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View Poll Results: Should the Washington Redskins change their name?
Yes 32 28.07%
No 82 71.93%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-24-2014   #281
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
I appreciate the extremely detailed reply
no problem

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
and I acknowledge your points, and if I were so inclined I could argue them point by point.
I'm sure you could. But not all arguments are created equally. I know we'll differ on the legitimation of the self-reference as some sort of justifiable cause - and that's fine. I don't see any substantial explanation for it, but it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

That's why I foreground my point with the notes about Goddard that didn't make it into your response but are, I feel, pretty relevant to the discussion. And if you're going to cite something as support, then presenting it fairly and more completely - i.e. more than just a secondary source that has its own thesis to pursue - is better.

If you want to cite Goddard, then link to Goddard and include his points. After all, you seemed like you wanted to present it in a sort of "decide for yourself" sort of way. That's hard to do when it's presented pretty one-sidedly. Present it all - it's possible to still fall on your side of the argument, but it should at least be presented more even-handedly, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
But as I said in the message above, I feel this is a waste of not only my time,
That's fine. I just understood 7 posts within a day or so, totaling nearly 2000 words and a handful of links (which I'm presuming you took time to read) suggested to me that it was more than just a waste of your time.

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
but certainly the time of our nation when it appears that the Native Americans themselves for the the most part are not offended,
Are you basing this on the SI study? If so, you should know that there were inherent methodological problems with the quantitative elicitation of that data which compounds the problems of the conclusions drawn.

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
So until there comes a time when the Native Americans can organize a movement that is represented by actual Native Americans and not liberal activists
but see, this is part of the problem - for years, marginalization of such groups/communities has made it so that autonomic agency is somewhat problematic. Without getting into the liberal/conservative end of things, I'll just say that our national history is full of instances where small, oppressed, marginalized groups have primarily found or effected change through the intercession of a dominant group. I mean, you could look at things as broadly as Civil Rights or suffrage. Or, you could look at things as specific or relatively small as things in my fields. The support and education of students with disabilities or mental health issues that can inhibit learning. Or the plight of incarcerated youth across the country.

If it seemed that Native Americans were wholly and completely disinterested, then you might be approaching a point. I'm still not sure you'd get there because this is about following a reasonable law in a way that's consistent with previous decisions - and it appears to be.
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who feel the need to right the wrongs of the world one trivial issue at a time,
This might be trivial to you. But there are lots of people that it is not trivial to. Among the groups I work with up here have included native populations - because the representation of indigenous youth in the penal system up here is far out of line with general population. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I can say that there are natives who do not see this as trivial. They don't like the word. They don't use the word. And they really, really do not think it's a word that should be condoned or used by the outside majority as an acceptable reference.

Now, is this name of an NFL team going to impact all sorts of problems with the treatment of them? Or the problems they wrestle with internally?

Of course not. I haven't seen a single person advocate that. And I think it would be pollyannishly naive to think it would. But I will say that a symbolic gesture of rejection for something like this sends a signal from the eurocentric majority decision makers (in the US and Canada) that these sorts of things are not tolerated and that society rejects language considered derogatory and racial.

What comes from that is increasing trust. There's a lot of mistrust up here of white people in some of the native areas. Some of the law enforcement have a really tough time and it's taken a lot of time and trust and care to find inroads.

You know what makes that tougher? Institutionalized racial slurs that are accepted.

So nobody believes it's the only step, a one-stop panacea for writing all the wrongs. But it is a step.

ANd while I think it's foolish for someone to overstate the impact it would have, I think it's also foolish to understate - dismiss it as "trivial" or act like it would have no meaning whatsoever.

The truth is, its impact would probably fall somewhere between those two poles.

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
What Caucasians think is irrelevant
I think it's absolutely relevant. Just like what every other person - no matter their ethnicity - think. It's especially important for the normative majority to be conscious of the way they think and talk and what that might signify to minority groups if we truly believe in things like tolerance and acceptance and plurality.

Like I referenced above, there are lots of historical issues - great and small - that were changed for the better because people outside of the most affected group were involved and interested.

I actually think that's a very key ingredient as to why our country works and it's one of the things I am most proud of in being American (risking the cliche, I know)

Through work, I've had the opportunity and privilege to work with and learn from some of very marginalized and vulnerable groups and in order for improvements to be made in these areas, and those experiences have only cemented, for me, the reality that needed change only happens when there is mobilization by groups that have more power and influence than the marginalized groups.

The changes in youth penal institutions aren't carried out by the kids themselves. Rather, it's the staff, administration, local, and state governments that make the change - and these groups aren't made up of lower class kids. Most of them are middle-upper class men.

anyway, I'm sure I've bored everyone enough by now...
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Old 06-24-2014   #282
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

So, what's happened in the last 10 years? Have the Washington Redskins and RG3 pissed off the populace or what?

Annenberg Survey 2004 - Poll with margin of error +/- 2% points. Only states left out were Alaska and Hawaii where they don't poll. Link

The question?
Quote:
“The professional football team in Washington calls itself the Washington Redskins. As a Native American, do you find that name offensive or doesn’t it bother you?”
The response? 90% found it acceptable.

Quote:
Eight percent of men and 9 percent of women said the name was offensive, while 90 percent of each sex said it did not bother them. Ten percent of Indians under 45 found the name offensive, compared to 8 percent of those 45 and older.
The liberal angle?
Quote:
Thirteen percent of Indians with college degrees or more education said “Redskins” was offensive, compared to 9 percent of those with some college and 6 percent of those with a high school education or less. Fourteen percent of Indians who called themselves politically liberal said the name was offensive, compared to 9 percent of moderates and 6 percent of conservatives.
Draw your own conclusions from the data.
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Old 06-24-2014   #283
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
So, what's happened in the last 10 years? Have the Washington Redskins and RG3 pissed off the populace or what?
Quantitatively, that's actually not an irrelevant question and it is, in fact, one of the issues with that survey.

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Draw your own conclusions from the data.
People have. But it's not without problems. Quantitative data from phone surveys actually need to undergo a pretty rigorous standards review/evaluation before anything can be reasonably asserted or generalized.

We run into that problem at work not infrequently.

I'm not sure that what you posited, dis, was another "angle"

Something like this would probably be better since it invites more discussion on the survey itself:

http://ipclinic.org/2014/02/11/11-re...ffensive-name/

They lead with your comment about "what happens in 10 years" but I actually think their response is pretty weak. They manage to raise more compelling quantitative points to consider in some of the items in the rest of their list, though - things that researchers who use polls and quantitative data in pooling their analyses. It's tedious work and I don't really like doing it as opposed to other things I can do with my research time - but it is valid, necessary work if anyone is going to glean meaning from numbers.

Among the things any researcher would wrestle with, for example, would be the fact that the question was among a whole series of questions issued to 65,000 people. Those people were asked to self-identify as Native American and 768 affirmed. These two considerations need to be acknowledged. And the fact that a decade ago, more than half of Natives on reservations lacked landlines, through which this poll was conducted.

Ultimately, my point is that the data - as with any case - shouldn't be considered the end. Rather, it's a means to it. Like Michael Lewis said - quoting Bill James - in Moneyball:

Quote:
I wonder if we haven't become so numbed by all these numbers that we are no longer capable of truly assimilating any knowledge which might result from them
His goal was understanding something larger, using statistics to get there. But he became disillusioned when his methods were co-opted and the numbers become the end. That, somehow, those numbers were Truth rather than part of the way to understand Truth.

Of course, I'm biased toward the qualitative over the quantitative so I'm inclined to romanticize the former and be more critical of the latter.
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Old 06-24-2014   #284
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Yvette View Post
Here are approximately 3 million Natives for you http://www.changethemascot.org/supporters-of-change/

And your assertion that liberals are behind this is bunk. Natives have been against this name since the very beginning. No one listened back then, no one gave a damn.

I've said everything I have to say.

Yvette, it's much easier to paint the descendants of this country's indigenous population with a broad brush as caracatures. Once someone's culture has been subjegated and damn near eradicated many see them as fair game. I just learned that my maternal great grandmother belonged to THIS nation: http://www.atakapa-ishak.org/

Strangely enough even if I hadn't known that I would still have found the team name as offensive as New Orleans N:883rs, New Jersey J@ps, Cinicinati China-men. Those are extreme examples but there are people who no matter how much you simplify just won't get it.
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Old 06-24-2014   #285
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Dread-Head View Post
Yvette, it's much easier to paint the descendants of this country's indigenous population with a broad brush as caracatures. Once someone's culture has been subjegated and damn near eradicated many see them as fair game. I just learned that my maternal great grandmother belonged to THIS nation: http://www.atakapa-ishak.org/

Strangely enough even if I hadn't known that I would still have found the team name as offensive as New Orleans N:883rs, New Jersey J@ps, Cinicinati China-men. Those are extreme examples but there are people who no matter how much you simplify just won't get it.
I think most of us whose ancestors migrated here more than 200 years ago have NA blood in us. My great grandmother was Cherokee. My great grandfather was a cattle rancher in central Texas during the late 1800's. I wonder how much flak he received for marrying a Cherokee back then.

After my dad passed my step mom found a bunch of photos of my ancestors that I never saw before. Here is some of her family. She is sitting on the front row, second from the right.



This was my great aunt, her sister. Both lived to be over 100 ...

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Old 06-24-2014   #286
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Dread-Head View Post
As the descendant of African slaves, the French bastards who owned them and the Indians from whom they stole the land in the first place...I don't like ANYBODY! I aint too crazy about my DAMN self!
You need to get over that last part. Dread really ain't a bad guy.
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Old 06-24-2014   #287
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Hookem Horns View Post
I think most of us whose ancestors migrated here more than 200 years ago have NA blood in us. My great grandmother was Cherokee. My great grandfather was a cattle rancher in central Texas during the late 1800's. I wonder how much flak he received for marrying a Cherokee back then.

After my dad passed my step mom found a bunch of photos of my ancestors that I never saw before. Here is some of her family. She is sitting on the front row, second from the right.



This was my great aunt, her sister. Both lived to be over 100 ...

They're a good looking group.
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Old 06-24-2014   #288
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Hervoyel View Post
You need to get over that last part. Dread really ain't a bad guy.
I met myself at a party once. We did NOT get along. I was hitting on my girlfriend and just generally giving me a hard time. If I never see me again it'll be too soon as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 06-24-2014   #289
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Do you really perceive fearsome and strong when you see this logo?



It's a freakin' wimpy little bird that my domestic cat kills at least 2-3 a year.
Their name is the Cardinals because their uniform color they originally wore was "cardinal red". It wasn't because they liked a bird. Just saying
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Old 06-24-2014   #290
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
So, what's happened in the last 10 years? Have the Washington Redskins and RG3 pissed off the populace or what?

Annenberg Survey 2004 - Poll with margin of error +/- 2% points. Only states left out were Alaska and Hawaii where they don't poll. Link

The question?

The response? 90% found it acceptable.



The liberal angle?

Draw your own conclusions from the data.
Alaska has the highest percentage of Native Americans of any state in the US.
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Old 06-24-2014   #291
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
Alaska has the highest percentage of Native Americans of any state in the US.
...and is 47th in Population among those states.
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Old 06-24-2014   #292
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
...and is 47th in Population among those states.
.... and they are 6th in population of Native Americans -- three times that of Virginia, Maryland, and DC combined.

Quote:
US Census States Ranked by NA Population With %
1 CALIFORNIA 313,642 0.9%
2 OKLAHOMA 262,581 7.8%
3 ARIZONA 261,168 5.5%
4 NEW MEXICO 165,944 9.5%
5 WASHINGTON 104,819 1.8%
6 ALASKA 101,352 16.4%
.
.
.
.
50 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 1,785 0.3%
http://www.census.gov/population/est.../rank/aiea.txt

That's a higher percentage of Natives than the percentage of Hawaiians with Hawaiian blood. Would you consider it unreasonable to question an Annenburg poll concerning an issue affecting Pacific Islanders if they didn't poll Hawaii?

Last edited by Dan B.; 06-24-2014 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 06-24-2014   #293
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

No one ever surveys me.... And I am 100% SlapAHoe tribe....

Maybe my PIMP hand is too strong....
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Old 06-25-2014   #294
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan B. View Post
.... and they are 6th in population of Native Americans -- three times that of Virginia, Maryland, and DC combined.



http://www.census.gov/population/est.../rank/aiea.txt

That's a higher percentage of Natives than the percentage of Hawaiians with Hawaiian blood. Would you consider it unreasonable to question an Annenburg poll concerning an issue affecting Pacific Islanders if they didn't poll Hawaii?
No, as that's nowhere near a valid comparison.

Annenberg didn't change their methodology just for this poll, it was a known limitation of their process. No hidden agenda, nothing nefarious.

The survey completely missed out on 4.5% of the Native American population, almost all of it in Alaska. The Inuit are far more likely to consider the word Eskimo derogatoary than Redksin.
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Old 06-25-2014   #295
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Pollardized View Post
No one ever surveys me.... And I am 100% SlapAHoe tribe....

Maybe my PIMP hand is too strong....
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Old 06-25-2014   #296
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Vance87 View Post
Their name is the Cardinals because their uniform color they originally wore was "cardinal red". It wasn't because they liked a bird. Just saying
Evidently, you did not grow up in an area that has red cardinals. Many people are surprised each spring by the sight of a cardinal attacking its reflection in a window, car mirror, or shiny bumper. When a male sees its reflection in glass surfaces, it frequently will spend hours fighting the imaginary intruder. Both males and females do this, and most often in spring and early summer when they are obsessed with defending their territory against any intruders. These birds may spend hours fighting these intruders without giving up. A few weeks later, as levels of aggressive hormones subside, these attacks should end although in some cardinals it doesn't. The male cardinal fiercely defends its breeding territory from other males, many times drawing significant blood.
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Old 06-25-2014   #297
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Easiest solution:
I think Snyder should change his football team's name to either something less controversial like....



or to the most derogatory name/mascot I can think of...

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Old 06-25-2014   #298
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
I think Snyder should change his football team's name to either something less controversial like....



or to the most derogatory name/mascot I can think of...

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LGBT Muslim Communists...

I really wonder how many actually exist. Like... 5 in the whole world, maybe? Snyder could get one of them to be the live mascot.
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Old 06-25-2014   #299
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Dread-Head View Post
Yvette, it's much easier to paint the descendants of this country's indigenous population with a broad brush as caracatures. Once someone's culture has been subjegated and damn near eradicated many see them as fair game. I just learned that my maternal great grandmother belonged to THIS nation: http://www.atakapa-ishak.org/

Strangely enough even if I hadn't known that I would still have found the team name as offensive as New Orleans N:883rs, New Jersey J@ps, Cinicinati China-men. Those are extreme examples but there are people who no matter how much you simplify just won't get it.
If someone really wants to challenge themselves by looking beyond their own internal thought processes, consider this scenario:

The NFL grants an expansion team to San Antonio.

The owner/city decides to "honor" Hispanics (as a whole) by calling the team the San Antonio Brownskins.

The logo on the side of the helmet is a sombrero. Like this one:



And every created 'tradition' includes stereotyping ALL Hispanic and Latin American cultures into simple cartoonish caricatures.

I wonder how "honored" all Hispanics would feel with such a thing?

Then we could have the Portland Yellowskins, or the Ft. Worth Blackskins. You know, to "honor" all the racial diversity in this country.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Vance87 View Post
Their name is the Cardinals because their uniform color they originally wore was "cardinal red". It wasn't because they liked a bird. Just saying
That's fine. You just answered Nitrofish's question:

Why would someone name their team after something they saw as weak and inferior to themselves?
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Old 06-25-2014   #300
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post


And every created 'tradition' includes stereotyping ALL Hispanic and Latin American cultures into simple cartoonish caricatures.

I wonder how "honored" all Hispanics would feel with such a thing?





That's fine. You just answered Nitrofish's question:
Why would someone name their team after something they saw as weak and inferior to themselves?
I got a few. Use the top one for: The Mobile Mexicans if Alabama ever gets an NFL team.

Let's take a look at the bottom ones: The Newark Negroes! New Jersey needs more football!

Let's give LA a new team and call the The L.A. Asians!
Waka Waka! I got a MILLION of 'em!

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