Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-10-2005   #41
disaacks3
Site Contributor
 
disaacks3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Spring, TX
Section: 116 - Row M
Age: 45
Posts: 10,616
Rep Power: 139897 disaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
With all the talk about how selfish players are, I think fans are worse. They are not only often ignorant of the game but are very disrespectful of the players. Fans often don't care about anything but their own experience- whether in the stadium or at home watching on TV. Apparently, there are a number of selfish fans who don't care about the people they root for on this message board.
Why should the 'average' fan care...any more than the team management cares about the players or the fans? Fans are paid patrons of the organization..if they receive a shoddy product, they have the right to complain.

If you get lousy service in a restaurant, you tell the Manager. You don't ask the server if there's a problem with their "home life", that's the Manager's issue...you just want YOUR order right.
disaacks3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #42
ATX
Hall of Fame
 
ATX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Austin
Age: 34
Posts: 9,563
Rep Power: 144 ATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respectedATX is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

not to mention that there are 1000 times more fans than players. makes it alot easier to scape goat the fans as bad fans. and fans are paying patrons, not paid patrons, unless i'm missing out on something.
ATX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #43
rittenhouserobz
Hall of Fame
 
rittenhouserobz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,100
Rep Power: 12 rittenhouserobz is ridin' the pine
Send a message via Yahoo to rittenhouserobz
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas_Thrill
As far as DD holding out. I just wouldn't do it if I was him from the standpoint we do have Morency and you dont want to sacrifice playing time ....the same time that would equal a big check when you become a free agent just to get some money now. He's kinda b/w a rock and hard place.

On one hand he can play out his current contract possibly get hurt not get a thing or not get hurt and get a BIGGGG payday.

OR he could hold out now get some definite money but not make as much b/c he wont have as many consistent seasons and possibly even lose his starting job.
Don't forget this option. He signs a medocre deal for insurance this year. Then he makes the pro-bowl and hires Drew Rosenhaus and wants a larger signing bous with double the salary. scary thought huh?
__________________
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. Ben Franklin
rittenhouserobz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #44
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
 
dalemurphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Austin
Section: Bullpen/ 636
Age: 41
Posts: 5,777
Rep Power: 63855 dalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by disaacks3
Why should the 'average' fan care...any more than the team management cares about the players or the fans? Fans are paid patrons of the organization..if they receive a shoddy product, they have the right to complain.

If you get lousy service in a restaurant, you tell the Manager. You don't ask the server if there's a problem with their "home life", that's the Manager's issue...you just want YOUR order right.

What does this have to do with Dominick Davis? I would agree that if the Texans don't sign him to a reasonable extension and he sits out then you could be upset with the organization if the running game suffers as a result.
dalemurphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #45
Texans Pride
Hall of Fame
 
Texans Pride's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: www.realsteeltailgaters.com
Section: 111, Row Q
Age: 37
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 347 Texans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Whatever happened to honoring the contract you signed?

I agree DD has done an excellent job for us, showing high character off the field, and a strong work ethic on the field. However, I donít think that gives him or any other player the right to hold out to get more money. There is such a thing as honor and living up to your commitments. If you sign a contract committing to play for a certain amount of money and time period, then you should play out your existing contract. I have heard many players say it (Farve), and I happen to agree, if you work hard, and produce, you will be rewarded by your organization.
__________________
Stop Working And Tailgate
www.facebook.com/realsteeltailgaters
www.realsteeltailgaters.com
Texans Pride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #46
keyfro
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Age: 31
Posts: 1,859
Rep Power: 14 keyfro was voted MVPkeyfro was voted MVPkeyfro was voted MVP
Send a message via AIM to keyfro
Default

exactly...Texans Pride has hit the "nail" straight on the head...i know every player will come back and talk about how the gm's don't honor their contracts as well...and i agree...it all needs to stop...this game needs to be more about the game than a business IMO...personally i'd like to see it get back to the way it was in the 50's and 60's..(yes i know i wasn't around back then but we all know how it was)...players playing for average pay...and being the average guy...not these overpaid millionaires...might just make it more fan friendly then...and yes i know i'm dreaming because that will never happen

as for DD...i heard that after the texans sign their draft picks they'll go back and talk to a few players about extentions...DD being the main one but probably PB as well...so let's not go nuts just yet...i think DD is man enough to wait til after training camp to get his contract extended
__________________
With the 10th overall pick in the 2007 NFL draft the Houston Texans select...?????
keyfro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #47
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
 
dalemurphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Austin
Section: Bullpen/ 636
Age: 41
Posts: 5,777
Rep Power: 63855 dalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans Pride
Whatever happened to honoring the contract you signed?

I agree DD has done an excellent job for us, showing high character off the field, and a strong work ethic on the field. However, I donít think that gives him or any other player the right to hold out to get more money. There is such a thing as honor and living up to your commitments. If you sign a contract committing to play for a certain amount of money and time period, then you should play out your existing contract. I have heard many players say it (Farve), and I happen to agree, if you work hard, and produce, you will be rewarded by your organization.
Really, so if Davis blows out his knee this season, Davis will still be rewarded with a new contract?

NFL contracts are not binding. NFL clubs regularly release players early into contracts without compensation for the player. If Davis doesn't receive an extension with a good bonus then he could get injured an never cash in on his years of service and his talent.
dalemurphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored links
Old 07-10-2005   #48
disaacks3
Site Contributor
 
disaacks3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Spring, TX
Section: 116 - Row M
Age: 45
Posts: 10,616
Rep Power: 139897 disaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
What does this have to do with Dominick Davis? I would agree that if the Texans don't sign him to a reasonable extension and he sits out then you could be upset with the organization if the running game suffers as a result.
Absolutely nothing...which was the point I was making. Blaming fans for Team / player relations is off-target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
Really, so if Davis blows out his knee this season, Davis will still be rewarded with a new contract?

NFL contracts are not binding. NFL clubs regularly release players early into contracts without compensation for the player. If Davis doesn't receive an extension with a good bonus then he could get injured an never cash in on his years of service and his talent.
That makes him different than any other "working stiff" how? If I suffer an injury (even on the job) that makes me incapable of fulfilling the requirements of my job, they let me go and get someone who can. Why do you think that athletes take out large insurance policies with LLoyds?
disaacks3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #49
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
 
dalemurphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Austin
Section: Bullpen/ 636
Age: 41
Posts: 5,777
Rep Power: 63855 dalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by disaacks3
Absolutely nothing...which was the point I was making. Blaming fans for Team / player relations is off-target.

That makes him different than any other "working stiff" how? If I suffer an injury (even on the job) that makes me incapable of fulfilling the requirements of my job, they let me go and get someone who can. Why do you think that athletes take out large insurance policies with LLoyds?
In your scenario, I guess it would be ethically long to threaten to go work somewhere else for more money or just stay home and do something else. Is that what you are saying? Furthermore, would Dominick Davis begrudge you the right to leave your job or ask for more money using what leverage you have?
dalemurphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #50
disaacks3
Site Contributor
 
disaacks3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Spring, TX
Section: 116 - Row M
Age: 45
Posts: 10,616
Rep Power: 139897 disaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respecteddisaacks3 is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
In your scenario, I guess it would be ethically long to threaten to go work somewhere else for more money or just stay home and do something else. Is that what you are saying? Furthermore, would Dominick Davis begrudge you the right to leave your job or ask for more money using what leverage you have?
Actually, in my scenario (let's call this the "real world" scenario) I am contractually obligated to perform MY duties for only MY employer and am subject to civil penalties and lawsuit if I break those obligations.

Are you finished with the pointless (and silly) comparisons of the "real world" to that of prefessional athletes? If it's your position that we fans are wrong to expect an athlete to live up to his contractual obligations, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

As an aside, have you seen the OTHER THREAD on just this very subject?
disaacks3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #51
TexansTrueFan
Hall of Fame
 
TexansTrueFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Huntsville Tx
Age: 29
Posts: 2,600
Rep Power: 13 TexansTrueFan is a team player
Send a message via Yahoo to TexansTrueFan
Default

this is just something to get us by for another month before pre-season starts. We need something to talk about.
TexansTrueFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #52
Wolf
100% Texan
 
Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kerrville
Age: 44
Posts: 37,341
Rep Power: 109602 Wolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

if Davis gets injured.. that is a risk he takes... yes contracts aren't guaranteed but I image that is why some players push the ole signing bonus thing. .. I also wonder how much of a players salary goes to insurance in case this happens(injury) like what happened to Willie Magahee .

anyway.. Davis is solid and not spectacular. to me he'd be a fool to hold out..
Wolf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #53
TexansTrueFan
Hall of Fame
 
TexansTrueFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Huntsville Tx
Age: 29
Posts: 2,600
Rep Power: 13 TexansTrueFan is a team player
Send a message via Yahoo to TexansTrueFan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
if Davis gets injured.. that is a risk he takes... yes contracts aren't guaranteed but I image that is why some players push the ole signing bonus thing. .. I also wonder how much of a players salary goes to insurance in case this happens(injury) like what happened to Willie Magahee .

anyway.. Davis is solid and not spectacular. to me he'd be a fool to hold out..

i agree with you, but i feel Davis clicks well with this offense and i think we have a better chance of competing if we wanna win.
TexansTrueFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #54
Wolf
100% Texan
 
Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kerrville
Age: 44
Posts: 37,341
Rep Power: 109602 Wolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respectedWolf is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexansTrueFan
i agree with you, but i feel Davis clicks well with this offense and i think we have a better chance of competing if we wanna win.
agreed.. he fits this system..

reason I say Davis is solid is when Wells got to play last year with the same offensive line that DD is playing.. if memory serves me right.. stats were about equal.. now if Wells with his body size would run as hard as DD we might have a position battle going on , but right now.. DD is the best we have seen in a houston uniform
Wolf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #55
TexansTrueFan
Hall of Fame
 
TexansTrueFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Huntsville Tx
Age: 29
Posts: 2,600
Rep Power: 13 TexansTrueFan is a team player
Send a message via Yahoo to TexansTrueFan
Default

yeah wells did pretty good when he was in. Not near as versitile in the passing game as D.D and not near as shifty either. If Davis can have the same consitency in the 1st of the season as he seems to have in the 2nd we should compete for a play off spot. And if our Oline isnt to good this year Davis is always there to keep him out of trouble which is good for carrs health.
TexansTrueFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #56
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
 
dalemurphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Austin
Section: Bullpen/ 636
Age: 41
Posts: 5,777
Rep Power: 63855 dalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by disaacks3
Actually, in my scenario (let's call this the "real world" scenario) I am contractually obligated to perform MY duties for only MY employer and am subject to civil penalties and lawsuit if I break those obligations.

Are you finished with the pointless (and silly) comparisons of the "real world" to that of prefessional athletes? If it's your position that we fans are wrong to expect an athlete to live up to his contractual obligations, then we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject.

As an aside, have you seen the OTHER THREAD on just this very subject?
Well, in Texas, neither party is bound by a contract. Your employer can fire you without cause and you can seek employment without fear of reprisal. It's quite simple. The NFL doesn't honor its contracts with players so players shouldn't be expected to honor the contracts either. I'm sorry if that's inconvenient for fans but that is the environment the owners created through collective bargaining.
dalemurphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #57
Texans Pride
Hall of Fame
 
Texans Pride's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: www.realsteeltailgaters.com
Section: 111, Row Q
Age: 37
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 347 Texans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
In your scenario, I guess it would be ethically wrong to threaten to go work somewhere else for more money or just stay home and do something else. Is that what you are saying? Furthermore, would Dominick Davis begrudge you the right to leave your job or ask for more money using what leverage you have?

I am teacher, at the beginning of each year, I sign a contract with my school district stating that I will remain with my school for the entire year. If I do not stay I am subject to penalty.

Just this year I was offered a new job with more money, more days off, and much better benefits. I did not take the job because I HONORED THE CONTRACT THAT I HAD ALREADY SIGNED.

I know it's a novel concept in this day and age, but I still believe in honor and integrity.
__________________
Stop Working And Tailgate
www.facebook.com/realsteeltailgaters
www.realsteeltailgaters.com
Texans Pride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #58
Texans Pride
Hall of Fame
 
Texans Pride's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: www.realsteeltailgaters.com
Section: 111, Row Q
Age: 37
Posts: 1,315
Rep Power: 347 Texans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respectedTexans Pride is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy
The NFL doesn't honor its contracts with players so players shouldn't be expected to honor the contracts either.

I agree with your point here
__________________
Stop Working And Tailgate
www.facebook.com/realsteeltailgaters
www.realsteeltailgaters.com
Texans Pride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #59
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
 
dalemurphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Austin
Section: Bullpen/ 636
Age: 41
Posts: 5,777
Rep Power: 63855 dalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf
if Davis gets injured.. that is a risk he takes... yes contracts aren't guaranteed but I image that is why some players push the ole signing bonus thing. ..
But, as a 4th round pick, he had no ability to demand a signing bonus. Instead, he was simply slotted into position. He had no say in who he would play for nor did he have power to negotiate his deal.

Yet, 2 years later, after he's proven himself to be much more valuable than what he's been paid, you would say that it's wrong for him to use the only leverage he has in order to get a signing bonus that gives him security before he goes out and risks his health for the team again this year?
dalemurphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005   #60
dalemurphy
Hall of Fame
 
dalemurphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Austin
Section: Bullpen/ 636
Age: 41
Posts: 5,777
Rep Power: 63855 dalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respecteddalemurphy is a quality contributor and well respected
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans Pride
I am teacher, at the beginning of each year, I sign a contract with my school district stating that I will remain with my school for the entire year. If I do not stay I am subject to penalty.

Just this year I was offered a new job with more money, more days off, and much better benefits. I did not take the job because I HONORED THE CONTRACT THAT I HAD ALREADY SIGNED.

I know it's a novel concept in this day and age, but I still believe in honor and integrity.

Honor and integrity can't be divorced from context. For instance, if you're playing certain strategic games, deceit may be part of the game. In those cases, you are not more or less honorable if you practice deceit.

Similarly, in collective bargaining agreement and the position Davis finds himself in, holding out in the middle of a non-binding rookie contract has nothing to do with honor or integrity. Otherwise, without exception and including the Texans, every NFL organization lacks honor and integrity. By the way, if that's the case, why would you root for such an organization if such things are so important to you?
dalemurphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger