Wade's defenses have a history of regressing and we even see it in game that teams adjust see what Wade is doing and there is never a adjustment back. At some point during the Colts come back the defense has to make a play, make a big stop.
I agree to a point. But these Kubiak-era Texans have always had the same tendency: When you dominate the first half, you let up in the second half. Your offense goes vanilla, stops doing what was working in the first half (or fails to adjust to the opponent's adjustments) and three-and-outs too much.

We're not talking about a Top 10 college team against a weak FCS team. This is the NFL and there's much more parity in terms of talent (yes, even the Jaguars and Bucs). You can let almost any team back in the game by playing "not to lose". My point here is.... would Wade's defense be a problem in a second half with a big lead if the offense kept doing what was working in the first half? If not, how much of that is Wade's fault?

(That said, I like Wade as a DC but he's a terrible head coach. He's a perfect example of the Peter Principle.)
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Old 11-04-2013   #132
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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Against NFL-caliber opponents, you can almost never decide to let your offense quit after one half. Too many three-and-outs or short possessions and even a strong defense will get tired from being on the field way too long.
That's nothing new. There's a difference between quitting & playing for field position & there's nothing wrong with playing for field position if you're built for it... & we are. We need to be able to run the ball when they know we're going to run the ball.

Of course in a game when it isn't working, your starting running back left the game, your back up has 4 broken ribs, & your third string guy was signed off someone else's practice squad two weeks ago, you call a better game.

Play to your strengths, & throw the ball. & while Keenum made some big plays in the two TE, two back sets, the offense looked much better with 3 & 4 WRs.

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We've seen that in a LOT of Texans games in the entire Kubiak era. How many times has a dominant first half been followed up by a second half where the Texans were still the better team? I'll be honest -- I can't think of a single example.
Exception to the rule & all, but the one year Ben Tate lived up to his draft status, we did what we wanted all year long. That game plan got Tj Yates into the play-offs & won a play off game.

We don't have that now... but someone at Reliant thinks we do.
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Old 11-04-2013   #133
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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Play to your strengths, & throw the ball. & while Keenum made some big plays in the two TE, two back sets, the offense looked much better with 3 & 4 WRs.
With that in mind. I saw at least one snap where Graham started in the backfield, but was later motioned out to the slot.

I thought that was due to the fact that our RBs aren't up to snuff at the moment. But, I thought that would be a nice wrinkle in our offense. I'd never hand the ball off to him, but we can use him for protection & as a receiver out of the backfield.

Or even Greg Jones. When we've got 4 receivers, we need someone back there who can pick up the blitz & if Arian is going to be questionable the rest of the year, we've either got to get DJ or Karim up to speed on blitz pick-ups, or use Greg Jones/Byrne/Graham.
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Old 11-04-2013   #134
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

ST gave the Colts the ball at their 42 to start the half.
The Colts only gained 26 yards on that drive, to the Texans 32.
Ed Reed then committed the stupid penalty on third and six on an incompletion.
Instead of a 50-yd FG try, the Colts got a 35-yd cheap shot.

ST and Reed cost the Texans 3 points here.

The Texans then got the ball at their 13.
They had to march 62 yards to earn a 43-yd FG by Bullock.
A false start on Graham and a 2-yd loss by Tate also hurt the drive.

The Colts got the ball at their 22 and marched downfield to the Texans 20.
On third and 5, Sharpton was called for that penalty on yet another incompletion by Luck.

Instead of a FG, the Colts ended up with a TD.

The Texans then go 55 yards (starting at their 20) before Bullock missed the 43-yarder.
ST team failed again.

The Colts then got the ball at their 33 due to the missed FG try; they needed only 2 plays to score.

Defense failed.

With 9:46 to go, the Texans got the ball at their 20.
On third and seven, the ref robbed the Texans of a third down conversion
when they reverse the catch by AJ.

Lechler then punted the ball for 19 yards to give the Colts the ball at their 48.
ST failed again.

The Colts scored and tacked on the 2-point conversion.
Defense failed.

The offense then failed for the first time when the Colts had the perfect D calls on 3 consecutive play (after a 25-yd completion to AJ.)
It looked like the Colts knew exactly what the Texans were about to run.

Lechler punted the ball with the Colts calling fair catch at their 16.
They burned all the Texans time-outs before punting.

Martin returned it for 20 yards, but a holding call on Mack brought the ball back to the Texans 33; the Texans would have had the ball in Colts territory, on the 47yd line or so.
ST failed again.

With 44 seconds left, the Texans managed 4 plays (including the spike) for 30 yards before the last missed by Bullock.

Tell me where the problems lie?
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Old 11-04-2013   #135
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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Was that before or after AJ's 3rd touchdown?

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Old 11-05-2013   #136
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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Tell me where the problems lie?
Fire Marciano & Randy Bullock....in the offseason (we need high picks).
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Old 11-05-2013   #137
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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I'm surprised that no one is really talking about how disappointing the defense has been this year. It seems people just brush it off and put all the blame on the offense, but if your defense is supposed to be so good you don't let another team score TD after TD to get the lead.

That's why I'm fine with total clean. Wade's defenses have a history of regressing and we even see it in game that teams adjust see what Wade is doing and there is never a adjustment back. At some point during the Colts come back the defense has to make a play, make a big stop.

Pretty sure most DC, great players will say that the offense put up enough points to win that game.

Of course they could have always put up more and that would have been nice but the blame goes all around for me.
I agree. The bleating herd saying "no. 1 defense" is merely putting sprinkles on a dog turd. It's not a brownie. It's poo..with sprinkles on it.

18 points should be a lead that a so-called "no. 1 defense" can protect. Instead, they let the Colts catch up fairly easy.

But really, like you mentioned, this is nothing new with Wade. His history repeats itself over and over again. He gets the benefit of the doubt because of his family ties to this city, but any other DC would be fair game to criticize for the same results.
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Old 12-16-2013   #138
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

Reading this thread again after the 2nd loss to the Colts is hilarious.
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Old 12-16-2013   #139
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
Reading this thread again after the 2nd loss to the Colts is hilarious.
NO doubt.

What seemed promising at one time.... seems like a waste of time now.

But when it's all said & done, we're looking for a QB that can put this team on the level that Luck has his team. If we're going to win the division ever again, we're going to need a QB that this team believes in like that team does.
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Old 12-16-2013   #140
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Default Re: Case Keenum vs Andrew Luck

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
NO doubt.

What seemed promising at one time.... seems like a waste of time now.

But when it's all said & done, we're looking for a QB that can put this team on the level that Luck has his team. If we're going to win the division ever again, we're going to need a QB that this team believes in like that team does.

It will be interesting to see how Luck does against the Chiefs. Still don't think the Colts will make it far, but if they get the right opponents in the playoffs, they may make it to the AFC Championship game.
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