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Old 09-19-2013   #41
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Hey, I was just answering the question that CT posed to Doc, which had nothing to do with experience, skill level, or the price of rice in China.
I suppose it's all in how you view it (and no, I admittedly didn't stipulate the contracts being comparable from an economic standpoint - assuming it was understood), but personally, I don't equate a contract with almost $30 Million in guaranteed money and over $20 Million in dead money after year one to a contract with $10 Million in guaranteed money and $4 Million in dead money after year one.

Obviously everyone makes their own determination of what's an apple, and what's an orange, but that's mine.
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Old 09-19-2013   #42
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
This is such baloney....let's just call a spade a spade, Schaub will never get your support or most of the fans here in this town's full support b/c he doesn't have a rocket arm, he's relatively even kiel and not overly fiery & b/c he's not the flavor of the month "running qb".

The only way people will support this dude is if we win a SB.....emphasis on "win" b/c i feel very strongly that even if he were to lead us to a SB but didn't have a great game people here would find some way to blame him & only him for the loss while simultaneously marginalizing what he did to lead the team there in the 1st place.

& that quite honestly isn't fair to him b/c none of these other qb's whether they're good or bad are held to this standard. This is also why i often find myself defending this dude when i don't really want to.
Schaub had my support most of the time until late last season. He might have it again in the future, but I don't know yet. People expect more than 1 playoff win from a QB that is on a team this stacked. TJ Yates can do that. He is rated in the bottom 3rd of QBs right now, & that's not just one website or one type of rating. It's great that he has led game-winning drives lately, & that was something he really need to do, but even with that, his overall performances have almost sucked. There's a LOT of season left, so we'll see which direction he goes in.
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Old 09-19-2013   #43
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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Because, you know, his years in Denver never had him coaching a mobile QB.
Interesting you should say. I don't think it matters how mobile the QB is for Kubiak. If he's exceptionally sharp, like Matt, he can do with a lot less mobility. If he's exceptionally athletic, he can do with a lot less mental acumen.

Look at Jake Plummer's career in Denver. Matt Schaub's ceiling may very well be AFC Championship game. Just because we bring a "more" mobile QB doesn't mean he'll have a higher ceiling. He's got to have the perfect mixture of both.


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The only way people will support this dude is if we win a SB.....
He could win a Super Bowl & I wouldn't support him any more than I do now, wouldn't support him any less either.

However, if goes off in the play-offs & we win the Super Bowl because he had a game like week 1 in San Diego (or Denver last year)... I'd be a Matt Schaub fan for life.
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Old 09-19-2013   #44
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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I guess one way of looking at this is that Schaub has 3 int's in 2 games & that will either improve drastically over time or even Kubiak will be looking to replace him. It's a lot like Bullock's situation, except that Schaub has had at least 3 successful seasons in the past & is no learning rookie.

Personally, I don't like Schaub's overall performance last year, especially late in the season, as he continued to get worse as the games counted more. That doesn't make me feel very indebted to him as a fan, but he has not lost us a game yet this season, & in fact has led game-winning drives despite crappy over-all performances (thank God for Lechler & a sometimes stingy D). We'll see if Schaub's first-half performances improve OR his game-winning drives disappear. The first 2 games weren't good enough overall. Last year wasn't good enough overall. Schaub needs to find his pre-2011 injury self, or else.


look at schaub's time here and you will see the two to one ratio is his norm. If he has thrown 6 td and 3 ints and continues this pace they would not get rid of him
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Old 09-19-2013   #45
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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Schaub had my support most of the time until late last season. He might have it again in the future, but I don't know yet. People expect more than 1 playoff win from a QB that is on a team this stacked. TJ Yates can do that. He is rated in the bottom 3rd of QBs right now, & that's not just one website or one type of rating. It's great that he has led game-winning drives lately, & that was something he really need to do, but even with that, his overall performances have almost sucked. There's a LOT of season left, so we'll see which direction he goes in.


Just because yates and schaub have playoff records of 1-1 doesnt make them equal. Schaub is far better than Yates and to say "Well Yates can do that" is beyond silly
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Old 09-19-2013   #46
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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Schaub had my support most of the time until late last season. He might have it again in the future, but I don't know yet. People expect more than 1 playoff win from a QB that is on a team this stacked. TJ Yates can do that. He is rated in the bottom 3rd of QBs right now, & that's not just one website or one type of rating. It's great that he has led game-winning drives lately, & that was something he really need to do, but even with that, his overall performances have almost sucked. There's a LOT of season left, so we'll see which direction he goes in.
1 playoff win is about the average for most qb's who make it to the playoffs fairly regularly....Hell, that was the case with Manning for a long time before he finally broke through. The same with Flacco. Ryan & to lesser extent Rodgers are the new guy who seem to be 1 & done most years.

Yet, the only guys who even get remotely close to the flack Schaub takes for not winning more in the playoffs is Joe Flacco up until last year & Tony Romo. People gotta stop thinking that 1 playoff win is a bad thing. Manning led his team to the best record in the NFL & he won 0 playoff games last year & has had more of that in his career than any active qb...noone thinks he sucks though.

1st it was "He can't stay healthy.." then it was "he's just not clutch.."...then it was "he can't get us to the playoffs" now it's "he can't lead us to the superbowl". The reality of it is, most fans here just don't like the guy b/c he's not the prototype. His arm strength or something else will always be an issue for them.

Im of the opinion that as long as my team wins & he clearly doesn't show to be the top reason why we can't get to the next level, he's fine.
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Old 09-19-2013   #47
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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1 playoff win is about the average for most qb's who make it to the playoffs fairly regularly....Hell, that was the case with Manning for a long time before he finally broke through. The same with Flacco. Ryan & to lesser extent Rodgers are the new guy who seem to be 1 & done most years.

Yet, the only guys who even get remotely close to the flack Schaub takes for not winning more in the playoffs is Joe Flacco up until last year & Tony Romo. People gotta stop thinking that 1 playoff win is a bad thing. Manning led his team to the best record in the NFL & he won 0 playoff games last year & has had more of that in his career than any active qb...noone thinks he sucks though.

1st it was "He can't stay healthy.." then it was "he's just not clutch.."...then it was "he can't get us to the playoffs" now it's "he can't lead us to the superbowl". The reality of it is, most fans here just don't like the guy b/c he's not the prototype. His arm strength or something else will always be an issue for them.

Im of the opinion that as long as my team wins & he clearly doesn't show to be the top reason why we can't get to the next level, he's fine.
Do you not see a difference between Schaub, Manning, & Rodgers?

Schaub, Romo, Flacco.... are the same guy to me. They do it a little different, but in the end..... they're the same guy.

Ryan. I think Matt Ryan is closer to the Manning & Rodgers group than the Schaub/Flacco group. Schaub, Flacco, & Romo are good enough that you aren't looking for a new QB, but you're looking at once in a blue moon odds of winning the Super Bowl with them & Flacco just reset that clock.
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Old 09-19-2013   #48
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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Just because yates and schaub have playoff records of 1-1 doesnt make them equal. Schaub is far better than Yates and to say "Well Yates can do that" is beyond silly
Yes, Schaub is better than Yates. Yates is a backup QB. He's not a starter and shouldn't be. We used to argue about whether Schaub could take a stacked team to the Superbowl, but that was when he was a top 10 QB (just not top 5). He has not been a top 10 QB since his 2011 injury. Ever since he came back from that injury (start of 2012 season), he has been 22nd or worse. There have been at least 20 better staring QBs in the NFL for a full season plus 2 games. I am not questioning whether we can continue having winning seasons with Schaub. Assuming we want to win a Superbowl, instead of just being a repeat playoff loser for years to come, what I am questioning is whether we can win the whole thing with a QB that hasn't been in the top half of the league's starters for nearly 2 years in real time.
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Old 09-19-2013   #49
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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Considering the only way that either one of them could be a Texan would be by getting selected higher in the draft than the Texans have ever taken a QB, with the exception of HWSNBN, I would say yes. Rick and Gary wouldn't use that high a pick without the absolute expectation of them becoming a starter relatively quickly.
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That has nothing to do with the main question of the thread. The "what if" scenario of when and where they would have been drafted isn't what is being talked about or should be. If either was on this team would they start? I don't care how they got on it.
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In my mind, it has everything to do with the question. The Forty-Niners drafted Kaepernick because Harbaugh and Trent Baalke felt they needed a QB. The Seahawks drafted Russell Wilson because John Schneider - and probably Pete Carrol - felt they needed a QB. They didn't just land on a roster where everyone was happy with the QB they had, and while I will say, giving a third round rookie a starting QB job took some nerve, he was competing with a guy who entered the competition with a grand total of two NFL starts to his name (and FWIW, still has two NFL starts to his name, and just got passed over again in a similar set of circumstances). Maybe we should be talking about what a visionary, gutsy organization the Raiders are.

By definition, two guys as highly regarded as Kaepernick and Wilson were coming out of college are only going to end up on a roster if whoever is making the decision on that roster genuinely believe they need a QB.

I guess it's just as valid to ask if the Niners and Seahawks would have drafted Kaepernick and Wilson if they already had a QB they felt was adequate?
When you think about it, the switch Harbaugh and Carroll made is not unlike what Kubiak did when he went out and got the best QB available to him in 2007. He had little faith (okay, none) in Carr being able to run the offense he wanted to run here so he sought out an upgrade.

Harbaugh saw little upside in Smith and Carroll had no ties to Flynn. Both went out and got a guy they thought better suited to the offense they wanted to run. When the time was right, they cut bait with the incumbents and inserted their hand picked starters.

So yeah, why/how the guys ended up on each respective roster has EVERYTHING to do with a head coach's decision to change starting QBs.
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Old 09-19-2013   #50
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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I don't think Kubiak would know what to do with the likes of Kaepernick or Wilson. I think that Dennys menu can only hold plays designed for drop back passers. Athletic QBs add too much of an X factor and they sometimes have to jettison out of a play and make something happen on their own.
As already mentioned, Kubiak coached Elway to two Super Bowls.

And let's not forget his coaching experience with Steve Young during his MVP and Super Bowl championship.

I do not think mobility is high on Kubiak's "must have list", but I do not doubt for an instance that he would work such a skill into the plays if the QB possessed it.

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No, neither one would be the starting QB for the Texans.

The only reason Elway did what he did was because of Shannahan. Kubiak wants a QB that protects the ball more than anything else. Schaubs INT's this year would be a bigger cause to Yates starting than anything else.
Shanahan has openly stated that Kubiak was calling the offensive plays as OC for Elway during both Super Bowl championship seasons.

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I can't address Texecutioner's point directly because I think he's made up his mind. That said, I recall many wanting Josh Freeman a couple years ago, or Cam Newton after he had a smattering of good games. It's more likely that Wilson and Kaepernick end up the same way. I can't count the number of times I've heard in my lifetime, "This player is going to change the way QB is played forever". Hell, even Joe Flacco looked like Montana reincarnate for a few games in the playoffs last season. Give me Brees, Manning, or Brady any day over the flavour du jour at QB.
This is the second, maybe third, time that the media has gone overboard with "prototype" QBs.

The demise of the pocket passer was all the rage in the late '90's/early 2000s.

Vick, McNabb, Culpepper - these were going to be the first QBs of a new way.

The media blatantly predicted that pocket passers would no longer exist by 2013.

Now look back at the last decade and the QBs winning championships are pocket passers.

Now the mobile read option is all the rage and predictions are up again that pocket QBs are going to be a thing of the past.

BS. The NFL will figure out the read option (already happening) and it will be a fad as a primary offense and go the way of the wildcat, pulled out to trick folks but not a consistent offense because MOBILE QBs GET HURT A LOT.

Unless the NFL passes some goofy rule to have a protection bubble for every QB running down the field...

As far as Texecutioner's hypothetical question: I'd say the answer would be that the QB who wins the off-season/pre-season would start.

I do not believe for an instant that loyalty trumps the right decision. Certainly Kubiak is loyal to Schaub, but I think Kubiak is a HC first and foremost and will pick whoever is the best person to win games for the Texans.
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Old 09-19-2013   #51
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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My buddies and I had this discussion the other day and we all came to the same conclusion that neither of them would and they would be on the sidelines behind Matt Schaub.

Now if you agree with this, I'd say that this is a huge problem with our HC. Now this is not a "Fire Kubiak" thread or anything, because we all know that idea isn't even up for debate. However, Kubiak's stubbornness has always been a huge problem. I think Kubiak is fully willing to ride Schaub until he is either hurt or until it is to late. I don't think that Kubiak will have any intention what so ever to even consider another QB for maybe another two years. We are in a win now mode, and I felt like our offense looked so much better and had way more versatility when Keenum was running it in the pre season. I'm not trying to suggest that Keenum should start right now, but for the first time I started really liking this Texans Kubiak offense when I saw a mobile guy with a stronger arm running it.

Do you feel that Kaepernick or Wilson would start here "right now?" And if you don't how in the world could you justify that not as a huge problem with the HC's judgement?

Again, this is not some Fire Kubiak thread and I don't want it to go that route. We had this discussion the other day and I thought it was very interesting to discuss.
We are in agreement that neither one would start ahead of Schaub. However, at least Kaepernick and maybe both should start ahead of him if we had them. Head coaches often don't recognize poor performance, but just go along with their coordinators and tend to remain with the status quo. When Gif Nielsen was quarterbacking the Oilers he wasn't replaced until Chuck Studley took over as interim HC, and Nielsen couldn't even hit a receiver 15 yards from him in the flat behind the line of scrimmage.

We have the same problem with kicker replacement. How much is a victory worth to the franchise? A million $$? Yet Bullock is evidently going to stay until he loses a game for us, or beyond.
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Old 09-19-2013   #52
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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We have the same problem with kicker replacement. How much is a victory worth to the franchise? A million $$? Yet Bullock is evidently going to stay until he loses a game for us, or beyond.
That's because none of them are perfect. Given enough opportunity, they'll all miss. Bullock won the game for us in San Diego. He didn't against Tennessee, but he didn't lose it either.

I'm willing to see what happens next time.
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Old 09-20-2013   #53
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

Well, I'm willing to say that Bullock SUCKED in his first 2 games, but that could change. Maybe he just needs to get over the jitters of being in real NFL games.

Honestly, I might have overreacted in this thread (about Schaub) after seeing the DVOA and DYAR numbers Schaub has right now in the other thread. One thing that stuck out to me was that he has 3 int.s, which is very high for 2 games, but I didn't think about some intangibles, like the fact that D. Brown has kind of sucked lately (probably because of toe problems) & Schaub has been pressured more.

Probably the most accurate thing to say here is that I both have & will change my mind about Schaub a thousand times. Is he good? Yes. Is he good enough? Well, it depends on the day you ask me, I guess.
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Old 09-20-2013   #54
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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One thing that stuck out to me was that he has 3 int.s, which is very high for 2 games
But this is so far outside the norm that I'm not even worried about it. Schaub has consistently laid down the same numbers year after year, if he makes 16 games, there's no doubt in my mind what his stat line is going to look like.

The only thing I question, is how those stats translate to wins. So far, it's 2-0.. with a great game by Schaub & an eh performance by Schaub with a couple of "elite" QB drives.

I'm not a Schaub fan... but I think the conversation about Schaub is about to change. I just got finished reading this excellent BRB piece, this guy does an excellent job of breaking down certain aspects of the game, all of it very correctable. What's not "correctable" is that Hopkins is already playing at a high level (I know I gave him a hard time in another thread, but this guy uses the all22 feed & I was wrong... all there is to it).

His gifs are from the Chargers game. There's no doubt in my mind when the QBs studied the film, they kept saying, "& Hop is open." Matt showed a lot of trust & faith in Nuk in the second game. That's only going to get better.
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Old 09-20-2013   #55
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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One thing that stuck out to me was that he has 3 int.s, which is very high for 2 games
Funny thing is it would be much more accurate to say Schaub has gotten off to a banging start with TDs. He is only marginally higher than career for INTs (3.2 % v. 2.5%) while he is significantly higher on TDs (6.5% v. 4.3%). That is without being fair and considering 2 of the 3 INTs were tip balls.
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Old 09-20-2013   #56
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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But this is so far outside the norm that I'm not even worried about it. Schaub has consistently laid down the same numbers year after year, if he makes 16 games, there's no doubt in my mind what his stat line is going to look like.
The only thing that I can see that would change his stats would be a change in execution/play-calling in the Red Zone.

In the last two years, the Texans have been #3 and #5 in FG Attempts, and last year were 20-20 on attempts under 40 yards. Tells me that Gary was comfortable with the "sure thing". Conversely, they were #8 and #12 in TD's. This again shows a preclivity to either play it safe or a lack of execution.

This is a real opportunity for this team, but Schaub only has the ability change one of those outcomes. Of course, Kubiak only has the ability to change one of those as well. It will take them both doing something different than they have in the past in order for those FGA's to turn into XPA's.
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Old 09-20-2013   #57
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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Let's line up Schaub, Yates and Keenum and have 'em all pee on an electric fence. The one smart enough to hold his dick with his left hand will be our new starter.


After I cleaned the coffee off my computer screen I figured the thread would be over..lol.
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Old 09-20-2013   #58
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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Funny thing is it would be much more accurate to say Schaub has gotten off to a banging start with TDs. He is only marginally higher than career for INTs (3.2 % v. 2.5%) while he is significantly higher on TDs (6.5% v. 4.3%). That is without being fair and considering 2 of the 3 INTs were tip balls.


Good way of putting it 51% increase vs 28% and I agree on the tipped balls.
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Old 09-20-2013   #59
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

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In the last two years, the Texans have been #3 and #5 in FG Attempts, and last year were 20-20 on attempts under 40 yards. Tells me that Gary was comfortable with the "sure thing". Conversely, they were #8 and #12 in TD's. This again shows a preclivity to either play it safe or a lack of execution.
Not sure that shows what you think. The Niners and Giants were #1 and #2 on FG attempts and #10 and #7 on TDs. Is Harbaugh a sure thing, play it safe kind of coach? What that reflects to me is teams getting into scoring position frequently. Of the top 10 scoring teams all but the Saints and Seahawks are high on the FGA list. Look at the 10 fewest FGA teams and all sucked at scoring except for the Saints and Redskins.
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Old 09-20-2013   #60
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Default Re: If Kaepernick or Wilson were a Texan would they be the starting QB?

The true outlier in mobility with Kubiak's time working with QBs has Matt Schaub. All of the other QBs he has worked with were at least average (see TJ yates, Greise), if not above (Jake the snake). there are a ton of rolls and bootlegs in this offense. The idea he could not work with Wilson or Kaepernick is faulty in its core premise.
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