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View Poll Results: Who gets the start at QB after the buy?
Keenum 162 88.52%
Schaub 21 11.48%
Voters: 183. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-29-2013   #421
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Maybe ur having trouble understanding contracts. They will owe him 0 because the rest of his money is salary. They already paid his bonus money and didn't stretch it. Thbey paid it upfront vs pro rating it. That tells me they had doubts about schaub all along. They cut him at the end of this season,they will have the same count against the cap than it is if they cut us.
They might owe him 0, if they already paid him all of his bonus $, but the cap hit on that bonus has been prorated, and they WILL take a cap hit.
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Old 10-29-2013   #422
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by Exascor View Post
Just to clarify - the Texans couldn't cut Schaub (or trade him) this year without absorbing his remaining signing bonus. There's not enough cap room to absorb that without restructuring 2-3 contacts.
While it serves no purpose whatsoever, the Texans could cut him with no impact to the 2013 cap. Any unamortized bonus related to cuts made after June 1 is applied to the following year's cap. Therefore, the $10.5 Million bonus hit would go against next years cap. What would be lost would be the opportunity to cut him and designate him as a June 1 cut after the season's over. Doing that would move 2/3's of the unamortized bonus ($7 Million) to the 2015 cap number.

The reason it serves no purpose is because Schaub's entire 2013 base salary is guaranteed, so there's literally no impact to the 2013 cap by cutting him. There would be the gain of a roster spot, but if that's all they're looking for, they can simply IR him.
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Old 10-29-2013   #423
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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Maybe ur having trouble understanding contracts. They will owe him 0 because the rest of his money is salary. They already paid his bonus money and didn't stretch it. Thbey paid it upfront vs pro rating it. That tells me they had doubts about schaub all along. They cut him at the end of this season,they will have the same count against the cap than it is if they cut us.




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Originally Posted by paycheck71 View Post
They might owe him 0, if they already paid him all of his bonus $, but the cap hit on that bonus has been prorated, and they WILL take a cap hit.
It blows my mind if I think about it too much. Still, paycheck said the way I understand it. The cap hit for the prorated signing bonus is still owed even if the money has been paid.
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Old 10-29-2013   #424
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Maybe ur having trouble understanding contracts. They will owe him 0 because the rest of his money is salary. They already paid his bonus money and didn't stretch it. Thbey paid it upfront vs pro rating it. That tells me they had doubts about schaub all along. They cut him at the end of this season,they will have the same count against the cap than it is if they cut us.
If it's characterized as a bonus, which the $17.5 Million that he got upfront was, then it's amortized over the contract (up to a max of 5 years) regardless of the timing of the payment. Thru the 2013 season, $7 Million of Matt's bonus has been amortized, meaning that even though he got it in 2012, the remaining $10.5 Million will hit the cap in the 2014 league year or later.
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Old 10-29-2013   #425
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
While it serves no purpose whatsoever, the Texans could cut him with no impact to the 2013 cap. Any unamortized bonus related to cuts made after June 1 is applied to the following year's cap.
Thanks for the clarification. I didn't think about the difference between cutting and trading. MSR.
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Old 10-29-2013   #426
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by Exascor View Post
Thanks for the clarification. I didn't think about the difference between cutting and trading. MSR.
A trade would work the same way. The exact language from the CBA is as follows:

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(2) For any player removed from the Team’s roster or whose Contract is assigned via waivers or trade after June 1, except in the Final League Year, any unamor-tized signing bonus amounts for future years will be included fully in Team Salary at the start of the next League Year.
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Old 10-29-2013   #427
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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
A trade would work the same way. The exact language from the CBA is as follows:
Well crap...I know I read that they couldn't trade due to the cap hit. Meh - thanks again.
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Old 10-29-2013   #428
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Well crap...I know I read that they couldn't trade due to the cap hit. Meh - thanks again.
I think the reason they can't trade him is because nobody wants a 32 year old, gimpy (when not completely stationary), raggedy armed, pick-six throwing QB who's scheduled to make a $10 Million base salary next year. And while that base salary isn't guaranteed, the remaining amount on his 2013 base salary of approx. $3.8 Million would be.
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Old 10-29-2013   #429
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
If it's characterized as a bonus, which the $17.5 Million that he got upfront was, then it's amortized over the contract (up to a max of 5 years) regardless of the timing of the payment. Thru the 2013 season, $7 Million of Matt's bonus has been amortized, meaning that even though he got it in 2012, the remaining $10.5 Million will hit the cap in the 2014 league year or later.
Just because u give a signing bonus,doest mean you have to prorate it over 5 yrs or however long the contract is. Teams will use roster bonus,signing bonus,workout bonus that doesn't have to be ammoritized. They paid the money upfront without stretching it out. He had 17m in bonus money, that was paid already so if a situation like this can be resolved without a big hit.
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Old 10-29-2013   #430
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
I have struggled to understand how/why are play-action passing game has not produced deep passing opportunities as it always has since Kubiak has been here. When I went back and looked at the games, including games when we were running the ball well (1st half vs. StLouis, for instance)... The safeties just dropped deep unless it was a blitz and bit on nothing... What appeared open, looking at the coaching tape, were seems and deep-ins at about 20 yards. I think Schaub has lossed a little bit of zip on the ball since the foot injury, and he simply could not afford any diminishing of his arm, which combined with longer release was already marginal by NFL standards. Now, teams dare him to fit the ball downfield- below the safeties... and it he can't consistently do that.

I'm not sure, based on one game's eyeball test, whether Keenum's arm is stronger (I think it is at this point). I do know his release is quicker, which means the defense has less reaction time. Also, his added mobility create situations for big plays in the passing game as well. I think that is why we saw the passing game look different. He hit receivers at different points in their routes, etc... The Posey 40 yard play was an example of Keenum's quicker delivery, for instance.

I have no idea whether Keenum is the answer. Heck, I thought Schaub looked good this year, other than a few horrible plays. It wasn't until I saw Keenum playing that I recognized the extent of Schaub's limitations. But, I am excited to see what he does and how the offense looks with some athleticism back there. Even if he is not the long term answer, his presence and abilities will reveal a lot more about the offensive talent, playmaking ability of the receivers, and how the talent can excel (or not), in the Kubiak/Dennison version of the West Coast offense. I'm looking forward to the reappearance of the bootleg as a weapon instead as a moment of dread.
I never understood why schaub was a target of kubiak in the 1st place. I think he generally thought he fix carr who on just talent look great in the wco. The fact the job timer is ticking and carr wasn't the answer,they reached for a system guy vs a talent guy.Since they couldn't fix Carr,they got schaub because he could run the wco offense in terms of language. Nevermind that he's not mobile nor has a big arm,just he speaks the language. That to me is not enough from a talent point of view.

I think case fits the profile better than schaub,but its the same thing in terms of talent. Case is mobile and has a quick release,but the wr route conversion and the ability to push the ball down the field against coverage is where he lacks. The dna for that qb isn't really hard to diagnose. Elway,cutler,rogers,mcnabb,rg3,steve young,brett favre. Compare those guys arm talent and skillset to case keenum or schaub. There is no comparison. So what you do is you link up qbs you can draft that have these qualities from a skillset.

Just as an example from watching the tape all 22,the plays didn't change. The formations did,but the routes were the same. To case credit,he shot his gun which I applaud. He threw the pass to hopkins and he threw other passes schaub wouldn't have ever thrown. Compare that to kaeperncik vs alex smith and it was night and day in terms of routes. Why? Because CK has a bigger,stronger,more accurate arm and will shoot his gun also. All of a sudden,the flag,deep comeback and post routes came back in the playbook. Those are not only timing throws,but arm talent throws. Looking at the all 22, we didn't run any route different or at any different depth than they did with schaub. This is a problem,championship caliber team problem.
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Old 10-29-2013   #431
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Just because u give a signing bonus,doest mean you have to prorate it over 5 yrs or however long the contract is. Teams will use roster bonus,signing bonus,workout bonus that doesn't have to be ammoritized. They paid the money upfront without stretching it out. He had 17m in bonus money, that was paid already so if a situation like this can be resolved without a big hit.
How about you provide some support for your assertion it was paid as a roster bonus?

FYI - roster and workout bonuses are not a subset of signing bonus. They have different names for a reason.

Spotrac and rotoworld are both showing a %17.5 mil signing bonus and they know the difference between roster bonus and signing bonus.
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Old 10-29-2013   #432
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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I never understood why schaub was a target of kubiak in the 1st place. I think he generally thought he fix carr who on just talent look great in the wco. The fact the job timer is ticking and carr wasn't the answer,they reached for a system guy vs a talent guy.Since they couldn't fix Carr,they got schaub because he could run the wco offense in terms of language. Nevermind that he's not mobile nor has a big arm,just he speaks the language. That to me is not enough from a talent point of view.

I think case fits the profile better than schaub,but its the same thing in terms of talent. Case is mobile and has a quick release,but the wr route conversion and the ability to push the ball down the field against coverage is where he lacks. The dna for that qb isn't really hard to diagnose. Elway,cutler,rogers,mcnabb,rg3,steve young,brett favre. Compare those guys arm talent and skillset to case keenum or schaub. There is no comparison. So what you do is you link up qbs you can draft that have these qualities from a skillset.

Just as an example from watching the tape all 22,the plays didn't change. The formations did,but the routes were the same. To case credit,he shot his gun which I applaud. He threw the pass to hopkins and he threw other passes schaub wouldn't have ever thrown. Compare that to kaeperncik vs alex smith and it was night and day in terms of routes. Why? Because CK has a bigger,stronger,more accurate arm and will shoot his gun also. All of a sudden,the flag,deep comeback and post routes came back in the playbook. Those are not only timing throws,but arm talent throws. Looking at the all 22, we didn't run any route different or at any different depth than they did with schaub. This is a problem,championship caliber team problem.
Like it or not, that's Kubiak's offense. He designs routes to make it very difficult to defend all the branches off of the route tree. It just takes a QB with the sack to either stand there to get it done or to move around and get it done. We watched Matt do it in the '10 season with the worst defense in the NFL.

I know it's way too early to crown #7 as the next great thing but I was certainly impressed with his showing in KC. That's a tough play ground and the "kid" did good. For the first time since we started the skid we're on I'm really looking forward to Sunday night's game. For the first time in a long time I'm not a'scaird of a prime time game. I sick-n-tired of watching the game day wrap ups and being the laughing stock of the NFL. I want to see Case Keenum step up and be the savior many have touted him to be. He's got my full support to take what's left of this team and take us forward.

Go Case. Go Texans!
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Old 10-29-2013   #433
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Just as an example from watching the tape all 22,the plays didn't change. The formations did,but the routes were the same. To case credit,he shot his gun which I applaud. He threw the pass to hopkins and he threw other passes schaub wouldn't have ever thrown. Compare that to kaeperncik vs alex smith and it was night and day in terms of routes. Why? Because CK has a bigger,stronger,more accurate arm and will shoot his gun also. All of a sudden,the flag,deep comeback and post routes came back in the playbook. Those are not only timing throws,but arm talent throws. Looking at the all 22, we didn't run any route different or at any different depth than they did with schaub. This is a problem,championship caliber team problem.
Wait. I'm not knocking you, but hasn't your point of contention regarding Keenum been that you claim he has a week arm because of what you saw in workouts? Or, are you talking about Keenum's bigger, stronger, more accurate arm relative to Schuab's flacid member?

Either way, that's an upgrade to Schaub, yeah?

Your last bit is confusing, though. Are you saying that Keenum CAN or CANNOT throw these post routes, flags, etc al?
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Old 10-29-2013   #434
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
Just because u give a signing bonus,doest mean you have to prorate it over 5 yrs or however long the contract is. Teams will use roster bonus,signing bonus,workout bonus that doesn't have to be ammoritized. They paid the money upfront without stretching it out. He had 17m in bonus money, that was paid already so if a situation like this can be resolved without a big hit.
You're either not reading what was already explained to you by 3 different people, or you don't understand the difference between paying a player and taking a cap hit for what's been paid.
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Old 10-29-2013   #435
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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The dna for that qb isn't really hard to diagnose. Elway,cutler,rogers,mcnabb,rg3,steve young,brett favre. Compare those guys arm talent and skillset to case keenum or schaub. There is no comparison. .
how are you going to compare case to elite qbs when he hasn't even played at home yet and hasn't had time to adjust? give the guy some room.

remember, case played the best among the other 7 teams this year against the chiefs. he's better than all those guys.

there's a thread on here with a bunch a people saying case would never start in the pros. there's a bunch of people that said case would miserably fail against the best defense in the chiefs and we'd be seeing pick 6's. case is short and he's going to have a lot of balls batted down.

i'll take a young case than those terrible plays favre and mcnabb has made at the end of their career. not saying case is the savior but he'll need some time to grow.
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Old 10-29-2013   #436
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

I aint gonna lie I did this when I heard Case was the starter, and Schaub is being evaluated on a weekly basis.

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Old 10-29-2013   #437
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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People keep saying that the play calling changed. Is that really true? Other than playing out of the pistol formation instead of from under the center, the offense is still the same. Maybe I'm wrong, but what I thought I saw was Keenum looking for receivers deep more than Schaub and not just checking down on every play. He was able to extend a few plays with his mobility, and we know that's something Schaub can't do. Later in the game, Kubiak's hand was forced due to injuries to RB's and he had to go with empty backfield, but I don't think he's going to choose to do that if he has a healthy RB. It's not like Kubiak CALLS a 1 yd pass to RB in the flat, it's just the last option on the play, and it's up to the QB to decide where to go with the ball.
You're right for the most part, the plays Kubiak has been calling for Case aren't much different from the plays he calls for Matt. Matt decides where to throw the ball. If you were at our previous home games, you should have seen Andre & Hopkins getting all kinds of open... but they weren't "open enough" for Schaub.

At the same time, Kubiak was running more 3 WR sets than he had in the past & taking that shot into the end-zone on 3rd & 3... it's been a long time since I've seen Kubiak take a shot on that down & distance (then again, that could very well be Schaub checking down, or playing for the first down instead of the touch down).
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Old 10-29-2013   #438
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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They didnt stretch his bonus money.
Yeah, they did. If the entire bonus had hit the cap upon signing, Schaub's cap hit in 2012 would have been over $25 million. It wasn't.

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Maybe ur having trouble understanding contracts.
Someone is certainly having trouble understanding contracts.
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Old 10-29-2013   #439
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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remember, case played the best among the other 7 teams this year against the chiefs. he's better than all those guys.
If you remember, a big knock on using stats to define Matt Schaub, is that this is a very QB friendly offense & Kubiak does a good job of getting guys wide open.

Remember, that Matt Schaub was a third round draft pick, his arm isn't anything to write home about, & Peyton Manning runs better than Schaub, but Kubiak has made him a viable starter.

& while our run game left with Arian early in the first qtr, we stuck with it enough to keep the defense honest, as our pass plays look exactly like our run plays for the first second or so.

To say that Case is better than Romo, Vick, or even Locker at this point... is putting the cart before the horse. Yes, he had a better game than they did, yes he had a better QB rating, but it's wishful thinking to expect Case to go toe to toe with Peyton Manning like Romo did or beat him like Luck did (& I don't like Luck).

This offense is perfect for him to grow into the best QB he can be. His time will come.
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Old 10-30-2013   #440
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Default Re: Who gets the start at QB after the bye?

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how are you going to compare case to elite qbs when he hasn't even played at home yet and hasn't had time to adjust? give the guy some room.

remember, case played the best among the other 7 teams this year against the chiefs. he's better than all those guys.

there's a thread on here with a bunch a people saying case would never start in the pros. there's a bunch of people that said case would miserably fail against the best defense in the chiefs and we'd be seeing pick 6's. case is short and he's going to have a lot of balls batted down.

i'll take a young case than those terrible plays favre and mcnabb has made at the end of their career. not saying case is the savior but he'll need some time to grow.
I'm comparing his talent to the talent of those guys. There is a prototype to the kind of guy to run this system. Maybe case will be the next jeff garcia in this offense,I don't know. If he plays as well as garcia did in sf, is that good enough to contend for this division and a title? I'm not sure especially with luck in the same division.. I don't think they should pass a very talented qb thinking case could be like garcia either. Push comes to shove, you can trade case or the draft pick.
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