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Old 06-23-2013   #1
welsh texan
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Default Briesel & Winston Losses

Ok so I guess we've talked at great length about the actual impact these two losses have had on the field.

I believe in the coaching on OL that this team has to eventually develop the kind of 5 man unity of thought across our offensive line that we had before these two were no-longer Texans (not necessarily this coming season).

A thought I've been having though is what impact this will have when our linemen approach FA in the future.

Do you believe that seeing these two players perform exactly as the Texans would have hoped in our own system, then move in FA and not live up to their price tag, will lead to us having less competition for the services of OL FA's in the future, or will there always be a team or two out their who believe that a good performer in one system will translate to what they are looking for in the position?

As an aside, does the proliferation of the read-option mean that in the coming years we'll have more competition for our prototypical OL check-sheet in FA and the draft when trying to sign guys?

It seems to have been the case over the development of our version of the ZBS that we've been able to pick up one teams trash and turn it into our treasure.

Even Duane Brown, a first round pick, would look to have been a steal where he was taken.
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Old 06-23-2013   #2
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Originally Posted by welsh texan View Post
Ok so I guess we've talked at great length about the actual impact these two losses have had on the field.

I believe in the coaching on OL that this team has to eventually develop the kind of 5 man unity of thought across our offensive line that we had before these two were no-longer Texans (not necessarily this coming season).

A thought I've been having though is what impact this will have when our linemen approach FA in the future.

Do you believe that seeing these two players perform exactly as the Texans would have hoped in our own system, then move in FA and not live up to their price tag, will lead to us having less competition for the services of OL FA's in the future, or will there always be a team or two out their who believe that a good performer in one system will translate to what they are looking for in the position?

As an aside, does the proliferation of the read-option mean that in the coming years we'll have more competition for our prototypical OL check-sheet in FA and the draft when trying to sign guys?

It seems to have been the case over the development of our version of the ZBS that we've been able to pick up one teams trash and turn it into our treasure.

Even Duane Brown, a first round pick, would look to have been a steal where he was taken.
When guard Mike Brisiel signed with the Raiders as a free agent before last season, his arrival was seen as part of the team’s commitment to the zone blocking system favored by new offensive coordinator Greg Knapp.

Knapp lasted just one frustrating year, however, and his zone blocking system has been thrown out along with him. That left Brisiel and his $4.35 million salary in a somewhat precarious position as the team started working their way toward better position under the cap this offseason.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...siel-contract/
********************************
Looks like the ZBS is not for every team, or maybe Knapp didn't have what it took to pull off the conversion in Oakland ? Who knows ?
RE Winston in KC, I think he just got caught up in regime change, though he
is having problems finding employment this year it would seem ? I did see one Chiefs game last year, and Winston can still bloc on rushing plays but based on that game, he also still looks to be a liabilty in pass-blocing.
But you are right about Duane Brown, and so was Alex Gibbs back when he was drafted because everything I remember from that Draft was Brown was totally Gibb's call. I mean using a very late 1st round pick for what is now a ProBowler and All-Pro LT who @ 27 is in his prime was definitely a great pick.
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Old 06-23-2013   #3
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

I remember when Kubiak was first hired and all the Bronco fans said that this ZBS/Denver offense will take 4-5 years to hit full steam. Mainly due to the O-Line and mount of time it takes the player to acclimate and especially to gel as a cohesive unit with the rest of the line. A couple years back we peaked on the O-Line because of this.
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Old 06-23-2013   #4
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Originally Posted by welsh texan View Post

A thought I've been having though is what impact this will have when our linemen approach FA in the future.

Do you believe that seeing these two players perform exactly as the Texans would have hoped in our own system, then move in FA and not live up to their price tag, will lead to us having less competition for the services of OL FA's in the future, or will there always be a team or two out their who believe that a good performer in one system will translate to what they are looking for in the position?
These players did not perform "exactly" as the Texans would have hoped in our system. Had that been the case, we'd have tried to restructure to keep them.

You always over pay in FA. If you're lucky, you'll get a solid player like Briesel who can still start. We've got Wade Smith doing pretty much the same thing for us. Antonio was also overpaid for what he did his first two years here. Danieal Manning, love the guy, but over paid for what he's doing. Jjo, right now it's a wash one great year, one mediocre year, we'll see what we got in 2013.


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As an aside, does the proliferation of the read-option mean that in the coming years we'll have more competition for our prototypical OL check-sheet in FA and the draft when trying to sign guys?
The read-option will be about as successful as the Wild-Cat.
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Old 06-23-2013   #5
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Originally Posted by Tailgate View Post
I remember when Kubiak was first hired and all the Bronco fans said that this ZBS/Denver offense will take 4-5 years to hit full steam. Mainly due to the O-Line and mount of time it takes the player to acclimate and especially to gel as a cohesive unit with the rest of the line. A couple years back we peaked on the O-Line because of this.
Denver had done a pretty good job of developing their OLmen as well. They could lose a guy or two & put a back-up/practice squad player in & not miss a beat.

Up until the last year or two of the Shaniak tenure. Then it seemed they struggled to find the right guys. I would have thought we'd have done a better job developing our OL by now
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Old 06-23-2013   #6
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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The read-option will be about as successful as the Wild-Cat.
I can't agree with that my ol' mucker.

You think in this QB-driven era, playing to the strengths of the best QB's coming out of college by giving them the chance to run the ball whilst still developing their pocket passing is going to be as short-lived as taking the ball away from your QB altogether on a play?
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Old 06-23-2013   #7
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Originally Posted by welsh texan View Post
I can't agree with that my ol' mucker.

You think in this QB-driven era, playing to the strengths of the best QB's coming out of college by giving them the chance to run the ball whilst still developing their pocket passing is going to be as short-lived as taking the ball away from your QB altogether on a play?
Peyton Manning - 7793 attempts and counting. When one of these new guys approaches that we can talk about the transformation of the NFL.

Running QB's (which is different than scrambling QB's) will always be a rarity in the NFL.
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Old 06-23-2013   #8
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

I think what you lose is the unit -- T-G unit, C-G, unit, G-T unit -- when you lose a guy. ZBS is about each unit working together, making the same reads and not duplicating the other's action. Brisiel + Winston > each individually.

I think guys like Duane can play power or ZBS. Other ZBS guys may have to add strength/weight to play in power. Some power guys will never qualify for ZBS.
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Old 06-23-2013   #9
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Originally Posted by welsh texan View Post
I can't agree with that my ol' mucker.

You think in this QB-driven era, playing to the strengths of the best QB's coming out of college by giving them the chance to run the ball whilst still developing their pocket passing is going to be as short-lived as taking the ball away from your QB altogether on a play?
I don't think the league is very good at developing QBs using the read-option. & that's going to be the kicker. The QB has to develop. Taking one read then running hasn't been a good method of developing QBs in the past.

Defenses will figure it out, shut it down & QBs these days don't get a lot of time to develop. As soon as Kaepernick breaks a leg, teams are going to remember why we don't run the option in the NFL.
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Old 06-23-2013   #10
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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I think what you lose is the unit -- T-G unit, C-G, unit, G-T unit -- when you lose a guy. ZBS is about each unit working together, making the same reads and not duplicating the other's action. Brisiel + Winston > each individually.
This. Brisiel was not some great player. Winston was not some great player. They performed their roles well enough within this offense to be starters. Where the Texans screwed up was letting them both go in the same offseason with no effective replacement groomed. As I said at the time, if Caldwell was better than Brisiel, he would have beaten out Brisiel. If Butler was better than Winston, he would have beaten out Winston. It's one thing to bring a guy along when a starter leaves, but having two of them right next to each other leave really hurts.

It's not like Winston or Brisiel were great, but in the end, Caldwell was a bust and Butler was not anything they thought he'd be. Not only did Caldwell not beat out Brisiel, he didn't even hold down the spot once Brisiel left. Not only did Butler not beat out Winston, he didn't even beat out Newton before he got injured. And Newton wasn't all that.

Basically, the Texans had no real replacement plan. IMO, they got arrogant, thinking almost anyone could step in and hold down the fort.
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Old 06-23-2013   #11
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Peyton Manning - 7793 attempts and counting. When one of these new guys approaches that we can talk about the transformation of the NFL.

Running QB's (which is different than scrambling QB's) will always be a rarity in the NFL.
Chris, are you saying Steve Young (scrambler) > than Vince Young (runner)?

And if that is true, Steve McNair the college QB (runner) who learned to be a pocket passer in the NFL with "scrambling" ability turned out to have a fine career?

Set me straight if I'm off base!
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Old 06-23-2013   #12
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Originally Posted by welsh texan View Post
I can't agree with that my ol' mucker.

You think in this QB-driven era, playing to the strengths of the best QB's coming out of college by giving them the chance to run the ball whilst still developing their pocket passing is going to be as short-lived as taking the ball away from your QB altogether on a play?
Unless a team has two QB's, equally as talented in the read-option, there's no way that a team can count on a QB lasting a full season. Defensive coordinators and the general talent level in the NFL is too good to let a gimmick offense fool them for long.

Take a look at how many full seasons Vick has played in his career. That would be once in the 10 years he's actually played in the league. He's played 15 games 3 times. And people call Schaub fragile...

VICK
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Old 06-23-2013   #13
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Chris, are you saying Steve Young (scrambler) > than Vince Young (runner)?

And if that is true, Steve McNair the college QB (runner) who learned to be a pocket passer in the NFL with "scrambling" ability turned out to have a fine career?

Set me straight if I'm off base!
LOL, let me put it this way. Roger Staubach's nick name wasn't Roger the tackling dummy and after scrambling he would often noticeably walk away from Landry so his nick name didn't become tackling dummy. Landry would tear Staubach a new orifice for taking unnecessary risks.

For NFL trivia there are three QB's in the top 15 QB rushing leaders who have SB rings - Staubach, Elway and Young.
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Old 06-23-2013   #14
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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LOL, let me put it this way. Roger Staubach's nick name wasn't Roger the tackling dummy and after scrambling he would often noticeably walk away from Landry so his nick name didn't become tackling dummy. Landry would tear Staubach a new orifice for taking unnecessary risks.

For NFL trivia there are three QB's in the top 15 QB rushing leaders who have SB rings - Staubach, Elway and Young.
Pick your times and make them count. A much different view than the pistol.
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Old 06-23-2013   #15
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Basically, the Texans had no real replacement plan. IMO, they got arrogant, thinking almost anyone could step in and hold down the fort.
We won 13 games.

We were 8th in rushing, 11th in passing, 7th in total offense. 8th in scoring, 1st in T.O.P.

I don't think it's called arrogant when you get that kind of production.
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Old 06-23-2013   #16
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

I think to have the result we did with OLine despite the revolving door at RG us amazing. I think the system + coaching allows Smith to go for lower rated guys often for less money. Wade Smith, Myers, Briesel, Winston and Newton have allowed quality play for minimal costs. Even Studdard played significant minutes at LG. I disagree that Briesel and Winston were as good as you indicate, but coaching + need led to them accomplishing a lot. I think as other "holes" now seemingly filled will allow higher picks to be used in future if needed. My prediction is the Oline will no longer be an area of concern and I am very optimistic with our guys. Let's not over look Dave Gardner and Mondek.
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Old 06-25-2013   #17
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

Andrew Gardner? You're expecting big things from Gardner and Mondek?
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Old 06-25-2013   #18
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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Andrew Gardner? You're expecting big things from Gardner and Mondek?
Porkster, did I say that? I said do not overlook them. Our coaches took a 7th round pick 214 Newton and started him second season. I am not pushing either for starter but Gardner did look better playing for Newton end of season. I think it is possible Gardner could beat out Harris . Are you aware that Texans' web site has Gardner listed as Brown's backup? That is old and prior to draft and I think prior to re-signing Harris but as of today, I think some would agree the TC lineup would be Brown, Smith, Myers, Brooks and Newton with Harris, Williams and Gardner as competitors for backup swings.

I have Q as a OG but that could change.

I am really hopeful our Oline goes to a strength this season.
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Old 06-25-2013   #19
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

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The read-option will be about as successful as the Wild-Cat.
I think so, as well. Things tend to be cyclical in the NFL. Once something becomes trendy on offense, defenses have a learning curve to counter it.

NO scheme in the NFL is unbeatable. It might take a season or two, but once NFL defenses figure it out, game film is looked at by everyone and D-coordinators will copy-cat other defenses that work.

I remember the early 2000's and pocket passers were predicted to be dinosaurs. Vick, Culpepper, and McNabb were called "prototype QBs" and this was the future of the NFL, predicated all the so-called experts.

Very funny to me a decade later and Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are the two most dominate QBs of the decade, and arguable considered two of the best QBs in NFL history. IMMOBILE POCKET PASSERS, the exact opposite of the running QB of the "future".

Once these young QB's legs run out of gas and defenses figure out the schemes to stop the read-option, it will be another package like the wildcat that had it's day and will be put back to bed, waiting for the next generation to forget these schemes and give some young QBs a gap to shoot through for some exciting couple of seasons out of college.
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Old 06-28-2013   #20
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Default Re: Briesel & Winston Losses

The current administration has been pretty good about dumping players before their talents completely fall off. Winston's pass pro was starting to decline rapidly and Briesel could labeled injury-prone. The running game would have likely been better with both of those guys last year however it was a calculated risk that might pay off if Newton and Brooks play well this year.

There is one way to beat the read-option.... hit the QB often and hard. With the way the NFL is protecting QB's it may take some time to break down that offense, but it will happen. Defenses will just have to adjust and hit the QB every single play when it is a run, which is completely legal. If the rules are changed even further to protect running QB's then defenses will have to rely on raw speed to beat it.
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