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Old 08-16-2013   #1
Texans_Chick
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Default Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

Dolphins Q&A with Andrew Abramson + Texans end of camp notes

Brief Q&A with a Dolphins beat writer.

Plus last year's numbers just for some general context.

Plus things I will be watching for, which in some ways serves as a post-camp wrap up.

Likely has some stuff you know, stuff you don't know, pretty much a summary of my thoughts on a lot of the stuff y'all have been talking about.

Oh and Case. Because you have to talk about Case.
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Old 08-16-2013   #2
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

Another good read, Steph.

Quess stood out for me at Senior Bowl practice -- surprised we got him so low. And great pic...


(Brett Coomer/Chronicle)
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Old 08-16-2013   #3
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

Brett Coomer is a great dude. Some of the pics he has on his Instagram via Twitter are fantastic.

Since moving to the Ultimate Texans site, they do pics for me so I don't have to scramble around for them. Unless I want to add my own like the Schaubnado, which I still can.
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Old 08-16-2013   #4
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

Nice compilation, TC.

Antonio, take out your sword........when the refs aren't watching...........



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Old 08-16-2013   #5
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

I don't want to turn this into another Case vs TJ thread. But I don't want to talk about the Dolphins, and your strongest opinion in the blog is about Keenum.
Quote:
Keenum is going to need to have a spectacular performance in this game relative to Yates to have the possibility of passing him up on the depth chart. Why?


Keenum is less than ideal size for NFL development.He’s a second-year player with no real game experience. He has had a much better camp than last year, but he was not good last year. He hasn’t had such a spectacular camp where you go, hmmm, we have to keep this guy on the regular roster. The flip side is that T.J. Yates hasn’t had such a spectacular camp where he is the no-brainer, declare him the backup.
I don't see a reason in here why Keenum has to be spectacularly better than Yates. I do think Keenum has to be better. I think Kubiak (and any other NFL head coach) wants to put the player in that gives his team the best chance to win. I don't think he would play Yates over Keenum if he felt that Keenum was the better QB. Regardless of height and experience.

Quote:
Keenum, unlike Yates, also has practice squad eligibility.
I don't see that as a factor in who would be the backup. If the Texans like both QBs a lot, I think they keep them both. On the flip side, if they aren't comfortable going into this season with either as the backup, maybe they should be taking a look at the waiver wire. I think the equation is pretty simple. The best QB between Yates and Keenum should backup Schaub. If the 3rd best QB is one of the best 53 players, then he should be on the roster. Finally, if the idea of playing either at QB keeps the Texans up at night, keep looking.
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Old 08-17-2013   #6
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
I don't want to turn this into another Case vs TJ thread. But I don't want to talk about the Dolphins, and your strongest opinion in the blog is about Keenum.
I don't see a reason in here why Keenum has to be spectacularly better than Yates. I do think Keenum has to be better. I think Kubiak (and any other NFL head coach) wants to put the player in that gives his team the best chance to win. I don't think he would play Yates over Keenum if he felt that Keenum was the better QB. Regardless of height and experience.

I don't see that as a factor in who would be the backup. If the Texans like both QBs a lot, I think they keep them both. On the flip side, if they aren't comfortable going into this season with either as the backup, maybe they should be taking a look at the waiver wire. I think the equation is pretty simple. The best QB between Yates and Keenum should backup Schaub. If the 3rd best QB is one of the best 53 players, then he should be on the roster. Finally, if the idea of playing either at QB keeps the Texans up at night, keep looking.
My thinking>

If there is a tie between two players, the preference will be for the player that has real game experience and NFL measurables and can't be stashed on the practice squad. So unless Case is no brainer awesome and TJ is no brainer miserable, any equivalent sort of performance favors TJ because of roster flexibility issues and project to the NFL measurables.

Game 2 is the key game because CK is getting the true backup sort of snaps. Game 3 will have fewer opportunities. And game 4 is a scrub fest with the bare minimum of starter guys playing just to get through the game. So he needs to very much take advantage of the rare opportunity he has received. If he excels, maybe he gets the backup snaps game 3.

It is rare. Can you ever remember Kubiak flipping who the backup is from game one to game two?

Kubiak has repeatedly has said not to read too much into CK going 2nd. He is trying to create competition that is fair. He repeatedly says he wants to make snaps even. To see what he has in CK against better competition, and to light a fire under TJ who should be playing better than he is going into year 3.

The creating real competition thing is real. Sometimes in practice when CK faces the better defensive group it looks like clown school stuff from CK. Mentally, you can see CK's improvement because he looks much better this year in 7 on 7s than he did last year. 11 on 11s are a bit more of an adventure.

(FWIW, the offense did not look good this week in camp w/Schaub missing part, then coming back. In particular, CK looked horrific the day that the U of H football team came out. Like throws off back foot into zipcodes where his receivers were not at. That was a very Kubiak facepalm day).

As for 2/3 QBs on roster, the Texans have gone both ways. Last year they carried 3 because Schaub was coming off injury, and then they booted Beck (who actually looked the best in preseason of the backups), after they needed bodies in different parts of the roster.

The bottom of the roster may be important at the outside linebacker/wide receiver/oline positions. So if you can stash a QB who knows your system on p squad, it is better than having to have him hold a clipboard on the 53 man roster. A lot of this has to do with injuries on other parts of the team.

I do think the backup QB position keeps the Texans up at night. I think the 2011 season they had to coach their asses off trying to deal. I do not think either Yates/Keenum are the future of the franchise guy or are even the 1A QB option that Sage Rosenfels was. But even backup quarterbacks are expensive, so trying to find a developmental guy to work with is a hard and an imprecise science. The Orlovsky experiment best illustrates. You can look at tape and talk to people but you don't know how he is going to be mentally and physically under your system until you work with them.

I agree that if Kubiak thought that Keenum was better than Yates, he would put Keenum as backup. I don't think he thinks that--but he wants fair tools to evaluate so this week he is seeing what CK can do against better competition. And it isn't just the results of the play--it is the decision making, clock management, handling situations as well.
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Old 08-17-2013   #7
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

Chase Daniel is 5/8 of an inch shorter than Keenum; he also ran a spread system in college.

He was an UDFA for the Skins.
He was cut on the final roster day, Sept 5.
He was picked up by the Saints the next day to their PS.
He was activated to the active roster, named as emergency third string QB for one game, only to be cut two weeks later.
He would be resigned to the PS and cut a few more time during the season, but got a SB ring as the third QB behind Brees and Mark Brunnel.

The next year, the Saints brought in veteran Patrick Ramsey, a former first round draft pick.
According to Wikipedia, Ramsey and Daniel put up comparative numbers in preseason, but the Saints decided to waive Ramsey and to keep Daniel as their backup QB.

In summary, an UDFA (with limited stature) waived by a team, can be picked up by another.
This unheralded QB, in his second training camp (and his first with the team), who didn't clearly beat out a veteran in preseason (let alone decimating him), can make the team as the backup QB.
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Old 08-17-2013   #8
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
My thinking>

I do not think either Yates/Keenum are the future of the franchise guy or are even the 1A QB option that Sage Rosenfels was...
I agree, and expect we will try to address this after the season.
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Old 08-17-2013   #9
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

In 2000, the Patriots had Beldsoe as the starter and 33-yr old veteran John Friesz as the backup.
Second year dual-threat QB Michael Bishop (drafted on the seventh round the previous year) and Tom Brady duked it out in TC.
Belichik kept both of them as third and fourth QB on the roster.
(Bishop played in one game - and threw a 44-yd TD pass at the end of the FIRST half in one game; he ended the year going 3-9).
Brady was 1-3 for 6 yards in mop up duty the whole season.

Why didn't Belichik try to put one of them on the PS?
Bishop was sent to play in Europe the following year (the European season was before TC.)
The Pats released him in late August, and the Packers picked him up to give him a try, but he didn't make their roster.

This example is only to demonstrate that some coaches (at least four so far - but I know there were more if I keep digging) may see something in a prospect that he wants to see if he can develop.
Some work out, many don't.
That doesn't mean that none works out, and that no coach ever wanted to try.
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Old 08-17-2013   #10
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

According to Wiki, Jon Kitna had started applying for High School coaching jobs in 1996 when he finished his college career at Central Michigan in the NAIA.

It was by chance that Dennis Erikson arrived at CM to give his nephew a try-out; Kitna was throwing.
Erikson liked him enough to give him a try-out with the Seahawks even though he already had four QBs at camp.
Kitna was sent to Europe while the other four stayed on the active roster: Rick Mirer was the starter; a younger Friesz (29) was the backup; veteran journeyman Stan Gelbaugh was third in the pecking order; and 26-yr old Gino Toretta (a former 7th rounder in 2003) who has been out of the NFL for 3 years after sitting on the bench for the Vikings his rookie year, was given a chance as the fourth QB.

In 1997, the Seahawks traded away Mirer, brought Warren Moon in as their starter, kept Friesz, but also elevated Kitna to their roster.
Even though Friesz had had 36 starts under his belt, Kitna eventually became the backup, but not right of the bat.
Friesz saw significant playing time in game 1, but was only 9-21 for 79 yards (no TD, no INT).
Kitna came in and was recorded for two rushing attempts for negative 2 yards in game 3 with no passing attempt.
Friesz then stunk it up in game 14 with 3 Ints.
It was then that Kitna began saw playing time in game 15 and 16.

Here, we see that Kitna didn't beat out Friesz at the beginning of the year, but he was kept on the roster.
This could be due to the veteran factor, as Friesz was 30 at the time (with 36 starts in the NFL) while Kitna was only 25 with no NFL experience.

On the other hand, Keenum is 3 months older than Yates.
(Feb 17 as opposed to May 28, 1988).
Due to Keenum's medical red-shirt season, Yates had a year up on experience in the NFL.

The most important thing for Keenum is to make the roster; he doesn't even have to "beat out" Yates.
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Old 08-17-2013   #11
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

Dude, have you ever heard of beating a dead horse?
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Old 08-17-2013   #12
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

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Dude, have you ever heard of beating a dead horse?
As been said many times over, and I don't mean to be rude, those who are not interested don't have to read.

The thing is I only respond to something that was said by another poster.
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Old 08-17-2013   #13
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
The most important thing for Keenum is to make the roster; he doesn't even have to "beat out" Yates.
Keenum on the Texans isn't important.

It would be cool if he stays on practice squad. It would cool if he could push Yates to be better. It would be cool if he got a job with someone else where he could make a proper roster. It would be cool if he stayed with the Texans and turned into some transcendent quarterback worth discussing.

It would be cool if he stayed somewhere on the team in 2013. That if he showed enough to justify it. If he didn't, you get some other end of the roster, random QB to kick tires on.
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Old 08-17-2013   #14
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
Keenum on the Texans isn't important.

It would be cool if he stays on practice squad. It would cool if he could push Yates to be better. It would be cool if he got a job with someone else where he could make a proper roster. It would be cool if he stayed with the Texans and turned into some transcendent quarterback worth discussing.

It would be cool if he stayed somewhere on the team in 2013. That if he showed enough to justify it. If he didn't, you get some other end of the roster, random QB to kick tires on.
All the bolded are cool.

The unbolded is obviously cool for you and many Texans fans; however, it is not necessarily cool for others.

The point is just that I respectfully disagree with some of the premises that led to your conclusion.

For example, you said because he's an short UDFA, you are certain that nobody would claim him off waiver this year.
That is not necessarily true, since we have seen another short UDFA who was left off a team and was picked up by another (Chase Daniel.)

I will just leave it at that, as I've already made my point, just as you have made yours. No hard feeling.
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Old 08-17-2013   #15
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
For example, you said because he's an short UDFA, you are certain that nobody would claim him off waiver this year.
That is not necessarily true, since we have seen another short UDFA who was left off a team and was picked up by another (Chase Daniel.)

I will just leave it at that, as I've already made my point, just as you have made yours. No hard feeling.
I want whatever is best for the Texans. Root for all the players to do their best. I do not have the opinion based on what I know now that Keenum is important to the future of the Texans. I'm sharing my view because I've seen most of his camp this year and last.

I am not "certain" that nobody would claim him off of waivers this year. Never said that. They certainly could if wanted to roster him. In addition, if they had roster flexibility, they could claim him prior to a Texans game just to pump him for information. i just think that the odds of a team wanting a short, okay QB they haven't had in their own camp isn't huge.

My view is even if someone claims him off the practice squad, it isn't the end of the world because he isn't someone I project as a full time NFL starter. Keenum has the psquad possibility. TJ doesn't. Which is just another factor in the backup QB decision.
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Old 08-17-2013   #16
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

I'm getting a little tired of the "too short" Group think people keep spouting as a negative for Case. He's 6-1/6-2. Russell Wilson is 5-11. Drew Brees is 6-0.

If you don't think Case can play, then step up and say THAT. But this "so-and so does not have NFL height" B/S needs to be put in the same garbage bin as "Blacks aren't smart enough to play QB or MLB" (VY not withstanding) or "women should stick to cooking shows and not cover sports". ALL are nonsense.
Just stop it.
/rant
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Old 08-17-2013   #17
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
I'm getting a little tired of the "too short" Group think people keep spouting as a negative for Case. He's 6-1/6-2. Russell Wilson is 5-11. Drew Brees is 6-0.

If you don't think Case can play, then step up and say THAT. But this "so-and so does not have NFL height" B/S needs to be put in the same garbage bin as "Blacks aren't smart enough to play QB or MLB" (VY not withstanding) or "women should stick to cooking shows and not cover sports". ALL are nonsense.
Just stop it.
/rant
That had to be said, succinctly and directly. Thank you!
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Old 08-17-2013   #18
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

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If you don't think Case can play, then step up and say THAT.
I think Texans_Chick has said that.

Quote:
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Keenum on the Texans isn't important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
I do not think either Yates/Keenum are the future of the franchise guy or are even the 1A QB option that Sage Rosenfels was.
I don't think the size or practice squad eligibility arguments hold water. But the crux of her posts revolve around her opinion that Keenum isn't good. I think she has owned that.
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Old 08-17-2013   #19
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
I think Texans_Chick has said that.





I don't think the size or practice squad eligibility arguments hold water. But the crux of her posts revolve around her opinion that Keenum isn't good. I think she has owned that.
I didn't take it as Obsiwan making that comment directed only to TC. There has been a group of posters that have continued to point out his supposed height challenged status as a significant factor in believing that he cannot make in the NFL, as a starter or a backup. I guess Obsiwan can best answer to whom it may have been directed.
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Old 08-17-2013   #20
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Default Re: Dolphins preview + post camp wrap-up

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
I didn't take it as Obsiwan making that comment directed only to TC. There has been a group of posters that have continued to point out his supposed height challenged status as a significant factor in believing that he cannot make in the NFL, as a starter or a backup. I guess Obsiwan can best answer to whom it may have been directed.
FWIW, I've only taken the height talk as a disadvantage that he'd have to overcome, not a significant factor that will determine whether he'll make it or not.
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