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Old 11-20-2013   #421
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

Back to School: How Mike Shanahan Is Using RG3's College Offense With the Redskins

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...h-the-redskins
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Old 11-20-2013   #422
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

Manziel Offense = rushing attempts 533; Passing attempts 492

Vick Offense = rushing attempts 570; Passing Attempts 226

Harrell Offense = Rushing Attempts 303; Passing Attempts 604

Vick and Manziel ran a more balanced O and compare more favorably to each other than they do to Harrell. The biggest difference between Manziel's and Vick's style is Manziel runs a hurry up no huddle O and Vick did not. The primary difference in number of snap count. The primary difference in the number of passing attempts between Vick and Manziel is because of almost a 20% difference in completion percentage. Vick = 56% Manziel 73%. If you're completing more than 70% of your passes you're going to throw more.
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Old 11-20-2013   #423
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

72% rushing is not a balanced offense and 66% passing is closer to balanced but also lopsided.
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Old 11-20-2013   #424
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Manziel Offense = rushing attempts 533; Passing attempts 492

Vick Offense = rushing attempts 570; Passing Attempts 226

Harrell Offense = Rushing Attempts 303; Passing Attempts 604

Vick and Manziel ran a more balanced O and compare more favorably to each other than they do to Harrell. The biggest difference between Manziel's and Vick's style is Manziel runs a hurry up no huddle O and Vick did not. The primary difference in number of snap count. The primary difference in the number of passing attempts between Vick and Manziel is because of almost a 20% difference in completion percentage. Vick = 56% Manziel 73%. If you're completing more than 70% of your passes you're going to throw more.
Honest question: how many rushing attempts were from the QB? If the QB makes a huge chunk of the rushing attempts then that shifts the balance some for me.
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Old 11-20-2013   #425
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Manziel Offense = rushing attempts 533; Passing attempts 492

Vick Offense = rushing attempts 570; Passing Attempts 226

Harrell Offense = Rushing Attempts 303; Passing Attempts 604

Vick and Manziel ran a more balanced O and compare more favorably to each other than they do to Harrell. The biggest difference between Manziel's and Vick's style is Manziel runs a hurry up no huddle O and Vick did not. The primary difference in number of snap count. The primary difference in the number of passing attempts between Vick and Manziel is because of almost a 20% difference in completion percentage. Vick = 56% Manziel 73%. If you're completing more than 70% of your passes you're going to throw more.
You still haven't understood the analogy I was creating.

Harrell and Manziel played in the same style of offense. One is pass heavy and one is more balanced. But it's still the same structure of offense. It's a spread offense.

Vick played in a run heavy offense that was not structured at all like a spread. It was a lot like the Alabama offense of recent years. It's a pro style offense.

You're trying to compare the Oregon and Stanford offenses and say they're similar because they both run a lot. Simply not accurate.
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Old 11-20-2013   #426
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Honest question: how many rushing attempts were from the QB? If the QB makes a huge chunk of the rushing attempts then that shifts the balance some for me.
First year as a starter with QB runs subtracted...

2012 Manziel = 332 rush, 492 pass = 60% pass

2006 Harrell = 220 rush, 655 pass = 74% pass

1999 Vick = 474 rush, 227 pass = 32% pass
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Old 11-20-2013   #427
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Honest question: how many rushing attempts were from the QB? If the QB makes a huge chunk of the rushing attempts then that shifts the balance some for me.
Vick Rushing Attempts = 113

Harrell Rushing Attempts = 35

Manziel Rushing Attempts = 201
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Old 11-20-2013   #428
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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You still haven't understood the analogy I was creating.
The reason your analogy is not making any sense is because the original comment that Manziel as a Freshman had more production than Mike Vick had as a Freshman and sophomore combined and Mick Vick was a number 1 draft pick. As much as you dissect and find excuses to discredit Manziel's production over Vick it doesn't change the fact that in 1 year Manziel put up twice the numbers Mike Vick did in two years. It's still pretty amazing.
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Old 11-20-2013   #429
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

What kind of defenses did Vick face that year? Manziel at a minimum faced Florida and LSU at home and @Alabama.
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Old 11-20-2013   #430
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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The reason your analogy is not making any sense is because the original comment that Manziel as a Freshman had more production than Mike Vick had as a Freshman and sophomore combined and Mick Vick was a number 1 draft pick. As much as you dissect and find excuses to discredit Manziel's production over Vick it doesn't change the fact that in 1 year Manziel put up twice the numbers Mike Vick did in two years. It's still pretty amazing.
I'm not discrediting Manziel's production in regards to college football. It is amazing. Don't take my argument that way because his production has been incredible.

It doesn't make him a superior NFL prospect though. That's my only point. The offense he plays in negates all that. If Michael Vick was a redshirt freshman in 2012 instead of 1999 he would have put up much better numbers. That's just the way offense has evolved.
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Old 11-20-2013   #431
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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What kind of defenses did Vick face that year? Manziel at a minimum faced Florida and LSU at home and @Alabama.
These are the ranked teams that VT faced that year. Not sure what the defenses were ranked. I do remember Miami and FSU both had awesome defenses around that time though.

@ #24 Virginia - W
#16 Syracuse - W
#19 Miami (FL.) - W
#22 Boston College - W
vs. #1 Florida State (National Title Game) - L
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Old 11-20-2013   #432
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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These are the ranked teams that VT faced that year. Not sure what the defenses were ranked. I do remember Miami and FSU both had awesome defenses around that time though.

@ #24 Virginia - W
#16 Syracuse - W
#19 Miami (FL.) - W
#22 Boston College - W
vs. #1 Florida State (National Title Game) - L
Interesting. Was mostly asking w/r/t the completion rate difference between Manziel and Vick.
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Old 11-20-2013   #433
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I'm not discrediting Manziel's production in regards to college football. It is amazing. Don't take my argument that way because his production has been incredible.

It doesn't make him a superior NFL prospect though. That's my only point. The offense he plays in negates all that. If Michael Vick was a redshirt freshman in 2012 instead of 1999 he would have put up much better numbers. That's just the way offense has evolved.
Actually when you consider the competition it does.
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Old 11-20-2013   #434
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Actually when you consider the competition it does.
I'm so tired of the competition debate. The SEC is overrated as a defensive league. Those days are long over. The offenses have caught up and you only have a handful of good defenses now. I realize the significance of the game against Alabama, but portraying that the other 7 conference games are even close to that level is a crock of ****. The ACC, Big Ten, and Pac-12 all have more defenses in the top 15 than the SEC.


Manziel played 3 competent defenses last year (Florida, LSU, and Alabama).

He went 76/117 (65%) for 702 yards with 2 TD's and 3 INT's. He added 179 yards rushing on 52 carries (3.4 ypc) and 1 TD.


This year he has played 2 competent defenses so far (Alabama and Mississippi State)

He has gone 58/78 (74%) for 910 yards with 10 TD's and 5 INT's. He added 145 yards rushing on 28 carries (5.2 ypc).
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Old 11-20-2013   #435
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I'm not discrediting Manziel's production in regards to college football. It is amazing. Don't take my argument that way because his production has been incredible.

It doesn't make him a superior NFL prospect though. That's my only point. The offense he plays in negates all that. If Michael Vick was a redshirt freshman in 2012 instead of 1999 he would have put up much better numbers. That's just the way offense has evolved.
I guess this where we have a fundalmental disagreement. I see where NFL coaches are incorporating this in to their offenses. I mentioned Washington incorporating some of Baylor's offense for RGIII and y'all mocked but it's the truth Shanahan did just that. Several NFL coaches flocked to Nevada to be tutored by Kaepernick's head coach.

We also see a difference in Leach vs Briles and Sumlin. Leach is much more pass oriented, yet Briles and Sumlin passing game are much more downfield oriented. A big majority of Leach's offense were mostly no read quick snap passes of < 5 yds. That is not the Briles & Sumlin offense or passing game. And I agree what Leach does that doesn't translate to the NFL.

Vick in college today, a hypothetical but I'll indulge in this game one time. Let's assume Vick is not at Tech but at Texas A&M today and the question is would he put numbers that equal or exceed Manziel. Passing no way, to suggest 54% completions would out perform 73% completions on 500 attempts is a futile argument not worth having and a waste of time. I suggest that Texas A&M would have lost considerably more games with a QB who only completed 54% of his passes. Rushing, IMHO doubtful Vick would be Manziel's equal. Manziel is a smarter football player than Mike Vick, sees the field better than Vick and because of that I don't think Vick's 5.9 YPC and 8 TDs at VT would translate in to Manziels 7.0 YPC and 21 TDs at Texas A&M. I am sure many will want to argue this differently.

I think Mike Vick is an amazing amazing athlete, his athleticism after all is what made him the #1 draft pick. Like Manziel, I have seen Mike Vick doing some amazing things on a football field. FYI - I have been a Falcons season ticket holder since 1987 and my house was 7 miles from Falcons HQ. I was on the front row at Falcons HQ the day Dan Reeves announced Vick as the #1 pick. Picture was in the AJC.

As for the defenses played, Manziel has played against some SEC defenses that are every bit as tough, if not tougher than defenses Mick Vick played while at VT.
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Old 11-20-2013   #436
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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I'm so tired of the competition debate. The SEC is overrated as a defensive league. Those days are long over. The offenses have caught up and you only have a handful of good defenses now. I realize the significance of the game against Alabama, but portraying that the other 7 conference games are even close to that level is a crock of ****. The ACC, Big Ten, and Pac-12 all have more defenses in the top 15 than the SEC.


Manziel played 3 competent defenses last year (Florida, LSU, and Alabama).

He went 76/117 (65%) for 702 yards with 2 TD's and 3 INT's. He added 179 yards rushing on 52 carries (3.4 ypc) and 1 TD.


This year he has played 2 competent defenses so far (Alabama and Mississippi State)

He has gone 58/78 (74%) for 910 yards with 10 TD's and 5 INT's. He added 145 yards rushing on 28 carries (5.2 ypc).
IMHO I would suggest that you could add Oklahoma to the 2012 list of competent defenses and Ole Miss and Auburn to the 2013 list of competent defenses played with competent defenses of Mizzou and LSU still to be played in 2013....in what many consider the best defense in college football the last 2 years, Alabama, he has hung 78 on them.
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Old 11-20-2013   #437
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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.

IMHO I would suggest that you could add Oklahoma to the 2012 list of competent defenses and Ole Miss and Auburn to the 2013 list of competent defenses played with competent defenses of Mizzou and LSU still to be played in 2013....in what many consider the best defense in college football the last 2 years, Alabama, he has hung 78 on them.
Oklahoma had the 64th ranked defense in the country last year and they had a couple of horrific games last year outside of the A&M game.

Ole Miss (#43) and Missouri (#52) both hang around #50 so I might give you those, but Auburn is #72. LSU is #24 FWIW.

The point I'm making is the strength of defense he faces is not really any different than Winston, Mariotta, Hundley, etc. The only outlier is Alabama, who Manziel played good against last year and dominated this year.
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Old 11-21-2013   #438
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

I think the point is that, aside from fumbles (1 for Manziel to 0 for AJ) and Interceptions (11 on the year compared to 0!!! for Mariota), Manziel is playing exceptionally against those defenses, in addition to his game against Alabama.
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Old 11-22-2013   #439
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

Finally joined the Manziel hype train. Would not be mad at that pick.
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Old 11-22-2013   #440
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

I've watched manziel play one good team this year and that was auburn. I can't say I was impressed.

He didn't do the things that I'd want to see out if a franchise qb. Tbh he looks like keenum a little bit.

I have not watched any of the other top prospects except bridgewater for a little while, and he does what I would like to see from a franchise guy.

I would like to see manziel stay in school another year and really work on his passing. I don't like.

I'd rather a qb make plays from the pocket than to be running around all the time. I don't like that about keenum and I don't like it from manziel. You're going to often be inconsistent when you play like that in the nfl.

Contrast that with a guy like jaimes Winston or bridgewater or in the nfl Big Ben...guys that are mobile, but they aren't out there running all over the place and bailing all the time.

I'd prefer a guy like keenum or manziel to a guy like Matt, but if I'm taking a guy in the top of the first round, I guy who will carve you from the pocket primarily.
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