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Old 11-20-2013   #401
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

It's been reported that Nick Saban is leaving Alabama for the University of Texas. Those in the know say it is a done deal. Saban's wife Terry has been spotted in Austin with a real estate agent. When Saban was reached for comment and asked why he was leaving Alabama, he responded, Manziel, I have to go somewhere I never have to worry about playing Johnny Manziel ever again. Every time I play him he takes 10 years off my life'
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Old 11-20-2013   #402
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Manziel has more passing attempts because he is a better passer, though? He's more proficient at it than Vick was, so he passed more often. He's probably the best passer in the class after Bridgewater, looking at stats and competition. His talent for running is key, but I don't think he's quite the same as Vick's 'Check read and run' style, or at least has improved upon this from his freshman year.

It's not a zero-sum player where a proficiency for passing or rushing means deficiency in the other; Manziel is just adept at both.

FWIW I'm an LSU fan so I'm the LAST person who wants to see Manziel do well right now. Surprise, surprise, it IS possible to like Manziel without being an Aggie.
Manziel is undoubtedly a better passer than Vick was coming out of college. So is every single one of these prospects we are talking about. That wasn't my point, my point was to add context to a post that had none. He didn't run even close to the same offense and it was a different era. It was 15 years ago. His two year passing attempts total is less than what these guys do in 1 year. The game has changed in 15 years. Nearly all prospects are more advanced in passing concepts now than they were 15 years ago.

Michael Vick was a developmental passing prospect. He wasn't asked to pass a lot in college because they had a nice running game in their scheme and it won them games, got them to a championship. He was efficient enough for coaches to believe that they could develop him. He was drafted where he was drafted because he was a 6'1" 210 pound quarterback that ran a 4.33 and posted a 38" vertical at his combine. He was extremely explosive in a time where quarterbacks like him were rare. He also didn't have red flags.

My whole point was to show that making choice statistical comparison is a weak way to make an argument. Had Texian been fair about the way he argued his point, I would have taken a different approach to my response. But if we are just going to see poor comparisons, I'll come right behind and add context to them when needed to make for better comparison.
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Old 11-20-2013   #403
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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While Michael Vick a redshirt Soph declaring for the draft compares to what Manziel will likely do. Michael Vick wasn't even close to accomplishing what Manziel has done on the football field so far.

As a Freshman Vick threw for 1840 yds, completed 58% of his passes, rushed for 580 yards, 12 Passing TDs, 5 INTs and 8 Rushing TDs.

Freshman Manziel threw for 3706 yds, completed 68% of his passes, rushed for 1410 yards, 26 Passing TDs, 9 INTs, 21 Rushing TDs.

Manziel threw for more yards as a Freshman than Vick threw for as a Freshman and Sophomore combined 3706 vs 3279; Rushing yards 1410 vs 1216; Passing TDs 26 vs 21; Rushing TDs 21 vs 17. From a production standpoint, Manziel is twice as good as Michael Vick, if not more.
Completely different styles of offense on those teams. I hate when people compare numbers in a vacuum. Offense is completely different nowadays and comparing stats to 15 years ago is absurd.

Graham Harrell in his first year as a starter (RS So.) accounted for 4500 yards and 40 TD's.

Manziel in his first year as a starter (RS Fr.) accounted for 5100 yards and 47 TD's.


Advantage Manziel, but not a huge difference.

Graham Harrell in his second year accounted for 5600 yards and 52 TD's.

Manziel in his 2nd year thus far has accounted for 3900 yards and 39 TD's.

Advantage neither. Manziel will probably get close to those numbers with 3 games left.

The point is Graham Harrell didn't do a thing in the NFL and wasn't half the NFL QB that Vick has been. So comparing their college numbers is ridiculous. These wide open spread offenses put up huge numbers, but using those numbers to project NFL success is absurd.
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Old 11-20-2013   #404
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

I can't help but feel that you are reaching a bit on that analogy.

EDIT: Manziel compared favorably to Wilson here

Last edited by bhsman; 11-20-2013 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 11-20-2013   #405
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Completely different styles of offense on those teams. I hate when people compare numbers in a vacuum. Offense is completely different nowadays and comparing stats to 15 years ago is absurd.

Graham Harrell in his first year as a starter (RS So.) accounted for 4500 yards and 40 TD's.

Manziel in his first year as a starter (RS Fr.) accounted for 5100 yards and 47 TD's.


Advantage Manziel, but not a huge difference.

Graham Harrell in his second year accounted for 5600 yards and 52 TD's.

Manziel in his 2nd year thus far has accounted for 3900 yards and 39 TD's.

Advantage neither. Manziel will probably get close to those numbers with 3 games left.

The point is Graham Harrell didn't do a thing in the NFL and wasn't half the NFL QB that Vick has been. So comparing their college numbers is ridiculous. These wide open spread offenses put up huge numbers, but using those numbers to project NFL success is absurd.
I could go on about why we differ but I will try to be succinct.

One, there is not that much difference in the game of 15 years ago. I understand if you were 10 yrs old 15 years ago why you would think so.

To put things in perspective Graham played for Mike Leach. Anyone familiar with a Mike Leach offense knows if they ran the ball 10 times that was a lot. For those not familiar the offense was known as the dink and dunk, the gun and shoot, the Air Raid Offense.

Manziel plays in a Art Briles offense, the same offense that RGIII played in, the same offense the Washington Redskins adopted after drafting RGIII. So if you hate people who compare numbers in a vacuum, don't look in the mirror.
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Old 11-20-2013   #406
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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One, there is not that much difference in the game of 15 years ago. I understand if you were 10 yrs old 15 years ago why you would think so
Lol, what an oblivious and complete *******.

Ever heard of research? People use that to discuss the past. Familiarize yourself with it.

And lol @ the Redskins adopting Art Briles offense. What in the world are you talking about?
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Old 11-20-2013   #407
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

Mike Leach and his offense got to Texas Tech around 2000. Mike Vick left college in 2001. Comparing Vicks numbers of that time period is absurd but comparing Harrell stats from the same offense of that time period is not?

If you have an understanding of the offenses then a comparison is not ridiculous. To those who don't understand say a Leach offense then yes it could appear ridiculous to compare them. Like I said, NFL teams didn't shy away from RGIII and Art Briles offense, on the other hand NFL teams didn't want much to do with any QB in a Leach offense. Manziel is an offense that is far more comparable to an Art Briles offense and far removed from a Mike Leach offense. In fact the offense Vick ran is far more similar to the Offense Manziel runs and nothing similar to Mike Leach and Graham Harrell's offense run at Texas Tech.
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Old 11-20-2013   #408
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Lol, what an oblivious and complete *******.

Ever heard of research? People use that to discuss the past. Familiarize yourself with it.

And lol @ the Redskins adopting Art Briles offense. What in the world are you talking about?
You were 10 years old, what would you know? I know you think you know it all but you don't....and please stop trolling.
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Old 11-20-2013   #409
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Lol, what an oblivious and complete *******.

Ever heard of research? People use that to discuss the past. Familiarize yourself with it.

And lol @ the Redskins adopting Art Briles offense. What in the world are you talking about?
LOL no doubt.

The Redskins run the Shanahan offense with daddy at HC and Kyle at OC. The only thing they've adopted from Briles is some pistol stuff that a lot of teams in the league are doing now (including Kubiak).
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Old 11-20-2013   #410
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Like I said, NFL teams didn't shy away from RGIII and Art Briles offense, on the other hand NFL teams didn't want much to do with any QB in a Leach offense. Manziel is an offense that is far more comparable to an Art Briles offense and far removed from a Mike Leach offense. In fact the offense Vick ran is far more similar to the Offense Manziel runs and nothing similar to Mike Leach and Graham Harrell's offense run at Texas Tech.
What? Do you know who Leach's co-offensive coordinator was at Oklahoma? That's right...Kevin Sumlin. Sumlin learned that offense under Leach and took it to UH when he replaced Briles. The only reason you seem to think they are different is because Leach loves to throw the ball while Briles and Sumlin are more balanced. Those are different tendencies, not offensive styles.

Have you watched Virginia Tech play offense in the last 10 years? Because their offense hasn't changed much. Vick lined up in shotgun maybe 20% of the time when he played there. That's nothing similar to modern day spread.
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Old 11-20-2013   #411
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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You were 10 years old, what would you know? I know you think you know it all but you don't....and please stop trolling.
Art Briles came from Tech and Sumlin from OU before they got to UH . They were never there together so it's each of their version of the spread . Who started the spread offense ?
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Old 11-20-2013   #412
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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So if you hate people who compare numbers in a vacuum, don't look in the mirror.
Also, you completely missed my point on the Harrell/Manziel/Vick comparison.

My point was that comparing Manziel's stats to Vick's don't make him a better player. Harrell had much better stats than Vick and was nowhere near as good. Stats are meaningless when projecting these modern day spread QB's.
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Old 11-20-2013   #413
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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LOL no doubt.

The Redskins run the Shanahan offense with daddy at HC and Kyle at OC. The only thing they've adopted is some pistol stuff that a lot of teams in the league are doing now (including Kubiak).
Cam ran a sprint draw play the other night . Teams are now ok with putting different looks in the playbook to keep DCs on their toes .
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Old 11-20-2013   #414
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Also, you completely missed my point on the Harrell/Manziel/Vick comparison.

My point was that comparing Manziel's stats to Vick's don't make him a better player. Harrell had much better stats than Vick and was nowhere near as good. Stats are meaningless when projecting these modern day spread QB's.
Yep ... you can have all the talent and numbers but you never know how they'll react when hit in the mouth in the NFL . That's where I think JF has an advantage because he is one fiery dude . I think Murray also because they've had to be tough .
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Old 11-20-2013   #415
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Cam ran a sprint draw play the other night . Teams are now ok with putting different looks in the playbook to keep DCs on their toes .
Haha not what I meant. I should have clarified.

Texian is saying that Shanahan drafted RGIII and then started running Briles offense from Baylor. That's simply not true. He runs the same offense he's always run, but like many coaches, he has copied a lot of spread concepts and incorporated them into his playbook in some ways.

Washington isn't running the "Briles" offense. Far from it.
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Old 11-20-2013   #416
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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Haha not what I meant. I should have clarified.

Texian is saying that Shanahan drafted RGIII and then started running Briles offense from Baylor. That's simply not true. He runs the same offense he's always run, but like many coaches, he has copied a lot of spread concepts and incorporated them into his playbook in some ways.

Washington isn't the "Briles" offense. Far from it.
I knew what you meant , I was thinking of the stale bread offense of the Texans and Skins and how it would kill Gary to incorperate something like a spread .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_offense
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Old 11-20-2013   #417
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

The one thing people need to get out of their minds is that Manzel is just another take off and run guy. Sure he runs some on designed plays and occasionally takes off when things break down. But he doesn't just tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. That's not who he is. His eyes are always down field.

I'm not worried about him getting hurt either. He doesn't have much history of it and he's pretty good at not taking big hits.
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Old 11-20-2013   #418
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The one thing people need to get out of their minds is that Manzel is just another take off and run guy. Sure he runs some on designed plays and occasionally takes off when things break down. But he doesn't just tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. That's not who he is. His eyes are always down field.

I'm not worried about him getting hurt either. He doesn't have much history of it and he's pretty good at not taking big hits.
My concern with him is the times (seems to happen 1-2 a game) he chucks the ball like it's a Hail Mary to Evans into triple coverage. If we draft Manziel we need to draft a 6ft 10in tight end to go with him for his "oh crap" plays.
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Old 11-20-2013   #419
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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My concern with him is the times (seems to happen 1-2 a game) he chucks the ball like it's a Hail Mary to Evans into triple coverage. If we draft Manziel we need to draft a 6ft 10in tight end to go with him for his "oh crap" plays.
Yeh that's the one thing that worries me the most about him. You can't make those throws in the NFL. Hopefully that can be coached out of him.
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Old 11-20-2013   #420
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Default Re: Where to spend the 2014 1st round pick?

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The one thing people need to get out of their minds is that Manzel is just another take off and run guy. Sure he runs some on designed plays and occasionally takes off when things break down. But he doesn't just tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. That's not who he is. His eyes are always down field.

I'm not worried about him getting hurt either. He doesn't have much history of it and he's pretty good at not taking big hits.
My thing with Manziel is the same thing I had with Griffin. The offense sets everything up for you. The system is designed to create mismatches that most teams are not equipped to handle. You usually know which mismatch that is before the play and do very little reading of defenses. The coach and the system do everything for you (hence the looking to the sideline before every snap).

You may not worry about him getting hurt, but if he keeps up that style of play he will eventually. His best play is outside of the pocket and teams will see that and try to take it away. Teams have kept Griffin in the pocket this year and he's nowhere near as effective.
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