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Old 07-11-2013   #41
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
This is where we differ, I want a HC that has the abilty to win a Lombardi. If a HC hasn't won a SB in a decade, when the avg HC lifespan is 4-5 yrs odds of that HC ever winning a SB are slim. It would be time to change HC. IMHO

Gary is considered to be a QB guru, the QB's has won championships with are Montana/Young and Elway. Walsh developed Montana, Walsh/Shanahan developed Young and Shanahan developed Elway. In todays game Shanny is in the procees of Developing RG3. Who has Gary developed?

BTW, the Bum vs Landry/Noll etc, how many championships did Bum win? Blasphemy? LOL

I get what you are saying, you like a comfort factor in your HC's. I'm a risk taker who's only goal is to win and by win I mean win it all. These are 2 distinctively different personality types. BoB appears to have your type of personality and that is all that really matters.

I want you to know that I respect your position on this subject, but after almost a decade you should know what you've got in Gary and it's almost time to move on. He's got 2 more yrs to get it done or he's gone if I were BoB, depending on how he does this yr.
Okay, I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from SteelB. I'm more in the camp of TPN because I like stability. In my experience stability bears more consistent fruit than impatience.

And if winning the Lombardi is your primary pass/fail criteria then Cowher is a Fail since it took him 15 years to finally win one.
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Old 07-11-2013   #42
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
This is where we differ, I want a HC that has the abilty to win a Lombardi. If a HC hasn't won a SB in a decade, when the avg HC lifespan is 4-5 yrs odds of that HC ever winning a SB are slim. It would be time to change HC. IMHO

Gary is considered to be a QB guru, the QB's has won championships with are Montana/Young and Elway. Walsh developed Montana, Walsh/Shanahan developed Young and Shanahan developed Elway. In todays game Shanny is in the procees of Developing RG3. Who has Gary developed?

BTW, the Bum vs Landry/Noll etc, how many championships did Bum win? Blasphemy? LOL

I get what you are saying, you like a comfort factor in your HC's. I'm a risk taker who's only goal is to win and by win I mean win it all. These are 2 distinctively different personality types. BoB appears to have your type of personality and that is all that really matters.

I want you to know that I respect your position on this subject, but after almost a decade you should know what you've got in Gary and it's almost time to move on. He's got 2 more yrs to get it done or he's gone if I were BoB, depending on how he does this yr.
We BOTH have the same goal. We both believe what we believe because we think it's the best and quickest way to start winning SBs. I'm not backing Kubiak because of a comfort factor, I'm backing him because I think he gives us the best chance to win a lot of SBs.

This is where we're always going to differ. Most of the owners in this league are risk-takers like you and almost all of those owners have failed to win a SB because they pull the trigger too quickly.

Bum Phillips never won a SB because he wasn't given enough of a chance. If he'd been able to stay here a few more years, he might have brought one home. But the owner got impatient and canned him. They could be hoisting SB trophies in Cleveland right now but they ditched Belichik too quickly.

And say what you want about Kubiak as a QB guru but he has developed a potent offense. Many times, coordinator gurus are brought in as HCs and then their side of the ball never really develops. Billick, an offensive "genius" from the Greene Minnesota days, goes to Baltimore and never really can get the offense in gear. Gruden goes to Tampa Bay and never does get the offense going like he had it in Oakland. Dungy never developed a defense in Indy anywhere close to what he had in Tampa Bay. And those guys WON SBs.

I think we have a good chance of winning a SB with this team and with this coaching staff and I know that you don't and never have.
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Old 07-11-2013   #43
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Gary is considered to be a QB guru, the QB's has won championships with are Montana/Young and Elway. Walsh developed Montana, Walsh/Shanahan developed Young and Shanahan developed Elway. In todays game Shanny is in the procees of Developing RG3. Who has Gary developed?
I am no Kubiak apologist, as most of the Kool-Aid drinkers will tell you. I've been a critic of his since the second 6-10 season. However, I always bring this up when someone says what you've said here. It never seems to sink it, but it's no less true.

Kubiak is known as a QB guru because of what he's accomplished with QBs. Yes, Steve Young was a great QB before Kubiak came along. But Young had his best season ever under Kubiak's tutelage, won his only Super Bowl, and posted a record QB rating that stood for a while. Yes, Elway was a great QB before Kubiak came along, and went to the Super Bowl a few times. But he had his best years under Kubiak and won two Super Bowls. Then you have the crappy QBs that played under Kubiak and had their best years - Jake Plummer and Brian Griese. Jake Plummer played way over his head under Kubiak and so did Griese. Hell, Griese was even named to the Pro Bowl under Kubiak. Even the disaster that was David Carr was reigned in and improved under Kubiak, and that was a pretty hopeless project by the time Kubiak got hold of him.

I do think that as a result, Kubiak thinks he can win with lesser QBs now. I'd rather see a supremely talented QB paired with Kubiak, but I cannot deny the man his due.
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Old 07-11-2013   #44
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”



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Old 07-11-2013   #45
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

They were beat down 3 times last yr and every time that happened,the other team stopped the run 1st.Once they sztopped the run,it took away playaction and took them off schedule and the team couldn't respond.If they were not a run 1st team,getting their run game stopped wouldn't mean much. I hate to do this,but schaubs inability to make downfield throws inside the pocket without playaction restricts them. In those 3 beadowns,that's what happen and it will continue to happen until martin,posey,hopkins,or jean can show they can beat coverage badly. If its close,schaub will not throw guys open.
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Old 07-11-2013   #46
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
If a HC hasn't won a SB in a decade, when the avg HC lifespan is 4-5 yrs odds of that HC ever winning a SB are slim. It would be time to change HC. IMHO
Gary has 3 more seasons then. Let's see what happens.

Say, how long did it take Cowher to win his Super Bowl?
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Old 07-11-2013   #47
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Okay, I'm beginning to understand where you're coming from SteelB. I'm more in the camp of TPN because I like stability. In my experience stability bears more consistent fruit than impatience.

And if winning the Lombardi is your primary pass/fail criteria then Cowher is a Fail since it took him 15 years to finally win one.
Impatience? going on 8 yrs?

Gary is probably the 2nd most tenured HC in the NFL, behind Coughlin and Coughlin was in jeopardy of being fired 2 yrs after winning a SB.

Texans fans have been quite patient. IMHO

Lets see how this yr plays out. I'm ready for some football.
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Old 07-12-2013   #48
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Impatience? going on 8 yrs?

Gary is probably the 2nd most tenured HC in the NFL, behind Coughlin and Coughlin was in jeopardy of being fired 2 yrs after winning a SB.

Texans fans have been quite patient. IMHO

Lets see how this yr plays out. I'm ready for some football.
You and I both steelb. Come on July 26th. I've got the football jones really bad!
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Old 07-13-2013   #49
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
They were beat down 3 times last yr and every time that happened,the other team stopped the run 1st.Once they sztopped the run,it took away playaction and took them off schedule and the team couldn't respond.If they were not a run 1st team,getting their run game stopped wouldn't mean much. I hate to do this,but schaubs inability to make downfield throws inside the pocket without playaction restricts them. In those 3 beadowns,that's what happen and it will continue to happen until martin,posey,hopkins,or jean can show they can beat coverage badly. If its close,schaub will not throw guys open.
I believe you are referring to the losses against the Packers and the Patriots. Those losses clearly demonstrate a trend of offensive failures to get things started early against teams that have premier QBs who get hot early. From my perspective, that issue has very little to do with Schaub or the running game, but Kubiak's generally unimaginative and predictable play calling.

Repeatedly, I see that the Texans offense incapable of scoring TDs when it matters the most, such as early in the game before things get out of hand, or closing out a tough game against a top tier team. I lay this on Kubiak's coaching of the offense.

Statistics can be highly deceptive and completely misleading. Simply put, to win big football games at any level, scoring TDs when your opponent can least afford giving up those points is the key to success. I am not sure how to capture that in a statistic. But, that means the offense is successful at the most critical moments during the game.

I do not have the time to break all this down with an in dept analysis, but from my view point, meaning, from just watching of Texans games live, and that is it, the Texans offense struggles mightily when success is needed the most. The three games you mention clearly demonstrate that.

Having said all that, I don't know if McNair should get rid of Kubiak because he has a lot of strengths. I am probably going to surprise a lot people with this statement, but if Kubiak innovates his offensive coaching style and becomes more robust in his play calling, the Texans have the roster to win the Super Bowl.

Hopefully in McNair's review of Kubiak, he discusses that with Kubiak. Bottom line, the Houston Texans are very close to a championship.
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Old 07-14-2013   #50
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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I believe you are referring to the losses against the Packers and the Patriots. Those losses clearly demonstrate a trend of offensive failures to get things started early against teams that have premier QBs who get hot early. From my perspective, that issue has very little to do with Schaub or the running game, but Kubiak's generally unimaginative and predictable play calling.
I think I agree with most of what you said in the first paragraph, but think about it in a different way. The Packers & Patriots are highly efficient scoring teams. We're not. I would bet they score more per possession than just about any other team. We score a lot of points too, but we go about it a different way. Teams like that & the Peyton Manning led Colts pressure other teams to score on every possession, because you "know" if you don't, they will.

They pretty much make you one dimensional before the game even starts. Other teams will try to slow the game down, but it usually ends up in a shooting match that they win 8 out of 10 times. Those are the step on your neck teams, because they don't have a defense that can "make up" for not scoring on offense.

We got behind against those teams & couldn't slow the game down enough to get the win. & you don't want to give them extra possessions. Which we did.

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Repeatedly, I see that the Texans offense incapable of scoring TDs when it matters the most, such as early in the game before things get out of hand, or closing out a tough game against a top tier team. I lay this on Kubiak's coaching of the offense.
But we won 12 games last year. One of those after we gave up a safety & trailed for a little more than a quarter. That was against the Peyton Manning Broncos... & we stomped a hole in their butts. Against Detroit & Jacksonville, trailing most of the game, we came from behind & won.

So I wouldn't say it's unimaginative on Kubiak's part. We just ran up against teams that played/coached better than we did that day. It happens. It happened to the Patriots & the Packers 4 times in 2012, same as us. That's football.
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Old 07-14-2013   #51
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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but Kubiak's generally unimaginative and predictable play calling.
I see unimaginative thrown around. Would some of the folks who espouse this please be more specific? Spare everyone the 3rd and long draw play. Other than that, what is unimaginative about either his plays or play calling?

Frankly on predictable I just think people are FOS. There are certain fans for every team who claim they can predict the plays. Saying to yourself "he is going to run" isn't something pat yourself on the back about when it is 2nd and 2. There are about 10 plays a game where conventional football wisdom (which doesn't always dictate one outcome) gets pushed aside. I want to see the "predictable play call" squad get on line and call these predicable plays before they happen on game day.

PS - in case you haven't been watching or listening, the entire design of Kubiak's offense is to look unimaginative and predictable and then dare you to stop it or it will pull off a crud load of plays out of the same formation. Name me another unimaginative and predictable offense where slow white guys are running around wide open in back fields?
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Old 07-14-2013   #52
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

I guess when I am looking at the idea of a run first I'm not just looking at play calling ratio. This team looks to establish the running game early and often. The passing game under Gary is highly dependent on the run.

I think a lot of the vanilla accusations come from most mismatches on this offense are based on athletes creating them physically as more formation based.

I'd really like to see this offense with a elite QB running it. It's probably be devastating to deal with from a defensive standpoint.
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Old 07-14-2013   #53
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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I guess when I am looking at the idea of a run first I'm not just looking at play calling ratio. This team looks to establish the running game early and often. The passing game under Gary is highly dependent on the run.
Before Rick Dennison showed up, Gary would abandon the run quicker than most of us here cared for. It was listed as one of his flaws back in the day.
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Old 07-14-2013   #54
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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I see unimaginative thrown around. Would some of the folks who espouse this please be more specific? Spare everyone the 3rd and long draw play. Other than that, what is unimaginative about either his plays or play calling?

Frankly on predictable I just think people are FOS. There are certain fans for every team who claim they can predict the plays. Saying to yourself "he is going to run" isn't something pat yourself on the back about when it is 2nd and 2. There are about 10 plays a game where conventional football wisdom (which doesn't always dictate one outcome) gets pushed aside. I want to see the "predictable play call" squad get on line and call these predicable plays before they happen on game day.

PS - in case you haven't been watching or listening, the entire design of Kubiak's offense is to look unimaginative and predictable and then dare you to stop it or it will pull off a crud load of plays out of the same formation. Name me another unimaginative and predictable offense where slow white guys are running around wide open in back fields?
When the Texans get in third and long, and sometimes even in second long, the screen and draw plays seem to be the norm. Very rarely in these situations do I see the Texans offense go aggressively for the yards to move the chains. This is just what I see while watching them live. I love the Texans and talking to you guys about this stuff, but I am occupied with other stuff to get down into the dirty details.

Like I said, from my perspective, the Texans' offense struggles repeatedly when it matters the most. I don't think any statistic is going to represent that, just as calling run and pass plays 50/50 over the course of a game will ensure victory.

The Texans have proven they can win football games and make it to the playoffs. But, if they want get past the divisional round, their improvements must be more innovative and not tracked statistically, except, of course, for W's and the Lombardi Trophy.
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Old 07-14-2013   #55
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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We just ran up against teams that played/coached better than we did that day. It happens. It happened to the Patriots & the Packers 4 times in 2012, same as us. That's football.
The difference between the Texans and the Patriots/Packers, those teams have won a Super Bowl and are repeatedly serious contenders deep into the playoffs.

Why is that? Like you said, some of it is coaching. Kubiak has some improvements to make in order for the Texans to win a championship, and it has nothing to do with statistics or a discussion of the Texans being a run first team or not.
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Old 07-14-2013   #56
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Spare everyone the 3rd and long draw play. Other than that, what is unimaginative about either his plays or play calling?
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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
When the Texans get in third and long, and sometimes even in second long, the screen and draw plays seem to be the norm. Very rarely in these situations do I see the Texans offense go aggressively for the yards to move the chains.
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Old 07-14-2013   #57
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
The difference between the Texans and the Patriots/Packers, those teams have won a Super Bowl and are repeatedly serious contenders deep into the playoffs.

Why is that?
The Packers didn't get any farther than we did in 2012. The Patriots got one game closer.

If we had 30 some years of history like they do, then we can talk about not going deep into the play offs or how many Super Bowls they have. But the point is, those "bad ass" teams lost 4 games, same as us. No one is calling them unimaginative, or predictable. They had off days, period.
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Old 07-14-2013   #58
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
The Packers didn't get any farther than we did in 2012. The Patriots got one game closer.

If we had 30 some years of history like they do, then we can talk about not going deep into the play offs or how many Super Bowls they have. But the point is, those "bad ass" teams lost 4 games, same as us. No one is calling them unimaginative, or predictable. They had off days, period.
Agreed, but those teams have proven they can win the big game to get to the Super Bowl and win it in recent history. The Texans haven't. That is my point.

Once Kubiak gets to or wins a Super Bowl, the day off argument will hold some water in comparing the Texans 12 win season to the Packers and the Patriots.
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Old 07-14-2013   #59
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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It is interesting that in my original post, I did not mention the draw or screen pass, and infantrycak threw it out there in his response. I didn't go there, he did.

My point is that the when the Texans offense gets in a long situation, Kubiak seems to resign himself in his play calling that ends up with a punt on fourth down. Maybe, I should have just said that in my original post?
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Old 07-14-2013   #60
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Default Re: Texans_Chick: Texans are not a “run first team”

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Originally Posted by hollywood_texan View Post
It is interesting that in my original post, I did not mention the draw or screen pass, and infantrycak threw it out there in his response. I didn't go there, he did.

My point is that the when the Texans offense gets in a long situation, Kubiak seems to resign himself in his play calling that ends up with a punt on fourth down. Maybe, I should have just said that in my original post?
In most instances, I'm OK with that. If we've got a lead or if it's close, I'm fine with that. It's called trusting your defense. There was a time when we didn't have the luxury of doing that.

And I've seen lots of screen passes and draws to Arian on 3rd and long turn into first downs... just not as many last year as in previous years.
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