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Old 07-11-2005   #61
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
But, as a 4th round pick, he had no ability to demand a signing bonus. Instead, he was simply slotted into position. He had no say in who he would play for nor did he have power to negotiate his deal.

Yet, 2 years later, after he's proven himself to be much more valuable than what he's been paid, you would say that it's wrong for him to use the only leverage he has in order to get a signing bonus that gives him security before he goes out and risks his health for the team again this year?
YES, he signed the contract.

Yes Texas is a fire at will state, its not a "renegotiate at will" state. If I sign a contract I'm expected to fullfill my end of the contract and can still be let go at anytime.

Davis was the steal of the draft...WHY?....because not only have we've gotten production out of him beyond our wildest dreams, but because he hardly counts against the cap. Thats what makes a steal a STEAL

Also I don't see anything wrong with the fact that organizations can cut the player and the contract. In the "SALARY CAP" era that we play in, I don't see how you could have it any other way, It would be impossible. Think about it you would have greedy players landing huge contracts that they know are garranteed so they would be cadillacing, having nothing to play for, eating up your teams cap. You would be stuck with team destroying deals with NO WAY out of them and NO WAY to sign your deserving players, like D. Davis, your team would be SCREWED for YEARS, kinda like the NBA.

You can't have it both ways either. The players get paid to produce and when they don't produce, do you see them handing money back over....NO. You talk about the players protecting themselves, well this is the only way owners and gms can protect themselves, which in turn protects us "fans" from having to watch one of our NFL teams turn into the "LA Clippers" or the "New York Knicks" I'm sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the players. They play a game for a living, (while I'm fixing to have to go off to war) regardless if they make 500,000 dollars a year (which by the way isn't a small salary so don't cry for DD. He gets paid damn good money to do what he does) or 5 mil. a year. Teachers get paid peanuts and their professions are 100x more important in the big scheme of things than a insignificant football player.

I like DD and he has been great for this team and he'll be rewarded for it, all he has to do is show up and play and the rest will take care of itself.
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Old 07-11-2005   #62
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As far as i know, he goes to work and trains with the rest of the team, yet. So if his work ethic allowed him to participate in the OTA's, why not the Training Camp also? He knows that the Texans want to keep him and it shouldn't be so difficult to arrange the Cap numbers for 2005, so he surely will fit under the Cap even with a new contract.
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Old 07-11-2005   #63
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Originally Posted by Carr Bomb
YES, he signed the contract.

Yes Texas is a fire at will state, its not a "renegotiate at will" state. If I sign a contract I'm expected to fullfill my end of the contract and can still be let go at anytime.

Davis was the steal of the draft...WHY?....because not only have we've gotten production out of him beyond our wildest dreams, but because he hardly counts against the cap. Thats what makes a steal a STEAL

Also I don't see anything wrong with the fact that organizations can cut the player and the contract. In the "SALARY CAP" era that we play in, I don't see how you could have it any other way, It would be impossible. Think about it you would have greedy players landing huge contracts that they know are garranteed so they would be cadillacing, having nothing to play for, eating up your teams cap. You would be stuck with team destroying deals with NO WAY out of them and NO WAY to sign your deserving players, like D. Davis, your team would be SCREWED for YEARS, kinda like the NBA.

You can't have it both ways either. The players get paid to produce and when they don't produce, do you see them handing money back over....NO. You talk about the players protecting themselves, well this is the only way owners and gms can protect themselves, which in turn protects us "fans" from having to watch one of our NFL teams turn into the "LA Clippers" or the "New York Knicks" I'm sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the players. They play a game for a living, (while I'm fixing to have to go off to war) regardless if they make 500,000 dollars a year (which by the way isn't a small salary so don't cry for DD. He gets paid damn good money to do what he does) or 5 mil. a year. Teachers get paid peanuts and their professions are 100x more important in the big scheme of things than a insignificant football player.

First of all, when players don't perform they get cut. So, yeah, they don't get paid anymore. Sometimes, the player does perform but he still gets cut (Jamie Sharper).

Yes, $500,000 is a lot of money. However, not many teachers I know suffer injuries that prevent them from teaching for more than 3 or 4 years. The life of a running back is very short. It is likely that Davis' skills and marketability will diminish by his 5th season. Therefore, it is prudent for him to pressure the team to renegotiate. Teachers may be more important but their skills are not nearly as marketable as a professional football player. Also, teachers aren't asked to perform at a high level in order to retain their jobs. In the NFL, you have to perform at an incredibly high level or you'll quickly be out of the league. Retired players also face difficult physical problems as they age as a result of their years of service.

The truth is this: Fans don't care about players. All they care about is their vicarious experience. Anything that takes enjoyment away from that is an inconvenience and not tolerated. As a fan, I'd certainly be frustrated if Davis held out. However, I'm not going to fashion a ridiculous ethical framework that condemns it- just so I can also feel morally indignant.
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Old 07-11-2005   #64
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Originally Posted by Carr Bomb
They play a game for a living, (while I'm fixing to have to go off to war) regardless if they make 500,000 dollars a year (which by the way isn't a small salary so don't cry for DD. He gets paid damn good money to do what he does) or 5 mil. a year. Teachers get paid peanuts and their professions are 100x more important in the big scheme of things than a insignificant football player.
Insignificant? Sure, but you can't compare this properly when it is so out of context. Football players are performers like singers are performers. They get paid big money from people like you and I out of our disposable income because most of them have unique talents. If you paid 50 bucks to see a concert (name your favorite group) and the band got sick you probably wouldn't want to listen to just anyone fill in. You wouldn't want to spend your $50 bucks to watch me or most teachers sing as their replacement. Unique skill factors in somewhere. Call it unfair...but it's just how it is. If you can generate the revinue, you should get your share of it as an entertainer/performer.

Frankly, I think the NFL has it right. Each year a team has to measure worth/unique talent in relation to cap hit. You get paid per your contract IF you make the team. In Sharper and Foreman's case, their salaries were not worth it in relation to their declining talents. Yes, they were under contract, but they were not good enough to make the team in relation to this juxtaposition of contract worth/team value. You negotiate your contract and will get paid IF you can make the team. Players get cut from squads from High School and in the NFL you can get cut because your cap hit is unfriendly. That is the chance you take for grasping the big bucks though.
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Old 07-11-2005   #65
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I agree with you there Vinny. This thread should be putting a LIGHT on the values of our society. We don't give homage or respect to honorable professions like military, teaching, and such b/c there is a belief that ANYONE can become a teacher or anyone can be in the military which unfortunately is not true.

You can say oh well if i go to school i can be a teacher....does that make you a good one? The fact of the matter is SPORT ARE ENTERTAINEMENT. Just like music, movies, and anything else. Jim carrey makes 25 million PER MOVIE.

Society's priorities should be examined but in the meantime if the NFL refuses to honor the contracts they sign or will come in and CUT the player's money....then I will not penalize any player who decides he needs more.
Player's like favre are the franchise and will be taken care of so for someone like him to criticize a javon walker who could wind up out of the NFL at any point (though not likely) is obsurd.
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Old 07-11-2005   #66
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Originally Posted by Vinny
Insignificant? Sure, but you can't compare this properly when it is so out of context. Football players are performers like singers are performers. They get paid big money from people like you and I out of our disposable income because most of them have unique talents. If you paid 50 bucks to see a concert (name your favorite group) and the band got sick you probably wouldn't want to listen to just anyone fill in. You wouldn't want to spend your $50 bucks to watch me or most teachers sing as their replacement. Unique skill factors in somewhere. Call it unfair...but it's just how it is. If you can generate the revinue, you should get your share of it as an entertainer/performer.

Frankly, I think the NFL has it right. Each year a team has to measure worth/unique talent in relation to cap hit. You get paid per your contract IF you make the team. In Sharper and Foreman's case, their salaries were not worth it in relation to their declining talents. Yes, they were under contract, but they were not good enough to make the team in relation to this juxtaposition of contract worth/team value. You negotiate your contract and will get paid IF you can make the team. Players get cut from squads from High School and in the NFL you can get cut because your cap hit is unfriendly. That is the chance you take for grasping the big bucks though.
Vinny I understand what your saying and also understand why football players get paid to do what they do, I don't have a problem with that at all. I do have a problem however with the players who hold out when they are under contract, thats what I was trying to say. Talking about teachers and the military, I was just trying to put things in perspective.
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Old 07-11-2005   #67
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I think we need to remind ourselves that Bob Mcnair plays a huge role in this also. I believe he only wants guys on this team with good character and so far he has done that. Should the character change, so will the player at that position. I also believe that Mcnair knows how to handle situations like this and has expressed the necessary class needed to make sure DD gives us the same shot we gave him to get a new deal done.
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Old 07-11-2005   #68
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I think that DD knows that this was a RB deep draft, and even a proven vet like Henry is not getting much love. He would be stupid to not sign on with us.
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Old 07-11-2005   #69
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They could be waiting to see what the best contract for the rookie running backs was given to set a standard in the negotiations.
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Old 07-11-2005   #70
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
First of all, when players don't perform they get cut. So, yeah, they don't get paid anymore. Sometimes, the player does perform but he still gets cut (Jamie Sharper).

Yes, $500,000 is a lot of money. However, not many teachers I know suffer injuries that prevent them from teaching for more than 3 or 4 years. The life of a running back is very short. It is likely that Davis' skills and marketability will diminish by his 5th season. Therefore, it is prudent for him to pressure the team to renegotiate. Teachers may be more important but their skills are not nearly as marketable as a professional football player. Also, teachers aren't asked to perform at a high level in order to retain their jobs. In the NFL, you have to perform at an incredibly high level or you'll quickly be out of the league. Retired players also face difficult physical problems as they age as a result of their years of service.

The truth is this: Fans don't care about players. All they care about is their vicarious experience. Anything that takes enjoyment away from that is an inconvenience and not tolerated. As a fan, I'd certainly be frustrated if Davis held out. However, I'm not going to fashion a ridiculous ethical framework that condemns it- just so I can also feel morally indignant.
Yes when players don't perform they get cut. If someone doesn't perform at a high enough standard at their job, they get fired. You say sometimes when a player does perform he still gets cut and thats true, but that happens in the real world every DAY. People go to their jobs they've been working at admirably for 15 to 20 years only to be laid off in a shrinking work force, its ugly, but is a fact of life.

You say Retired players face health issues and that is also true, but football players made the decision to play football knowing full well what risks were involved. In Houston there are thousands of people who walk into work everday at the many surrounding petroluem plants who face even worse health risks and many aren't told or know about certain exposures until years later when something pops up.

Thats the reason why I don't feel sorry for the players. Yes I know players could suffer a career ending injury, but most of them have college degrees, because of the chance of a free education they were given and can walk straight into the both are many other jobs. Most players retire in their early 30's, thats still young, most are millionaire's who can then inturn find other high paying jobs or endorsements.

Does this mean I don't care about the players....NO, (I just don't feel sorry for them). I do care about the players, thats one of the reasons I go out and watch the games. Thats one of the reasons I go out and buy their jersey's and cards and all other kinds of merchandise. I hope Davis gets whats comming to him, he deserves it, he should just do it the right way.
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Old 07-11-2005   #71
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I think Davis will. Just as we see the risk, I am sure his agent does as well.
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Old 07-11-2005   #72
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Originally Posted by Carr Bomb
I hope Davis gets whats comming to him, he deserves it, he should just do it the right way.

Yes and the right way is to use what leverage he has. If the contract is not binding for the team then it can't be binding for him either. Why is this difficult to understand? If the Texans could get away with keeping Davis 4 years at his paltry salary, they would do it. If the signing happens it will be because the Texans understand that their will be ramifications for them if they don't- either Davis will hold out or it could affect the relationship that they have with many of the players. This is Davis' career and he owes it to himself to make sure he cashes in on it.

Everyone talks about the real world. Fine. I don't know many people who pass on better jobs for more money out of some sense of honor. If so, that honor is likely misplaced.

Fans envy players and, as a result, often resent their success. Too bad those fans still throw money at the sport. If they didn't, tickets would be a lot less expensive for people like myself who truly appreciate the game and the players.
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Old 07-11-2005   #73
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Originally Posted by dalemurphy
Everyone talks about the real world. Fine. I don't know many people who pass on better jobs for more money out of some sense of honor. If so, that honor is likely misplaced.
Hi Dale, my name is Ashley Ashna. Nice to meet you. Now you can say you've met someone who passed on another job because he honored his existing contract Maybe we can have a beverage together at a future Texans game. And my honor is in the right place for me, maybe not for you.
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Old 07-12-2005   #74
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Fans envy players and, as a result, often resent their success. Too bad those fans still throw money at the sport. If they didn't, tickets would be a lot less expensive for people like myself who truly appreciate the game and the players.
WHAT....so now you have the authority to judge who is a real fan and who isn't. For the record I don't envy any football player, just dont believe they should receive special treatment. The fact is the people who post on this board is not your average fan. D. Davis will get whats his not because he backed our front office into a corner, but for the fact that he deserves it. Most players will get their day in the sun and so will DD. Maybe I just have different morals, but I was brought up to fullfill your obligations and your only as good as your word.
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Old 07-12-2005   #75
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WHAT....so now you have the authority to judge who is a real fan and who isn't. For the record I don't envy any football player, just dont believe they should receive special treatment. The fact is the people who post on this board is not your average fan. D. Davis will get whats his not because he backed our front office into a corner, but for the fact that he deserves it. Most players will get their day in the sun and so will DD. Maybe I just have different morals, but I was brought up to fullfill your obligations and your only as good as your word.

Good Grief! Why is it difficult to understand that an employee shouldn't feel more abliged to his employer than his employer his to him? Nobody is suggesting special treatment for players. I'm trying to get you to understand that they are real people facing the same issues we do. Of all the sports, football players are not overpaid premadonas who abuse the system.

The contract isn't actually a commitment is this instance. How can it be? At least one party (the team) reserves the right to end it at anytime. Besides, holding out is simply a form of considering retirement. Do you worker drones also believe it is unethical to retire before your term is up?
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Old 07-12-2005   #76
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Good Grief! Why is it difficult to understand that an employee shouldn't feel more abliged to his employer than his employer his to him? Nobody is suggesting special treatment for players. I'm trying to get you to understand that they are real people facing the same issues we do. Of all the sports, football players are not overpaid premadonas who abuse the system.

The contract isn't actually a commitment is this instance. How can it be? At least one party (the team) reserves the right to end it at anytime. Besides, holding out is simply a form of considering retirement. Do you worker drones also believe it is unethical to retire before your term is up?
Wow, just think, I only thought it was a bad time for DomDavis to holdout, not that he would be evil incarnate for holding out. Most of us don't have the power to negotiate significantly with our employers (even during the initial hiring process) and while I will judge the wisdom of some players holding out and I sure as heck don't fault them for using the power afforded to them because of thier talent.
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Old 07-12-2005   #77
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Wow, just think, I only thought it was a bad time for DomDavis to holdout, not that he would be evil incarnate for holding out. Most of us don't have the power to negotiate significantly with our employers (even during the initial hiring process) and while I will judge the wisdom of some players holding out and I sure as heck don't fault them for using the power afforded to them because of thier talent.
You would think I was writing the Communist Manifesto the way people have responded to my argument. I absolutely agree with you that a situation like Terrell Owens' is not the same as Dominick Davis'.
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Old 07-13-2005   #78
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Originally Posted by Vinny
Insignificant? Sure, but you can't compare this properly when it is so out of context. Football players are performers like singers are performers. They get paid big money from people like you and I out of our disposable income because most of them have unique talents. If you paid 50 bucks to see a concert (name your favorite group) and the band got sick you probably wouldn't want to listen to just anyone fill in. You wouldn't want to spend your $50 bucks to watch me or most teachers sing as their replacement. Unique skill factors in somewhere. Call it unfair...but it's just how it is. If you can generate the revinue, you should get your share of it as an entertainer/performer.

I know that every word of the above statement is true .... yet I can't shake the feeling that every year little by little the gap between Joe Athlete and Joe Common Man gets bigger and bigger. When I hear on the news that an athlete has broken the law and my first instinct is that they'll suffer no consequences, I'm dismayed. As the father of a 13 year old boy that would rather wear a Randy Moss jersey than an Aaron Glenn jersey, I'm dismayed. When I read that an athlete is insulted by a contract offer that pays him more money in a week than all of my children's teachers make in a year combined, I'm dismayed. When I hear that a sport is cancelled for an entire year because the owners and the players can't agree, I'm dismayed. When I see that Barry Bonds (assuming he ever gets healthly) will break Hank Aaron's record after using steriods (I spent many nights as a kid listening to Braves games on a transistor radio with ear piece), I'm dismayed .... When I think of billionaires telling taxpayers that they'd better "step up to the plate" or they'll take their team elsewhere, I'm dismayed .... When I think of my grandson growing up with sports and wondering if he'll have the opportunity to feel about sports the way I did when I was very young, I'm dismayed .... So when I read a response like Vinny's I know he's right but I'm dismayed ...
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Old 07-13-2005   #79
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Default good post but...

This isn't an athletic thing. There are lots of narrow-minded people inside and outside of sports. If you are part of any company that generates billions of dollars you will seek out your fair share of what you generate. I don't find that sad because I think they should get a huge chunk of the pie. Personally, I don't look at players as any more than being football players. They are no smarter or better than you or I. I don't look up to them as role models because they just flat out are no different than any stranger on the street.

btw, I don't know why a kid would feel closer to Glenn when he is closer to your age and at the end of his career. Moss is a special talent and he is younger. I can understand why he would rather have a Moss jersey. It's up to you to explain what he is impressed with and break down what he is representing by suporting the Moss jersey. I sure I didn't like the same players my Dad did when I was a child either. I probably really liked a few worthless punks without knowing about the Man behind the face-mask.
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Old 07-13-2005   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
This isn't an athletic thing. There are lots of narrow-minded people inside and outside of sports. If you are part of any company that generates billions of dollars you will seek out your fair share of what you generate. I don't find that sad because I think they should get a huge chunk of the pie. Personally, I don't look at players as any more than being football players. They are no smarter or better than you or I. I don't look up to them as role models because they just flat out are no different than any stranger on the street.
I agree in principle but this is a sports-related message board. At least you didn't lecture me about a "free markey economy".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny
btw, I don't know why a kid would feel closer to Glenn when he is closer to your age and at the end of his career. Moss is a special talent and he is younger. I can understand why he would rather have a Moss jersey. It's up to you to explain what he is impressed with and break down what he is representing by suporting the Moss jersey.
I'm not entering into a pissing match with you about this one. I'll continue the process of raising my children in this day and time and you'll do the same with yours ....
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