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Texans whistling past the graveyard at Kicker

the wonger need food

the wonger need food

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Our Texans have some issues going into training camp next week. Inside LB, right side of OL, QB, Nose Tackle, WR depth, Safety... we have more questions than answers at this point.

Our biggest concern however may be an area that isn't really being discussed.... Place Kicker. Randy Bullock is the lone PK on the roster and given his limited reps last preseason he is a huge question mark. He was somewhat shaky on field goals and showed a weak leg on kickoffs. Obviously this is an extremely important position that often wins or loses games for a team, especially one involved in a lot of close games like the Texans given their ultra-conservative play with a lead.

With zero competition on the roster it seems like the organization is content to just whistle past the graveyard on this one and hope for the best which seems like a huge risk. What say you???
 
the wonger need food said:
Our Texans have some issues going into training camp next week. Inside LB, right side of OL, QB, Nose Tackle, WR depth, Safety... we have more questions than answers at this point.

Our biggest concern however may be an area that isn't really being discussed.... Place Kicker. Randy Bullock is the lone PK on the roster and given his limited reps last preseason he is a huge question mark. He was somewhat shaky on field goals and showed a weak leg on kickoffs. Obviously this is an extremely important position that often wins or loses games for a team, especially one involved in a lot of close games like the Texans given their ultra-conservative play with a lead.

With zero competition on the roster it seems like the organization is content to just whistle past the graveyard on this one and hope for the best which seems like a huge risk. What say you???
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Agree, and very concerned. Hoping for the best. We'll see.
 
Brandon420tx said:
Maybe you missed it, but he was referring to Shane Lechler, whom the Texans signed this offseason
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Maybe you missed it but Lechler is a Punter... not a Kicker.

Bullock couldn't even get the ball into the end zone last preseason in an era where touchbacks occur about 50% of the time. Time for Coach Joe to earn his money...
 
the wonger need food said:
What leads you to assume this? Has Shane Lechler ever been used for kickoffs in his career???
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The placekicker is usually the kickoff man, but punters are used often enough that it's not that unusual. And Lechler has had one of the strongest legs in the league for years. I would guess that he can boot it pretty far, just without a lot of accuracy, hence why he is a punter.
 
Clamp said:
The placekicker is usually the kickoff man, but punters are used often enough that it's not that unusual. And Lechler has had one of the strongest legs in the league for years. I would guess that he can boot it pretty far, just without a lot of accuracy, hence why he is a punter.
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Punters are seldom used for kickoffs in the NFL and it's highly unlikely that Lechler will be used here. Completely different muscle memory.

With that said, Kubiak values players with multiple skill sets so it's also unlikely that a specialist will be brought in. Hopefully Bullock can be coached up and start booting the ball out of the end zone.
 
the wonger need food said:
Maybe you missed it but Lechler is a Punter... not a Kicker.

Bullock couldn't even get the ball into the end zone last preseason in an era where touchbacks occur about 50% of the time. Time for Coach Joe to earn his money...
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Maybe you missed it but...Bullock was injured. He tried to play through the pain and it affected his performance. Is it a question mark for the team? Sure but not a big one until we see him in the preseason.
 
Considering his injury, I'd contribute his poor performance to that.

Here is his percentage of touchback's at Texas A&M with him kicking five yards further than what occurs in the NFL.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2011/player/697/1018534/kickoff/split.html

And here is the percentage for touchback's in the NFL. Take note of the before and after rule change.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/kickoff-touchback-pct?date=2011-02-07

You guys are number crunchers, tell me I'm not old and blind. I'll just whistle right on out of this thread :popcorn:
 
Guess we'll wait and see for preseason whether it will be Bullock or Lechler. Saying he's a punter doesn't really matter. Texans used Hartmann in 2011 for kickoffs a majority of the time. Not to mention 4 of the top ten kickoff personnel in touchbacks were actually punters

Michael Koenen (TB) - 4th avg distance 2nd Touchbacks
Matt Bosher (Atl) - 8th avg distance 6th(tie) Touchbacks
Thomas Morstead (NO) - 14th avg distance 6th(tie) Touchbacks
Pat McAfee (Indy) - 3rd avg. distance 6th(tie) Touchbacks

I'm more concerned with the coverage since returners are taking them out of the endzone lately. We seemed to be running in mud when it came to coverage except a couple of individuals. Kickers are always available if needed for bargain dollars and can leap in at any moment so time remains on a decision in this direction if they see fit.
 
the wonger need food said:
Maybe you missed it but Lechler is a Punter... not a Kicker.

Bullock couldn't even get the ball into the end zone last preseason in an era where touchbacks occur about 50% of the time. Time for Coach Joe to earn his money...
Click to expand...

Maybe you missed it but not only Shane do kickoff's at A&M but he's also done them throughout his NFL career. That's what leads me to believe he is capable of it.
 
Lechler has a total of 16 kick-offs over a 13 year career. 9 of those came in his rookie season.

Out of those 16 kicks only one was a Touch Back (All of his kicks were done under the old distance) and his longest kick of 75 yards was returned for a TD. He's never kicked an onside kick in the NFL.

Lechlers career avg would have put him at about 15 or so among kickers last year for distance. And that's with a small sample size + kicking under the old distance.

He hasn't done a kick-off in 3 years. He's gone 7 years of his career without doing a single kick-off.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he won't be our regular kick-off man unless the Texans just want to try some shyt.
 
the wonger need food said:
Our Texans have some issues going into training camp next week. Inside LB, right side of OL, QB, Nose Tackle, WR depth, Safety... we have more questions than answers at this point.
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I think you can scratch Nose Tackle off your list. We don't like the guys they've got there, but I believe it's getting more & more obvious that the Texans are looking for something different from what we are looking for. They appear to have put the same "type" of person/player in that position for years, it's deliberate.

LB, I think the team has done a good job in trying to answer that question. Time will tell. Cushing Sharpton, Reed, & Mercilus.... done. Sharpton & Cushing had some health issues last season, let's hope they are past them now. Dobbins, moving Reed inside, Braman, Sonic, & Travardo.. plan B, C, & D

Safety, again I think they've made a good attempt so far, Pleasant will probably make the team & I'm expecting to see Harris take a few snaps at Safety in the PreSeason.... a back up to the back up so to speak.
 
Rey said:
Lechler has a total of 16 kick-offs over a 13 year career. 9 of those came in his rookie season.

Out of those 16 kicks only one was a Touch Back (All of his kicks were done under the old distance) and his longest kick of 75 yards was returned for a TD. He's never kicked an onside kick in the NFL.

Lechlers career avg would have put him at about 15 or so among kickers last year for distance. And that's with a small sample size + kicking under the old distance.

He hasn't done a kick-off in 3 years. He's gone 7 years of his career without doing a single kick-off.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he won't be our regular kick-off man unless the Texans just want to try some shyt.
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Considering the other guy kicking the ball in Oakland is/was Sebastian Janikowski, who would you have doing kickoffs?


That 2000 Draft was pretty good for OAK ST. Kicker in the 1st and Punter in the 5th for the next 12 years.
 
PapaL said:
Considering the other guy kicking the ball in Oakland is/was Sebastian Janikowski, who would you have doing kickoffs?
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The point is that he doesn't have much experience at all doing it in the NFL and as far as I know the Texans have give 0 indication that he'd be doing it.

If you think that he will be the kick off guy...ok...

But based on his limited experience there I don't believe he will.
 
Sheesh we need football. We're talking about freaking kickoffs lol. Not much science into kicking it off but here we are disecting it. Got to love offseason, heh.
 
Rey said:
The point is that he doesn't have much experience at all doing it in the NFL and as far as I know the Texans have give 0 indication that he'd be doing it.

If you think that he will be the kick off guy...ok...

But based on his limited experience there I don't believe he will.
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He throws passes and don't have much experience doing that either - oh wait expect he ALSO did that at A&M too.

If you don't think he'll be the guy cool, more power to you.

He's the only guy on our roster with ANY experience doing it; both NCAA and NFL.
 
deucetx said:
Sheesh we need football. We're talking about freaking kickoffs lol. Not much science into kicking it off but here we are disecting it. Got to love offseason, heh.
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Normally I would be saying this right there with ya. But, Graham was horrible on KOs. IMO, with the new rule an NFL kicker should hit the endzone dang near every KO. I mean, at least make the returner have to make the decision to bring it out. It seemed like Graham was continually hitting the 5 yard line, giving the returner no choice but to run with it.

That, in addition to our crappy STs overall is a major issue.
 
HOU-TEX said:
Normally I would be saying this right there with ya. But, Graham was horrible on KOs. IMO, with the new rule an NFL kicker should hit the endzone dang near every KO. I mean, at least make the returner have to make the decision to bring it out. It seemed like Graham was continually hitting the 5 yard line, giving the returner no choice but to run with it.

That, in addition to our crappy STs overall is a major issue.
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With our coverage team being as bad as they were I understand the concern, but I would think you'd want The ball to land inside the 5 giving your coverage team the chance to pin them inside the 5, or 10... anything shorter than the 20 & you win.

I don't see the point in kicking it into the end zone every time & giving them 20 yards.
 
thunderkyss said:
With our coverage team being as bad as they were I understand the concern, but I would think you'd want The ball to land inside the 5 giving your coverage team the chance to pin them inside the 5, or 10... anything shorter than the 20 & you win.

I don't see the point in kicking it into the end zone every time & giving them 20 yards.
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I don't think so, you might want to take a gander at KO return averages. Considering the average KO return ranges from Stefon Logan's 21.3 to Jacoby Jones' 30.7 yards, I'd think we'd be better off with the possibility of the touchback.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/returning/sort/yardsPerKickReturn

You'd be correct if it was a punt
 
Training camp begins a week from tomorrow (7/25).
:texflag:
Let's see who does what in camp.
 
the wonger need food said:
Our Texans have some issues going into training camp next week. Inside LB, right side of OL, QB, Nose Tackle, WR depth, Safety... we have more questions than answers at this point.

Our biggest concern however may be an area that isn't really being discussed.... Place Kicker. Randy Bullock is the lone PK on the roster and given his limited reps last preseason he is a huge question mark. He was somewhat shaky on field goals and showed a weak leg on kickoffs. Obviously this is an extremely important position that often wins or loses games for a team, especially one involved in a lot of close games like the Texans given their ultra-conservative play with a lead.

With zero competition on the roster it seems like the organization is content to just whistle past the graveyard on this one and hope for the best which seems like a huge risk. What say you???
Click to expand...

It's pretty easy to tell whether or not a kicker has range and accuracy in the preseason. If he does, we are good. If not, there are others around.

This team's problem isn't place kicker. We need a WR to step up among other things.
 
the wonger need food said:
Maybe you missed it but Lechler is a Punter... not a Kicker.

Bullock couldn't even get the ball into the end zone last preseason in an era where touchbacks occur about 50% of the time. Time for Coach Joe to earn his money...
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the punter kicks the football which makes him a kicker. :lion:
 
BullBlitz said:
It's pretty easy to tell whether or not a kicker has range and accuracy in the preseason. If he does, we are good. If not, there are others around.

This team's problem isn't place kicker. We need a WR to step up among other things.
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Well thought out post from a Texans fan.....

in rebuttal, I know we like to think we're part of the decision making process & need to see what we need to see. But if the coaches don't know by now what kind of range Bullock has (through OTAs, through mini-camp) then they won't learn anything in the preseason.
 
BullBlitz said:
It's pretty easy to tell whether or not a kicker has range and accuracy in the preseason. If he does, we are good. If not, there are others around.

This team's problem isn't place kicker. We need a WR to step up among other things.
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So...the Colts maybe/may not be good with their kicker? :kitten:

So...the Colts need a WR to step up? :kitten:

What are the "among other things" that your team is lacking? :kitten:
 
PapaL said:
Maybe you missed it but not only Shane do kickoff's at A&M but he's also done them throughout his NFL career. That's what leads me to believe he is capable of it.
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No, I saw it. He's kicked off a few times in his career however it is not a strength. NFL kickers have lost jobs due to short kickoffs and Kubiak isn't likely to bring in a specialist for this and waste an important roster spot.

You guys tried to make the same argument for Casey and Dreesen long snapping because you didn't understand the importance of that .3 seconds faster that Jon Weeks gets the ball back to the kicker.

The NFL game is literally a game of inches and fractions of seconds. Teams don't just plug in someone to do a job because they might be okay at it sometimes. In an age where almost 50% of all kickoffs are touchbacks, that is the expectation and they will need a player with the ability to kick it deep consistently.
 
Maybe you missed it...

No, Maybe you missed it...

No, I believe you missed it...

What I didn't miss was a bunch of people acting like Ninnies!!
 
HOU-TEX said:
Normally I would be saying this right there with ya. But, Graham was horrible on KOs. IMO, with the new rule an NFL kicker should hit the endzone dang near every KO. I mean, at least make the returner have to make the decision to bring it out. It seemed like Graham was continually hitting the 5 yard line, giving the returner no choice but to run with it.

That, in addition to our crappy STs overall is a major issue.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Even if the ST coach wants to call a short KO like at the 5 because he has confidence most of the time with his coverage team, that kicker should still have the ability to otherwise kick that ball out of the end zone at will. This should be an absolute in that you don't want to lose a close late game because of a short kick leading to a huge return.
 
thunderkyss said:
With our coverage team being as bad as they were I understand the concern, but I would think you'd want The ball to land inside the 5 giving your coverage team the chance to pin them inside the 5, or 10... anything shorter than the 20 & you win.

I don't see the point in kicking it into the end zone every time & giving them 20 yards.
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I completely agree with the thinking; don't automatically "gift" them the ball at the 20 if you can pin them inside of it. The question is, can we get sufficient hang time - short kicks OUGHT to be higher - to smother the returner and make this strategy work?

If we can, I like it!
 
ObsiWan said:
I completely agree with the thinking; don't automatically "gift" them the ball at the 20 if you can pin them inside of it. The question is, can we get sufficient hang time - short kicks OUGHT to be higher - to smother the returner and make this strategy work?

If we can, I like it!
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Moving the ball up changes the game, I'm hoping we're trying to change as well. Personally I'm not going to hold it against the kicker if the ball is dropped in front of the endzone, or anywhere near the goal line, that's where I want it. if he can get the hangtime where my team can cross their 20 before they field the ball, I'm happy.
 
rawImage.jpg
-Chron.com

Texans' eyes will be on Bullock's right leg (Chron alert)

"He showed us a lot before he got hurt," Kubiak said as he prepared for his eighth training camp with the Texans. "We believe in him because we know what he's capable of doing."
...
Marciano scouted Bullock extensively. He was so high on Bullock that you would have thought Marciano was an Aggie, too.
...
During camp, Bullock suffered a groin injury but didn't tell anyone at first. Marciano noticed his getting less distance on his kickoffs and field goals in practice. One day, Bullock showed Marciano his upper leg, and the inside was so purple that it was turning black.
...
"The kid gets distance on his kickoffs," Kubiak said.

Kickoffs are a big reason Bullock has the job. Graham didn't kick off as deep as the coaches wanted...

The Texans were so bad on kickoff coverage that they ranked last in the NFL, giving opponents an average starting field position of the 25.6-yard line. The league average was the 22.1. Of the Texans' 92 kickoffs, only 13 saw their opponents start inside their 20.

So Bullock has to kick deep on kickoffs, and his teammates have to do a much better job on coverage.

On field goals, where games are won and lost, Bullock has an exceptional snapper in Jon Weeks. Holder Shane Lechler is one of the greatest punters in NFL history.

Something to keep an eye on in camp is Lechler's holding for a right-footed kicker for the first time in his career. When Lechler was the holder during his 13 seasons at Oakland, his kicker was the left-footed Sebastian Janikowski.

Watching Lechler and Bullock work together for the first time will be one of the more interesting things about training camp. And they'd better click, or the Texans will have to make adjustments.
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Marciano seems to be able to spot the talent. . . making use of it is another story all together.
 
Based on what I saw of him in college, count me very skeptical on the adductor tear being the sole reason for his shorter kickoffs and FG attempts in preseason. He wasn't dealing with any adductor problems in college. This is not even to mention the concern of rookie "nerves" in critical situations. The only time I can honestly say I ever saw Bullock demonstrate a "big leg" is last year from the swelling seen after the tear.:spy:
 
Stemp said:
Coaches would go further and would love to have a kicker who could kick it through the end zone every time and not give returners a chance at all.
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I think it might be worth it to use a roster spot for a kick-off-er who could give you 100% touchbacks.

It would reduce the injuries on kickoffs after teams realized it was auto-touchback ..... it would reduce the need for a special teams monster tackler spot on the roster (but not for a blocker when we receive the kick) ..... and it puts you at the top of the league. I'd do it. :smiliedance:
 
My problem is this; what if he's re-injured or strains something else? The fact that we never went out and got another K is kinda disturbing, IMO. How can the coaching staff trust in something they've never seen?
 
HOU-TEX said:
My problem is this; what if he's re-injured or strains something else? The fact that we never went out and got another K is kinda disturbing, IMO. How can the coaching staff trust in something they've never seen?
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Very disturbing!

Wake up people. Does anyone really believe that Shane Graham was brought in by the Texans to be an HONEST competition for Bullock? He was just THERE for the SHOW. Bullock was THE CHOSEN ONE right from the pick. But Bullock wasn't really showing up Graham in any way, in fact there were times that Graham looked better............then, when Bullock suffered his untimely injury, the Texans suddenly found themselves "stuck" with someone they never wanted or expected.........Graham. This year, if they can help it, they don't want anyone getting in the way of "their" boy..........hence no challenger to"accidentally" mess with their plans........and even if Bullock comes in last in the "competition" this year, he will still be first on the Texans roster..........INGENIOUS!:kitten:
 
thunderkyss said:
That just means a lot of teams are doing it wrong.

The game is changing & as soon as we start seeing kickers who can get some air under the ball & drop it in the 5, the league will start looking for more of them.
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I don't know if you realize how hard that is.

To kick the ball that high off of a kicking tee and be able to pin a team inside the 5 would require skill that this league has never seen.

When was the last time you saw someone fair catch a normal kick-off? Not one of those short pooches...but a kick off that went past the twenty?

If there is a kicker that can make teams fair catch inside their own ten yard line, they'd be guaranteed a roster spot even if they couldn't do anything else. Even if they couldn't kick extra points.

Do you realize how valuable that would be?

I understand the idea you have, but kickers aren't able to kick the ball that high and that far in order to give the return team enough time to get down there to be pinned inside the 5.

I agree with it in principal, but I don't think it's a realistic expectation.

I mean...I like the high and deep (but not too deep) approach with a strong legged kicker...But you are realistically still looking at a stop around the 15-20..maybe around the 11 or 12 if you are lucky/that good. And if a guy is able to run with it and doesn't have to call a fair catch, there's always the chance it could go much farther.

Having said all that, if I'm a coach I'd rather kick it out of the EZ and have opposing teams start on the 20 every time and not even risk having them return it.
 
Rey said:
I don't know if you realize how hard that is.

To kick the ball that high off of a kicking tee and be able to pin a team inside the 5 would require skill that this league has never seen.
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Yeah..... I'm not expecting anyone to pin anyone inside the 5. I want a kicker who can get the ball so high, that if it drops inside the 5, my coverage team is already crossing the 20. If they do their job right from there, they should be able pin the returner short of the 20.

He doesn't even have to drop it inside the 5..... 5 yards into the endzone would be fine. But my coverage team has to be at the 20, or at the very least crossing the 25 when it's fielded. I want that guy to come out of the endzone, because I want to stop him before the 20.

I want him to risk fumbling the ball.

If our Special Teams were as bad as they were last year, absolutely I want to kick it out the back of the endzone every time.
 
thunderkyss said:
Yeah..... I'm not expecting anyone to pin anyone inside the 5. I want a kicker who can get the ball so high, that if it drops inside the 5, my coverage team is already crossing the 20. If they do their job right from there, they should be able pin the returner short of the 20.

He doesn't even have to drop it inside the 5..... 5 yards into the endzone would be fine. But my coverage team has to be at the 20, or at the very least crossing the 25 when it's fielded. I want that guy to come out of the endzone, because I want to stop him before the 20.

I want him to risk fumbling the ball.

If our Special Teams were as bad as they were last year, absolutely I want to kick it out the back of the endzone every time.
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Gotcha....That makes sense to me...
 
thunderkyss said:
Yeah..... I'm not expecting anyone to pin anyone inside the 5. I want a kicker who can get the ball so high, that if it drops inside the 5, my coverage team is already crossing the 20. If they do their job right from there, they should be able pin the returner short of the 20.

He doesn't even have to drop it inside the 5..... 5 yards into the endzone would be fine. But my coverage team has to be at the 20, or at the very least crossing the 25 when it's fielded. I want that guy to come out of the endzone, because I want to stop him before the 20.

I want him to risk fumbling the ball.

If our Special Teams were as bad as they were last year, absolutely I want to kick it out the back of the endzone every time.
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That would indeed be an "ideal" combination of kicker and coverage team. I would then have to point out that the boomer, high hanging kicker you speak of is probably the same type of kicker that would have the comparable power to at will when needed kick the ball with less height, but greater distance (ala out of the EZ).
 
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