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Old 11-06-2013   #181
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

I'm just waiting for Incognito to play the victim, now. It's coming. Most bullies go to the victim ploy when confronted about their bullying/bad behavior. Tick, tock, tick....
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Old 11-06-2013   #182
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
So you don't like his opinion on this situation, and therefore you think his opportunity to express his opinion should be revoked, right ?

Hey, I suspect it's MOL the opinion of the majority of NFL players. Bet if you'd ask what another hard-azz NFL CB like the Texans Kareem Jackson thinks you'd get the same kinda comments.
And that's the goddamn neanderthal mentality that makes guys like Aaron Hernandez and his whole "respect" schtick think they can literally get away with murder. If you think that conduct doesn't stem from the same dark place, you're sorely mistaken.

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You know what else does that? And does it even better? Doing what Martin did. Let's say he stands up to him - he risks getting his butt kicked and the same thing just continues in perpetuity. Or until Incognito is gone or wears out his welcome. Again.

Doing it this way, the power dynamic is completely changed in a more effective and permanent way.
A thousand times this.

After listening to Travis Johnson this morning, it simply affirms my belief that some of these cretins just don't get it. Evidently the only way to "man up" in this situation is to try and beat the Hell out of Incognito. Never once did I hear "well yeah, the system is broke". Nope, I heard the same machismo bull**** that leads to gang shootings.

Hell, I'm not the type that believes that violence never solves anything, and I truly wish that Martin had pounded Incognito into next week. That said, you can't fix the mentality without a huge paradigm shift in the way that locker rooms are maintained in the NFL. "Boys will be Boys" gets us gang warfare, rape culture, and now this. That NFL players think Martin "brought this upon himself" speaks volumes about how far the behavior must shift to be anywhere close to societal normal.
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Old 11-06-2013   #183
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

I don't see how Martin will play in the nfl again.

Incognito is an idiot. We know that. But you can't be in a locker room and be a lamb. You don't have to be a predator, but you definitely can't be the prey. If I'm a player on the team, I'm skeptical about this guy playing next to me because I don't know if things get sketchy if this guy will wilt because the opposing players are intimidating him. If you see a guy twisting my ankle are you going to have the audacity to push him off if me?

I have no issue with Martin as a human being. I have no issue with anyone that won't fight, gets intimidated, or just avoids confrontation (I don't know if that's the case here). But just speaking from a football perspective, or anything that involves going into a hostile environment....you want to be with people that will boss up.


All that said, incognito should be suspended by the team...not the nfl. The team shouldn't want that kind of behavior going on in their locker rooms.
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Old 11-06-2013   #184
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Miami Dolphins coaches reportedly told suspended lineman Richie Incognito to "toughen up" teammate Johnathan Martin after the latter player missed part of the team's offseason workout program, a new report claimed Tuesday evening.
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2013/1...hen-up-martin/
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Who else remembers one Seth Wand, former Houston Texans' offensive lineman and one time starting LT for the team ? There's some definite similarities here.
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Old 11-06-2013   #185
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by Rey View Post
I don't see how Martin will play in the nfl again.

Incognito is an idiot. We know that. But you can't be in a locker room and be a lamb. You don't have to be a predator, but you definitely can't be the prey. If I'm a player on the team, I'm skeptical about this guy playing next to me because I don't know if things get sketchy if this guy will wilt because the opposing players are intimidating him. If you see a guy twisting my ankle are you going to have the audacity to push him off if me?

I have no issue with Martin as a human being. I have no issue with anyone that won't fight, gets intimidated, or just avoids confrontation (I don't know if that's the case here). But just speaking from a football perspective, or anything that involves going into a hostile environment....you want to be with people that will boss up.


All that said, incognito should be suspended by the team...not the nfl. The team shouldn't want that kind of behavior going on in their locker rooms.
One doesn't "toughen" up to beat depression. You don't "nut up" and get over depression.

Sounds like another athlete falls victim to a sport and a macho mentality that is ill equipped to deal with a COMMON psychological issue like depression. Sounds like the NFL needs to ditch pink October and do something to raise mental health awareness.
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Old 11-06-2013   #186
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by IlliniJen View Post
One doesn't "toughen" up to beat depression. You don't "nut up" and get over depression.

Sounds like another athlete falls victim to a sport and a macho mentality that is ill equipped to deal with a COMMON psychological issue like depression. Sounds like the NFL needs to ditch pink October and do something to raise mental health awareness.
This is a good post Jen..... I've played with guys who were "different". They did get messed with I'm not going to lie. At the end of the day I don't care what you do off of the field. I do need you to be a warrior on the field though. If a guy doesn't stand up for himself off of the field I'm not going to think he won't on it. To me they're 2 different environments. I'm a crazy, competitive person who goes off on you when I'm playing, but I'm super laid back off the field. We need to accept those who are different and not put them in a box.
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Old 11-06-2013   #187
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by IlliniJen View Post
One doesn't "toughen" up to beat depression. You don't "nut up" and get over depression.

Sounds like another athlete falls victim to a sport and a macho mentality that is ill equipped to deal with a COMMON psychological issue like depression. Sounds like the NFL needs to ditch pink October and do something to raise mental health awareness.
Or maybe sounds like an athlete who's ill equipped to deal with the macho mentality of the NFL, atleast that's what some other league vets are wondering ?
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Old 11-06-2013   #188
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by RazorOye View Post
why not?

I keep seeing this sentiment pop up and to de-contextualize it this way seems to miss the importance of power and its structure in the situation. The nature of the abuse/harassment takes place with a lot of other complicit bodies and a power structure in a locker room. The clout that Incognito (allegedly) had speaks volumes about how that power dynamic played out.

All of this armchair quarterbacking, er.... offensive tackling (?) after the fact about what he should or should not have done seems beside that point.

Martin inverted the power dynamic.

All of the "He shoulda wooped that guy" is about one thing, right? Turning the tables on the bully. Challenging that power hierarchy.

You know what else does that? And does it even better? Doing what Martin did. Let's say he stands up to him - he risks getting his butt kicked and the same thing just continues in perpetuity. Or until Incognito is gone or wears out his welcome. Again.

Let's say Martin wins. Does that stop Incognito? Doubtful. Maybe I'm psychoanalyzing here, but going with his history, I think it's a reasonable conclusion.

Doing it this way, the power dynamic is completely changed in a more effective and permanent way. It's shifted. I know Martin is a well read dude. Maybe he was reading Sun Tzu or Mind**** Your Enemies For Dummies. I don't know.

BUt I do know that the cretin that occupied the top of the power structure is now having to (in his words) "weather the storm." That doesn't happen if Martin fights him, win, lose, or draw.

And Martin risked a lot by taking the tact he did. I think calling him a "coward" or trying to depict this as "walking away" is an oversimplification and ignores the gravity in the choice that he made. (edit: this is a general comment, silvr - not directed at you. Actually, that goes for a bit of this post, using yours as a sort of launching point rather than a direct response/contradiction)

So far it looks to me like he did the "right" thing in a lot of ways. Incognito loses power in more than an interim basis. We have a broader social discussion of this type of issue - the discussion has transcended the NFL and has even been mentioned in the context of schools. Martin challenges and complicates (and potentially reverses, in some ways) his portrayal as simply victim and becomes partly advocate.

I have trouble faulting Martin for any of his decisions and his choice has changed the dynamics of the power relationship in a way that wouldn't have been remotely possible in the locker room itself.
Martin broke the lockerroom code. I doubt he plays for the Dolphins, or any other teams in the NFL.

Hiring Martin is more trouble than it's worth and very few of his teammates will respect him if he tries to play for another team. Martin effectively killed his career, but he reversed the power structure. Not that football ever meant that much to him in the 1st place.

The lockeroom attitudes are also why gay players will never come out of the closet.
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Old 11-06-2013   #189
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34 View Post
I think a mild bully you hit back and it's over . Richie is more like Dracula where you would have to put a stake in him . That's why the Dolphins have been bad . It's more about taking rookies manhood or visa card than it is about building a team .

I wonder what Jake Long thinks about it ?
Great comparison.

Everyone keeps saying punch a bully in the face, but what if that bully has antisocial personality disorder (basically a sociopath).

Beating them only feeds the beast and elevates the situation to new levels of depravity.

For instance, the Robert De Niro character in Cape Fear: Bully or sociopath/psychopath?



The normal "rules of engagement" for dealing with typical bullies do not apply or work with sociopaths.

And this is where I think the story has become lost in translation. Incognito was more than just a bully. Dude crossed so many lines that his behavior goes into the category of mental depravity. This kind of mind does not hear reason, does not respond to respect, does not back down in confrontation or even getting his own ass kicked in.

Johnathan Martin's teammates have said he has stood up for himself and fought other linemen. Dude is not the wimp he's being portrayed.

But who here is really equipped to deal with a sociopath that is threatening to sexually assault your mother?

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Originally Posted by IlliniJen View Post
One doesn't "toughen" up to beat depression. You don't "nut up" and get over depression.

Sounds like another athlete falls victim to a sport and a macho mentality that is ill equipped to deal with a COMMON psychological issue like depression. Sounds like the NFL needs to ditch pink October and do something to raise mental health awareness.
Awesome point, but we know it will never happen. Pink month is about marketing as much as anything else. Shedding light on the mental health of players carries risks that could "damage the shield". While I think your suggestion is one of the best I've heard as it pertains to the league taking care of players, we know it will never happen because the NFL likes to bury its dirty laundry and act like nothing happened.
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Old 11-06-2013   #190
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Martin broke the lockerroom code. I doubt he plays for the Dolphins, or any other teams in the NFL.

Hiring Martin is more trouble than it's worth and very few of his teammates will respect him if he tries to play for another team. Martin effectively killed his career, but he reversed the power structure. Not that football ever meant that much to him in the 1st place.

The lockeroom attitudes are also why gay players will never come out of the closet.
Haha, what locker room code did you break? He walked away and had to explain why he walked away. He had racial and death threats thrown his way........ man I hope you have a son that deals with the same crap and think locker room code needs to be upheld. Locker room code is a brotherhood. I would never make my brother feel less like a man. The idiots bringing up this stuff don't know what they're talking about.
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Old 11-06-2013   #191
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Martin broke the lockerroom code. I doubt he plays for the Dolphins, or any other teams in the NFL.

Hiring Martin is more trouble than it's worth and very few of his teammates will respect him if he tries to play for another team. Martin effectively killed his career, but he reversed the power structure. Not that football ever meant that much to him in the 1st place.

The lockeroom attitudes are also why gay players will never come out of the closet.
Haha, what locker room code did he break? He walked away and had to explain why he walked away. He had racial and death threats thrown his way........ man I hope you have a son that deals with the same crap and think locker room code needs to be upheld. Locker room code is a brotherhood. I would never make my brother feel less like a man. The idiots bringing up this stuff don't know what they're talking about.
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Old 11-06-2013   #192
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

Martin is gone because he had no code,

He is gone because he had no honor,

and God was watching.


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Old 11-06-2013   #193
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by Texn4life View Post
Haha, what locker room code did he break? He walked away and had to explain why he walked away. He had racial and death threats thrown his way........ man I hope you have a son that deals with the same crap and think locker room code needs to be upheld. Locker room code is a brotherhood. I would never make my brother feel less like a man. The idiots bringing up this stuff don't know what they're talking about.
The agreement here is unanimous that if Incognito made racial threats or certainly if there was anything illicit in nature, then absolutely a line had been crossed. Now it's down to a definitive statement of where the line is for the rest of it, the bullying, the intimidation, or however you choose to describe it.
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Old 11-06-2013   #194
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Martin broke the lockerroom code. I doubt he plays for the Dolphins, or any other teams in the NFL.
**** the locker room "code" and the default belief that treats abuse as permissive because it happens in a locker room. Did McQueary fear violating the locker room "code"? I'm with Jen who thinks that maybe we need to take a look at the broken-ness of this mentality.

there's nothing special about the sanctity of a locker room as a space that's held above or different from other spaces. It doesn't (or, rather, shouldn't) be some area of default immunity for extreme sources of harassment or abuse or bullying or whatever else.

I played. I am coaching. I'm in a locker room all the time.

I 'get' the locker room. But there are things that transcend the locker room and go beyond the code.

What makes the locker room different from any other work place or team spot?

"Teacher's Lounge code"?

"Executive Board Meeting code"?

You know who else broke the locker room "code"? Incognito. Phone messages. Texts. Even assuming you're right (and I think it's a cop out, personally) and the locker room is some sort of hallowed ground where anything goes and should be kept private, then doesn't Incognito lose that once he breaches the locker room?

How is what Martin did a violation of this floating, arbitrary definition of a coded space but not what Incognito did?

Before closing, I'll make one thing clear. Martin may very well never play another down in the NFL or suit up for another team. And maybe you'll once again fall all over yourself in an attempt to clap yourself on the back for being "right." That might be a correct guess on your part.

But that's ignoring the larger issue. And that's one where you're wrong.
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Old 11-06-2013   #195
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
The agreement here is unanimous that if Incognito made racial threats or certainly if there was anything illicit in nature, then absolutely a line had been crossed. Now it's down to a definitive statement of where the line is for the rest of it, the bullying, the intimidation, or however you choose to describe it.
For me there is nothing to talk about. I've seen hazing going on and seen guys beat up. It was stupid then and its stupid now. If one of those guys would have said something and the people responsible for it would have been punished I wouldn't think less of them. That's honestly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I loved every teammate I've ever played with. I always welcomed them with open arms and let them know that whatever they needed I'll help them. To me thats locker room code. A guy does have to earn his stripes and he should go through a little ribbing, but it should all be in fun. All this other BS to me is people who are losers in life trying to make it more than what it needs to be.
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Old 11-06-2013   #196
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Default Sources: Dolphins coaches asked Incognito to toughen up Martin

Sources: Dolphins coaches asked Incognito to toughen up Martin
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Miami Dolphins coaches asked player Richie Incognito, who was the offensive line's undisputed leader, to toughen up teammate Jonathan Martin after he missed a voluntary workout last spring, multiple sources told the Sun Sentinel.

The sources told the paper they believe that Incognito, who is accused of using racially incendiary language and bullying tactics against Martin, may have taken those orders too far.
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Old 11-06-2013   #197
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Or maybe sounds like an athlete who's ill equipped to deal with the macho mentality of the NFL, atleast that's what some other league vets are wondering ?
The other vets and their "code" are all part of a systemic disease that helps breed and nurture horrible human beings like Incognito.

There are a number of successful programs in the NFL and strong head coaches who ban hazing from their team and somehow they manage to do quite well and win Superbowls.

There's something inherently dysfunctional in the social structure and mores of a culture that relies on brutish behavior to force others to get in line with everyone else. Other teams have built cultures around brotherhood without using a stick to do so...Miami seems to have encouraged a culture of trying to prod a kid to be like everyone else while making no attempt to understand why he might not be like everyone else.

This kid needed a mentor and a brother, and instead he got "Hulk smash!" from one of the least respected players in the game who has been kicked out of every organization he's been with.
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Old 11-06-2013   #198
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

I just feel the need to point out that Antonio Smith has stood up to Incognito several times in his career, dating back to his time with the Cards. Hasn't stopped Incognito from being a bully toward him. In fact, not only did it not stop Incognito, but a significant segment of the NFL watching populace considered Smith's retaliation unacceptable, and he was fined and suspended for it. So for his efforts, Smith lost money, the team lost a player for a game, and he still has to deal with Incognito.

Yeah, that punch him in the mouth thing works real well, huh?
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Old 11-06-2013   #199
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Originally Posted by RazorOye View Post
**** the locker room "code" and the default belief that treats abuse as permissive because it happens in a locker room. Did McQueary fear violating the locker room "code"? I'm with Jen who thinks that maybe we need to take a look at the broken-ness of this mentality.

there's nothing special about the sanctity of a locker room as a space that's held above or different from other spaces. It doesn't (or, rather, shouldn't) be some area of default immunity for extreme sources of harassment or abuse or bullying or whatever else.

I played. I am coaching. I'm in a locker room all the time.

I 'get' the locker room. But there are things that transcend the locker room and go beyond the code.

What makes the locker room different from any other work place or team spot?

"Teacher's Lounge code"?

"Executive Board Meeting code"?

You know who else broke the locker room "code"? Incognito. Phone messages. Texts. Even assuming you're right (and I think it's a cop out, personally) and the locker room is some sort of hallowed ground where anything goes and should be kept private, then doesn't Incognito lose that once he breaches the locker room?

How is what Martin did a violation of this floating, arbitrary definition of a coded space but not what Incognito did?

Before closing, I'll make one thing clear. Martin may very well never play another down in the NFL or suit up for another team. And maybe you'll once again fall all over yourself in an attempt to clap yourself on the back for being "right." That might be a correct guess on your part.

But that's ignoring the larger issue. And that's one where you're wrong.
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Old 11-06-2013   #200
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Default Re: T Johnathan Martin headed for NFI list, may never return to the Dolphins

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Martin broke the lockerroom code. I doubt he plays for the Dolphins, or any other teams in the NFL.

Hiring Martin is more trouble than it's worth and very few of his teammates will respect him if he tries to play for another team. Martin effectively killed his career, but he reversed the power structure. Not that football ever meant that much to him in the 1st place.
The lockeroom attitudes are also why gay players will never come out of the closet.
You don't know that.

But one thing for sure is I'll never encourage my sons to play football. Its clearly not worth it. There are better ways to learn life lessons than this crap, and thats before we even get into actual football injuries.
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