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Old 06-27-2013   #81
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by LZ View Post
Actually, I think you were the one who was pretty quick to come to the conclusion on the TE on that play. My point was to say that different teams coach it different ways. With that said, there are some basic truths in the zone. I think we are getting caught up in too many technical aspects. I know a thing or two about oline play and I had my ass handed to me with a big dose of humble pie after watching tape with my dad a couple of years ago. I would prefer to stay away from too many technique issues as there are very few on this board who are qualified to get into technique talk. I can talk basic technique, but I'm not a coach so I'm not going to wonder too far into that area. I trust Rey to do that though.

There are some basics that most teams follow though and they can literally change on the fly depending on who they have to block, the shade of the defender and how best to release linemen to the 2nd level. That's all I'm really commenting on here.
Lance, I'm not quick to jump to conclusion on anything; that is the way I always am.

I had gone through/reviewed several coaching manuals/tips on the web and rewatched a few videos before I made that call.

I think it is you that was quick to come to a few conclusions when you made the video that breaks down that particular play.

All the things that you touched in the last few posts were already addressed by myself in previous posts, if only you would read them.

Tell you what, I just pulled up that Jaguars game in week 11.
I found 3 similar plays from the same formation against the same front.
In the first quarter, at 9:48 and 6:35
In the second quarter, at 10:27

The TE did exactly what I've been saying that he should; that is to work in tandem with the OT, stay with the block longer and stronger instead of barely laying a hand on the SDE like OD did on that particular play.

Also, I noticed that both D. Brown or Newton have the same first step.
So my next conclusion is that the Texans taught their OTs that technique, and that Newton did not have a bad first step in the play being discussed.
(This is something I said I wasn't sure of; that the Texans may have a different way of doing things from other teams/coaches.)
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Old 06-27-2013   #82
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Lance, I'm not quick to jump to conclusion on anything; that is the way I always am.

I had gone through/reviewed several coaching manuals/tips on the web and rewatched a few videos before I made that call.

I think it is you that was quick to come to a few conclusions when you made the video that breaks down that particular play.

All the things that you touched in the last few posts were already addressed by myself in previous posts, if only you would read them.

Tell you what, I just pulled up that Jaguars game in week 11.
I found 3 similar plays from the same formation against the same front.
In the first quarter, at 9:48 and 6:35
In the second quarter, at 10:27

The TE did exactly what I've been saying that he should; that is to work in tandem with the OT, stay with the block longer and stronger instead of barely laying a hand on the SDE like OD did on that particular play.

Also, I noticed that both D. Brown or Newton have the same first step.
So my next conclusion is that the Texans taught their OTs that technique, and that Newton did not have a bad first step in the play being discussed.
(This is something I said I wasn't sure of; that the Texans may have a different way of doing things from other teams/coaches.)
I'm not going to keep arguing the point. The TE was not a big part of the problem on this play. Newton handled the play poorly and used improper footwork. I don't know what else to say. You can access all the manuals and instructional tapes you want, but I'm telling you what I've learned from studying directly under and NFL offensive line coach and from speaking to him about this particular play before I posted it. Why we are continuing to argue about what your videos are telling you is beyond me. It was a poorly executed play across the board. Seems like this is just turning into arguing for arguments sake now.
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Old 06-27-2013   #83
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I'm not going to keep arguing the point. The TE was not a big part of the problem on this play. Newton handled the play poorly and used improper footwork. I don't know what else to say. You can access all the manuals and instructional tapes you want, but I'm telling you what I've learned from studying directly under and NFL offensive line coach and from speaking to him about this particular play before I posted it. Why we are continuing to argue about what your videos are telling you is beyond me. It was a poorly executed play across the board. Seems like this is just turning into arguing for arguments sake now.
Heh, have to agree with you. As someone who worked with youth and talking to various individuals involved in the game your point was well received earlier. It not text book nor something that just comes from a manual. Most coaches take what they know or learned from such materials and evolve it to fit their scheme and then they may have to adapt one step further for the personnel involved. Can this guy make this step successfully? How can I change it to fit his footwork and his reaction tendencies?

So thanks for the insight since I know you gained the chance to speak first hand with some personnel. Just gives me more idea to pass onto others since that's what it is all about. I learned in a coaching clinic how so much information, schemes and techniques are simply re-processed and adapted.

Makes one always thankful to get different viewpoints from others so thanks to you and Rey on that. Nice article as well.
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Old 06-27-2013   #84
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I'm not going to keep arguing the point. The TE was not a big part of the problem on this play. Newton handled the play poorly and used improper footwork. I don't know what else to say. You can access all the manuals and instructional tapes you want, but I'm telling you what I've learned from studying directly under and NFL offensive line coach and from speaking to him about this particular play before I posted it. Why we are continuing to argue about what your videos are telling you is beyond me. It was a poorly executed play across the board. Seems like this is just turning into arguing for arguments sake now.

I don't know the exact technique the Texans are teaching their OL....What I do know is that Newton did not do a good job on the play. I don't even see how that's debatable.

Short of Kubiak or John Benton coming on here and confirming that I don't think 76 would ever acknowledge that. He feels that he can read manuals and decipher plays...

I just don't bother with the back and forth much anymore. Whatever.
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Old 06-27-2013   #85
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I don't know the exact technique the Texans are teaching their OL....What I do know is that Newton did not do a good job on the play. I don't even see how that's debatable.

Short of Kubiak or John Benton coming on here and confirming that I don't think 76 would ever acknowledge that. He feels that he can read manuals and decipher plays...

I just don't bother with the back and forth much anymore. Whatever.
I understand what you're saying, I see the issue with Newton's step, but I still find it hard to believe Newton was supposed to make that block when he had little contact with the DE.

Right next to Newton you see Ben Jones & Myers working on a player lined up on Jones' outside.... Myers has no chance of getting to that outside shoulder. Maybe because Jones did such a bad job, but he engages the DT much more than the TE engages the DE.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I've yet to find (& I have been looking) an example where the TE gives the RT enough time to make that block with minimum contact.

All that to say, 76Texans' explanation is much easier to believe to a layman such as me if I'm going to "study" it. For your & LZ's explanation, I have to hit the "because he said so" button & mine's been broke for a while.
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Old 06-27-2013   #86
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Those are great resources and I have learned elements of zone blocking from my dad who had studied many oline coaches over the years including Alex Gibbs obviously, but I've also learned about how the Texans run their scheme from conversations with J. Benton and E. Winston.

I'll just say this. Always remember that the rules of engagement for offensive linemen are fluid and can change from play to play depending on the front they are seeing, the MIKE LB designation and how that team is coached to attack elements of the defense.

Not all teams are coached to do the same things against similar fronts. There are times that a team will execute a play differently than another offensive line based on what the line coach has designated even in a given week.

As for Gibbs, his idea of the outside zone is to run the track tighter to the LOS for the running back and to look for cutback lanes. What the Texans found is that teams began to really concentrate on the cutback lanes since they didn't respect the run around the corner from any of the Texans RBs. Once Foster got there and once Dennison had a little more say, the Texans started to widen out the track of the outside zone just a little bit and concentrate more on getting around the edge with the RB so that teams would have to flow harder.
Lance, read your own post.

You, yourself, said that the rule of engagement can change on any given play.

That means, neither you or I, or anybody else outside of those players and the coaching staff, can say what OD or Newton were supposed to do on that play.

On the other hand, you insist that you know what the two players were supposed to do.

Isn't that a contradiction?
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Old 06-27-2013   #87
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I understand what you're saying, I see the issue with Newton's step, but I still find it hard to believe Newton was supposed to make that block when he had little contact with the DE.
What angle are you looking at?

Go to the Endzone view and pause the video at 3:17. The TE has two hands on the DE and has him completely hooked. If that to you is little contact then I don't know what to tell you. Short of holding the DE there until Newton gets his isht together, I don't know what else you want him to do.

Quote:
Right next to Newton you see Ben Jones & Myers working on a player lined up on Jones' outside.... Myers has no chance of getting to that outside shoulder. Maybe because Jones did such a bad job, but he engages the DT much more than the TE engages the DE.
TK stop being ridiculous. That DT was in a 3 tech on the outside of Jones shoulder. Hell, you might even be able to call it a 4 tech because he's over Newton a little bitThe distance isn't even close to being the same. The only way Meyers is making that block is if the DT stunts inside. Then Jones would have passed him off.

The DE is head up on the TE. It's not even close to being the same block.

The reason Jones is so engaged is because He knows Meyers is going to end up going to the LB.

The reason the TE is not as engaged is because Newton is supposed to take over that block and allow him to go up to the TE.

How are you not getting that?

Go to the EZ view and look at the play again. It doesn't look the same because it's not the same block. There's a reason they are doing two different things and it's because of how the defense is lined up.

Newton is taking over, Meyers is taking his steps and then going up to the next level.

The TE is going to pass off the DE and Jones is going to stay on.


Honestly I can't break it down any more than that.
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Old 06-27-2013   #88
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Watching another game now, looking for the same situation.
Miami week 1

2:31 first qtr
7:53 third qtr

TE stayed on the block well.
So far in two games, I have yet to see anything different in the rules of engagement.
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Old 06-27-2013   #89
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Yet another game vs Jags week 2

10:42 1st qtr
2:52 1st qtr
8:32 2nd qtr
7:59 2nd qtr
4:24 4th qtr (DE lined up very wide. OT helped TE before climbing)
2:53 ;th qtr

Still no exception.
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Old 06-27-2013   #90
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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TK stop being ridiculous.
You need to stop being so offended. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying I'm right. Just saying.

It's a difference of opinion, that's all. If you can't see it from my P.O.V. you should be able to understand why it's not so easy to see it from yours.
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Old 06-27-2013   #91
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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You need to stop being so offended. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not saying I'm right. Just saying.

It's a difference of opinion, that's all. If you can't see it from my P.O.V. you should be able to understand why it's not so easy to see it from yours.
It's not me being offended.

Comparing those two blocks is ridiculous TK. IMO.


Just look at the film. The defenders alignment in relation to the guys blocking them isn't remotely the same.

Maybe I'm just expecting you to see something that you just aren't seeing. I don't know, but to me, looking at that film certain things are apparent. Whether or not you know a lick about football or if you've been in the NFL for 100 years...I would think you could look at the tape and see basic things like alignment...

Now whether you know what that alignment likely means in regards to the play is another thing.

But come one...To say that Ben Jones blocked his man more than the TE blocked his?

I'll just back out of this conversation because it's not really going anywhere....It's fine...We have a differing opinion on this...Not a big deal.
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Old 06-27-2013   #92
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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That DT was in a 3 tech on the outside of Jones shoulder. Hell, you might even be able to call it a 4 tech because he's over Newton a little bitThe distance isn't even close to being the same. The only way Meyers is making that block is if the DT stunts inside. Then Jones would have passed him off.
I know it's difficult having this kind of conversation on the internet... like this.

But when I say it's the same block, it's because LZ said this

Quote:
Originally Posted by LZ View Post
As for Ben Jones and C. Myers, you have this one wrong. This is a handoff block where Jones is to get across the face of the 3-tech and "hand him to Myers. From that point, it is Jones' responsibility to work up to the MIKE. Obviously, Alualu blew that play up so Myers was just trying to get a piece of the MIKE but it is highly unlikely that the MIKE was his responsibility on that play.
Which is what we're saying the TE & Newton were supposed to be doing.
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Old 06-27-2013   #93
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Tell you what, I just pulled up that Jaguars game in week 11.
I found 3 similar plays from the same formation against the same front.
In the first quarter, at 9:48 and 6:35
In the second quarter, at 10:27

The TE did exactly what I've been saying that he should; that is to work in tandem with the OT, stay with the block longer and stronger instead of barely laying a hand on the SDE like OD did on that particular play.

Also, I noticed that both D. Brown or Newton have the same first step.
So my next conclusion is that the Texans taught their OTs that technique, and that Newton did not have a bad first step in the play being discussed.
(This is something I said I wasn't sure of; that the Texans may have a different way of doing things from other teams/coaches.)
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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Watching another game now, looking for the same situation.
Miami week 1

2:31 first qtr
7:53 third qtr

TE stayed on the block well.
So far in two games, I have yet to see anything different in the rules of engagement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Yet another game vs Jags week 2

10:42 1st qtr
2:52 1st qtr
8:32 2nd qtr
7:59 2nd qtr
4:24 4th qtr (DE lined up very wide. OT helped TE before climbing)
2:53 ;th qtr

Still no exception.
The thing that I notice is that the OT (whether it's Newton or D. Brown) never took a bucket step. They all did exactly the same thing Newton was doing in that particular play.
(So, it looks like that is what the Texans teach it differently than other teams.)

The only difference is that OD left the combo after just a hand check on the SDE whereas in all of the other plays mentioned above the TE actually engaged the SDE before releasing to the second level.

Furthermore, the Texans had an extra blocker in the FB Casey in the play being discussed. You don't need two-on-one on the second level as much as at the LOS, where the battle needs to be won.
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Old 06-28-2013   #94
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

In the week 3 game vs the Broncos, the Texans faced a 3-4 defense, so there wasn't any scenario that has enough similarity.

In the next game against the Titans, I found these:

12:57 First quarter
Brown did not take a bucket step with his playside foot.
He simply turned his left toe in that direction and started his first step with the right foot.
The DE was a hair inside the TE (Graham), yet Graham stayed with the combo block the whole way through.

On the next play, the DE lined up outside Graham, but attack to the inside.
Both Newton and Graham stayed with the combo block to ride him out of the way before Newton released to the second level.

6:16 first quarter
OD went into motion and ended up on the right side, with the DE slightly inside him in an inside-slant position (but he attacked the outside.)
OD stayed with the combo block long and strong before releasing.
Newton's first step is consistent with what I described about D. Brown earlier.

5:38 second quarter
With the DE head up on the TE, same thing repeats itself.
It looks like the Texans teach the OT to reduce the bucket step to a minimum (as I've been describing.)

10:19 fourth qtr
6:29 fourth qtr
5:54 fourth qtr

I've watched every run plays and noted the similar situations in four games (not counting the Broncos game), and there's still no exception.

Do I believe in what I've been observing?
You bet I do!
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Old 06-28-2013   #95
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

Just want to pop in and say that I'm learning a lot reading this thread.

Now I just wish we could get Josh Innes in here to hear what he thinks about the Texans o-line scheme.
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Old 07-01-2013   #96
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

I've been re-watching more games, including the first five five
from 2011.

I try to study Winston's technique as well as Harris and Brown's.

It certainly is true what Alex Gibbs said in one of his coaching clinic (for college coaches) that you have to look to do something new or different each year to stay ahead of the competition.

What I observe from the TE in this instance (a similar situation to the play in discussion) remains constant.

The approach of the uncovered OT wasn't the same from 2011 to 2012.

I will get to it later.
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Old 07-01-2013   #97
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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I think we are getting caught up in too many technical aspects. I know a thing or two about oline play and I had my ass handed to me with a big dose of humble pie after watching tape with my dad a couple of years ago. I would prefer to stay away from too many technique issues as there are very few on this board who are qualified to get into technique talk. I can talk basic technique, but I'm not a coach so I'm not going to wonder too far into that area.
Let this be an abject lesson to those breaking down film at home - Without input from the coaches, your guess may not be as accurate as you think.
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Old 07-01-2013   #98
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Let this be an abject lesson to those breaking down film at home - Without input from the coaches, your guess may not be as accurate as you think.
So we shouldn't criticize Jacoby Jones, Shilo Keo, Chris Brown, Matt Schaub?

One way or another, we're going to watch our team & we're going to comment on how they play. Most likely without input from the coaches.

You can go back & watch that video LZ posted. Then come & read his comments regarding that video.... there are discrepancies in what he is saying here & what he's saying on the video. LZ doesn't have anymore input from the coaches than we do.
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Old 07-01-2013   #99
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
So we shouldn't criticize Jacoby Jones, Shilo Keo, Chris Brown, Matt Schaub?

One way or another, we're going to watch our team & we're going to comment on how they play. Most likely without input from the coaches.

You can go back & watch that video LZ posted. Then come & read his comments regarding that video.... there are discrepancies in what he is saying here & what he's saying on the video. LZ doesn't have anymore input from the coaches than we do.
Way to extrapolate far more from what I said than what's there.

Sure, you can criticize players, we all do, myself definitely included. When it regards obvious scheme / assignments though, it may be useless without a coach telling you what that player was SUPPOSED to be doing on that play.

Between LZ and his dad, they have press / coaching contacts throughout the league. You really think he has zero idea what the coaching staff may / may not think about a player?

My sun doesn't set by LZ's evaluation of anything. I don't discount it out of hand, either.
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Old 07-01-2013   #100
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Default Re: Zierlein Breaks Down Improvement Needed For Run Game

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
LZ doesn't have anymore input from the coaches than we do.
By virtue of having a media pass, this is a false statement. Anna Meagan-Raley (or whatever her name was) had more input from the coaches than we did while she worked for the chronicle.
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