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View Poll Results: Who gets the start at QB after the buy?
Keenum 162 88.52%
Schaub 21 11.48%
Voters: 183. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-31-2013   #501
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Its not a waste if u get it right like sd and dallas did. As I said its evaluation. Starting with the cam newton class, it looks like carolina,cincy, and 49ers were right. The jury is still out on locker and ponder,gabbert is trash. Even withbthe failures of gabbert, jax cant afford to pass bridgewater or other qbs who may be rated as a franchise qb. A team can fool themselves like parcells did and take jake long 1st and decided to get chad henne in the 2nd passing on matt ryan. Well 5 yrs later, we seenhow thats worked out.
Certainly with the new CBA, taking multiple shots at QBs in the 1st round is much more plausible... Before 2011, missing on a top 10 QB was a death nail because of the size of the contract. However, now it is a very manageable contract which not only means you aren't married to him but also that you can bring in/have competitions with him, etc... That pick no longer defines your team's identity for 4 or 5 years, unless you decide to let it.

So, from that standpoint, your point is even more true.
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Old 10-31-2013   #502
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
I totally agree with Leebigeztx that I do not want the Texans to ignore the QB position early in the draft by placing too much faith/trust in Keenum, even if he looks good the rest of the year.

What I would want to avoid, to your point, is a mindset that is determined to go get a QB early in the draft that is not based on sound evaluation that he is a guy worthy of the pick and the time investment.

I think the reason why teams miss on QBs in the draft so often is that they have predetermined to get one- overpay for him, while they really have no idea/reason to believe the player is likely to work out,
Completely agree.

& if there is any real criticism of Smith, it's here. He's been here since 2007 & hasn't managed to stock-pile future draft picks. The currency for being able to move around in the draft & get "your guy."

He does fine, moving down & acquiring additional picks. But if we've got to move up to get the guy they believe will be a franchise player, we'll have to give up much of our draft, possibly some of our future draft to get him.

If we had a second first round pick for example, I wouldn't mind gambling with one to select a franchise QB. I'd hate to only have one, use it on a QB that doesn't work out & include our 2nd, 4th, & 5th to get him.

I'd also be upset if I ever found out they thought a guy was worth the cost, but didn't pull the trigger.

As others have mentioned, we've been losing players left & right the last three years & getting little in return in-so-much as future draft picks.
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Old 10-31-2013   #503
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
A team can fool themselves like parcells did and take jake long 1st and decided to get chad henne in the 2nd passing on matt ryan. Well 5 yrs later, we seenhow thats worked out.
I don't think you can lay that all on the GM & scouting. Jake Long & Chad Henne was a good plan. If that were Andy Reid, Sean Peyton, Jim Harbaugh, or Gary Kubiak coaching/developing those players, it would have gone very differently.
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Old 11-02-2013   #504
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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I don't think you can lay that all on the GM & scouting. Jake Long & Chad Henne was a good plan. If that were Andy Reid, Sean Peyton, Jim Harbaugh, or Gary Kubiak coaching/developing those players, it would have gone very differently.
The fact is the most important player touches the ball 60 times a game. When eli,ben,rodgers,and brees won sbs,who were their left tackles? Joe thomas is regarded as one of if not the best lt in football,yet his teams have been dismal. Why? They missed on quinn,passed on flacco,missed on weeden,and didn't want to give up a 2nd for rg3. You don't have a qb,your team will be sorry with the new rules.
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Old 11-02-2013   #505
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Why? They missed on quinn,passed on flacco,missed on weeden,and didn't want to give up a 2nd for rg3. You don't have a qb,your team will be sorry with the new rules.
Flacco wouldn't be anyone if he went to Cleveland, & Quin very well could have won a Super Bowl in Baltimore. The fact is we'll never really know, but you're saying the Browns missed on Quinn, Weeden, & every other QB they've had there when they may very well have ruined those guys.

There's more to it than just drafting a QB. He's got to fit & you have to support him. I'm sure Peyton Manning would have multiple SBs if he had a coach who knew how to build a team around him & actually help him get where he wanted to go. (Jim Mora... pfft). & I guarantee you Trent Dilfer couldn't have won a Super Bowl without that team & that coach.
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Old 11-02-2013   #506
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Its not a waste if u get it right like sd and dallas did. As I said its evaluation. Starting with the cam newton class, it looks like carolina,cincy, and 49ers were right. The jury is still out on locker and ponder,gabbert is trash. Even withbthe failures of gabbert, jax cant afford to pass bridgewater or other qbs who may be rated as a franchise qb. A team can fool themselves like parcells did and take jake long 1st and decided to get chad henne in the 2nd passing on matt ryan. Well 5 yrs later, we seenhow thats worked out.
Aren't you moving the goal posts here, Leebig?

Both Dalton and Kaepernick were second rounder; both of whom I thought had potential to be starters.

My point was about first rounders; on those, I only prefer to spend a high pick on "sure-fire" starters with great upside to become "franchise" QB; in recent drafts, that would be Luck, RG III, Newton, Bradford, and Stafford.
But with those guys, you've had to have a good draft position to start with; otherwise, you would have to pay too much to move up; it might cost your team dearly.

Even with Bradford, there's the risk with injury, let alone a guy like RG III.
Personally, I was never on board with trading the farm for him.
Look at the guys the Rams got in exchange:
In 2012, they got Michael Brockers, Janorie Jenkins, and Iseah Pead.
Brockers started 12 games in 2012 and 8 so far this year at DT (with 3.5 sacks).
Jenkins started 13 and 8 respectively (5 INTs - 3 for TDs; he also forced 3 fumbles and recovered one for a TD).
In 2013, they got Alec Ogletree, Stedman Bailey, and Zac Stacy.
Ogletree has started all 8 games, and is their leading solo tackler.
Bailey hasn't seen much playing time besides ST duties.
Pead has been hampered by injury, but Stacy rose to the top of the depth chart.
And the Rams still owns th Redskins' first round pick for next year.

That's a tough price to pay to move up just four notches.
What would the Texans have to pay for such a trade up?
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Old 11-02-2013   #507
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
Certainly with the new CBA, taking multiple shots at QBs in the 1st round is much more plausible... Before 2011, missing on a top 10 QB was a death nail because of the size of the contract. However, now it is a very manageable contract which not only means you aren't married to him but also that you can bring in/have competitions with him, etc... That pick no longer defines your team's identity for 4 or 5 years, unless you decide to let it.

So, from that standpoint, your point is even more true.
Let's so a re-draft to see if all this is applicable to the Texans.
Last year, the highest drafted QB was EJ Manuel, at 16th overall.

Leebig and I, we both like his potential (Leebig more so than I); however, based on the trade value chart, at exactly 1,000 points, the Texans would have to give up the first and second draft choices (Hopkins and Swearinger.)

Personally, I wouldn't do it, not then, not now.
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Old 11-02-2013   #508
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

In 2012, even Tannehill was cost prohibitive to the Texans at 8th overall.
I didn't like him all that much to sell the farm to begin with.

Weeden, at 22nd, has always been a No-Go for me.
Instead, I suggested Wilson and/or Cousins.
They were both affordable and had none of the risk associated with the high cost to acquire a RG III or Tannehill.
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Old 11-02-2013   #509
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

In 2011, I correctly predicted that Newton would be the number one overall pick.

Locker at no 8 and Ponder at no 12 were definitely not worth it.
And to think that the Texans would have to forego Watt for them; do you realize how ridiculous the premium put on the QB position can be at times?

Gabbert, at no 10, was already declared a bust by Kiwitexan, and I was pretty close with his sentiment.

Instead, I was on board with Dalton at 35 and Kaepernick at 36.

So far, I've been able to avoid the pitfall of falling in love with a QB in the first round.

My choices cost less and have been producing more, wouldn't you agree?
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Old 11-02-2013   #510
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

In 2010, I liked Bradford, but there was no way I would give up the farm to trade up from 20.

I said "No" to Tebow even though I liked him very much as a college QB; I never thought his game would translate to the pro.

I'm glad the Texans drafted Kareem Jackson instead.

I didn't like Clausen, even at 48th overall;
I prefer McCoy at 85th; I saw his floor as a good backup QB.
A late third was a good spot for him, while I rated him higher than Clausen.
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Old 11-02-2013   #511
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

In 2009, I wasn't paying much attention to QBs;
I only stated that either Cushing or Matthew would be fine for me, even though I tend to rate players a little lower (and ending up not having enough guys on the big board); I was just being cautious.

How much would it cost for the Texans to move up from 15 to 1?
I wouldn't do it no matter what.

To move up to no 5 to get Sanchez?
We ought to be thankful the Texans didn't do it.

Josh Freeman at 17 was feasible, but I didn't watch any of his college games, so I had no comment.
The Texans wouldn't have drafted a QB with Schaub under contract at that time anyway.
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Old 11-02-2013   #512
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

The same goes for 2008; the Texans can't afford to trade up to no 3 for Matt Ryan.

It just happened that I watched a bunch of QB play this year.
I even commented that I liked Ryan even though I estimated that he was in the spread about 70% of the time at Boston College.

I had pegged D Brown as the 8th OT to be drafted (even though my sentiment was that he was a better prospect than that).
I also noted that he would be a nice fit with the Texans ZBS, the way he can operates on the second level.
With Schaub on the roster, it makes even less sense to try to move up for Ryan.

Flacco at 18, I didn't have a problem with, if your team needs a QB.
Once on a while, I would agree with ThreeToePeed (a poster who used to frequent the draft forum), who liked Flacco a little more than I did.
Neither of us worried about him playing at Delaware; so you see that I do evaluate players according to their competition and was able to dig out the lesser-known names.
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Old 11-02-2013   #513
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

Obviously I wasn't impressed with the 2007 class, I agreed with TexanMike when he first presented a trade scenario for Matt Schaub.

Personally, I thought it was a little costly, giving up two seconds and a couple of spots in the draft.

Jamarcus Russell was one of the hypes I could never figure out; I didn't think Quinn can be a starter in the NFL either at 22nd.

Kolb (drafted at no. 36), a product from UH, I had a problem with him holding on to the ball too long; I even noted that he took more sacks in college than Carr did with the Texans (prorated to a 16-game schedule, and per pass attempts.)
That's not going to cut it in the pro.
And why does a QB hold on the ball too long?
I don't even need to answer that question.

My wanting to trade for Schaub ought to tell you that I have no homerism.
Keenum is a much better QB than Kolb ever was.
I even said so after Keenum went undrafted while Kolb was having chances to prove himself as a pro.
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Old 11-02-2013   #514
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

In 2006, VY was another great college QB that I liked watching.
The guy had potential; the question for me was that "can he improve his passing game while toning down a bit on his running game", both are benificial to him in the long run.

I had great debates about Mario, VY, and Bush with friends and draftniks; I settled on Mario; the Texans getting stuck with Carr notwithstanding.

My bet was that Mario Williams would end up having the best career out of the three. (If one of them get side railed by major injury, the bet is off.)

Well, this doesn't support the reasoning for going all gung-ho with a QB as a high-choice draft pick either, does it?

Matt Leinart was another good college QB, but I noted that he was helped tremendously by an offensive roster that was all drafted to the NFL, all eleven of them.
Drafting him at no 10 would not have helped the cause of those who want a QB in the high order of the draft now would it?

I never watched Cutler in college; so I don't have an opinion on him at draft time.
At no 11 overall, do you guys think he was worth it?
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Old 11-02-2013   #515
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Completely agree.

& if there is any real criticism of Smith, it's here. He's been here since 2007 & hasn't managed to stock-pile future draft picks. The currency for being able to move around in the draft & get "your guy."

He does fine, moving down & acquiring additional picks. But if we've got to move up to get the guy they believe will be a franchise player, we'll have to give up much of our draft, possibly some of our future draft to get him.

If we had a second first round pick for example, I wouldn't mind gambling with one to select a franchise QB. I'd hate to only have one, use it on a QB that doesn't work out & include our 2nd, 4th, & 5th to get him.

I'd also be upset if I ever found out they thought a guy was worth the cost, but didn't pull the trigger.

As others have mentioned, we've been losing players left & right the last three years & getting little in return in-so-much as future draft picks.
I think Smith does not trade up often because we always need every pick. We have not yet developed players that allow us to let vets go for future picks. I thought 2014 was to be the year we could go BPA, whoops.
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Old 11-02-2013   #516
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

You're missing the point '76. No one is saying the Texans should trade their entire draft to go up & get a QB. Leebigeztx is saying if you are Jacksonville & a possible franchise guy is there, you can't afford to pass, because the QB position means that much to a football team.

That goes for any team with a "question" at the QB position. According to many, there's going to be at least one potential franchise QB available when we're on the clock, especially if we maintain our current position.

It's the equivalent of passing on Rodgers, Dalton, Kaepernick & Wilson when we were on the clock. Wouldn't have cost us anything but the player we took instead (Travis Johnson in the case of Rodgers). Imagine how our team would be today if we had selected Aaron Rodgers instead of Travis Johnson.... that's what Leebigeztx is saying.

dalemurphy is saying with the new CBA, you're not as tied to that QB (Gabbert) as we were with Carr, even though there was only a year left on his contract & anyone who couldn't tell Carr was a lost cause at that point (not entirely his own fault) shouldn't have been making personnel decisions.
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Old 11-02-2013   #517
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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I think Smith does not trade up often because we always need every pick. We have not yet developed players that allow us to let vets go for future picks. I thought 2014 was to be the year we could go BPA, whoops.
Who would we have picked instead of Hopkins if we had gone BPA in 2013?

In hindsight, I can't say I'd rather of had any of the players selected after him... Ogletree? Maybe.

Would have been nice to be able to target a guy like Justin Pugh & go get him, then make similar moves to get Robert Woods in the second & Shawn Williams in the third, but that's hindsight & I really like Hopkins so far.
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Old 11-03-2013   #518
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Aren't you moving the goal posts here, Leebig?

Both Dalton and Kaepernick were second rounder; both of whom I thought had potential to be starters.

My point was about first rounders; on those, I only prefer to spend a high pick on "sure-fire" starters with great upside to become "franchise" QB; in recent drafts, that would be Luck, RG III, Newton, Bradford, and Stafford.
But with those guys, you've had to have a good draft position to start with; otherwise, you would have to pay too much to move up; it might cost your team dearly.

Even with Bradford, there's the risk with injury, let alone a guy like RG III.
Personally, I was never on board with trading the farm for him.
Look at the guys the Rams got in exchange:
In 2012, they got Michael Brockers, Janorie Jenkins, and Iseah Pead.
Brockers started 12 games in 2012 and 8 so far this year at DT (with 3.5 sacks).
Jenkins started 13 and 8 respectively (5 INTs - 3 for TDs; he also forced 3 fumbles and recovered one for a TD).
In 2013, they got Alec Ogletree, Stedman Bailey, and Zac Stacy.
Ogletree has started all 8 games, and is their leading solo tackler.
Bailey hasn't seen much playing time besides ST duties.
Pead has been hampered by injury, but Stacy rose to the top of the depth chart.
And the Rams still owns th Redskins' first round pick for next year.

That's a tough price to pay to move up just four notches.
What would the Texans have to pay for such a trade up?
Rg3 was a probowl qb and led his team to 10 wins despite a piss poor defense. Not only that, the anchor of a contract and lack of production from bradford despite what the rams turn into those picks.

Im not sayihg the texans shouldve moved up to get qbs in the past 3yrs,but I do think and have said they shouldve drafted a qb in at least the 1st 3 rds the last couple of years. Im not saying you cant get a high caliber qb in the 2nd rd, im saying you better be right. Sf moved up to get ck which tells you what they thought about him. I dont think they should pass on a qb they have evaluated as a franchise qb because they have keenum. The pricess of waiting till the 2nd rd is very risky because teams underneath tend to jump becuase the teams in the late 20s already have their qb and are looking to move down.
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Old 11-03-2013   #519
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

It's a tad premature to call any of Kaepernick, Dalton, or Wilson "franchise" QBs
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Schaub will have a Flacco like chip on his shoulder this season and win the MVP!
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Old 11-03-2013   #520
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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You're missing the point '76. No one is saying the Texans should trade their entire draft to go up & get a QB. Leebigeztx is saying if you are Jacksonville & a possible franchise guy is there, you can't afford to pass, because the QB position means that much to a football team.

That goes for any team with a "question" at the QB position. According to many, there's going to be at least one potential franchise QB available when we're on the clock, especially if we maintain our current position.

It's the equivalent of passing on Rodgers, Dalton, Kaepernick & Wilson when we were on the clock. Wouldn't have cost us anything but the player we took instead (Travis Johnson in the case of Rodgers). Imagine how our team would be today if we had selected Aaron Rodgers instead of Travis Johnson.... that's what Leebigeztx is saying.

dalemurphy is saying with the new CBA, you're not as tied to that QB (Gabbert) as we were with Carr, even though there was only a year left on his contract & anyone who couldn't tell Carr was a lost cause at that point (not entirely his own fault) shouldn't have been making personnel decisions.
Yep, pretty much. Even this year in those draft threads, posterd were asking who the texans couldnt pass, I said geno smith. Even with his troubles or up and down games, I thought his skillset was perfect for kubiak. He arm talent,feet, mobility were all positives. When you see the bombs to stephen hill and santonio holmes, you have to think with a qb guy like kubes,a little seasoning and he could be that guy. You look at the wr depth, I really like terrance williams in the 2nd rd. Thats just me though.

This year, the texans will probably be looking at boyd and hundley where theyre draftihg. Hundley probably needs at least 1 more yr of seasoning whilenboyd needs mechanical work. Even with those questions, you have to draft one of them with your pick if you have anfranchise qbbgrade on them.
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