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Old 09-10-2008   #61
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Okay, this question is for all the "Amobi played a good game" bloggers: If you're taking an algebra test and show all your work, as far as doing the right formulas, but put the wrong answer down on your scantron, does the instructor give you credit just because you showed your work? Survey says - Aaaannnnnnnnnnn! If he played so well, and was so disruptive, then where are his final results?

And for you guys that don't think DTs are supposed to make plays in a 4-3 (especially the 3-technique DT), you're wrong. This is not a 3-4 where the DLmans job is keep blockers off of the ILBs so they can run and make plays. 4-3 DT, especially the 3-technique which Amobi plays, are supposed to make plays because most of the time they are facing single blocking. Travis, who plays the 1-technique, faces a double team almost every play. The reason why he's not that productive of a player is because he doesn't have enough bulk to hold his ground. The Texans need a BIG BODY there. Still, I don't care if he was running plays down from behind-there is no way he should have finished with more productivity than Amobi. I'll reiterate this one more time: There is no way a starter on the DL should finish with no productivity on the stat sheet against a run-first team. That's absurd!
The fact of the matter is, usually during math tests the professor will give you upwards of 1/2 to 3/4 credit for a problem if you set it up correctly and made a mistake somewhere along the way that scewed your answer. This is because although your answer may or may not be right, your procedure was correct, and for that, you get credit, even if your final result was not correct. You don't get counted off full credit for inserting a wrong value or making a small math mistake. Those are mistakes that can be fixed easily, but it's the procedure and the foundation of the knowledge that counts.

The same can be said for Okoye, and for many players. While they may not be getting the results, those are what will come if they keep doing the right things. Okoye may be doing the right things, but the tackles aren't coming, or the running backs aren't running his way. The simple truth is that as long as he does the procedure correctly, then the results will come with a few minor tweaks. Just because a player doesn't get a tackle, or a sack, or a hurry, doesn't mean that they aren't doing things right. Sometimes, things just don't go the right way, and sometimes, you just have to make minor fixes to get the results.
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Old 09-10-2008   #62
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by eriadoc View Post
Dude, are you actually trying to convince us of something? Get over it. You're not reaching the same conclusions as everyone else. It happens. Go back and re-watch the game and iso on Okoye and convince yourself. If you're really interested in evaluating Okoye's play, you'll figure it out. I'm pretty sure we're all disinterested in convincing you of anything.
Conclusions? Iso on Okoye? Why? I know exactly what Amobi did-NOTHING! I didn't see him make any plays the first time I watched it. And I don't care if you're disinterested. You don't have to try and convince me of anything. You have an opinion, and so do I. It's as simple as that.
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Old 09-10-2008   #63
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Okay guy, here's Amobi Okoye's Contribution to the team so far this season: 0 Unassisted Tackles, 0 Assisted Tackles, 0 QB Pressures, 0 Sacks. And did you say that teams will look to double team Amobi Okoye when MARIO WILLIAMS is playing next to him That's too funny! You have one of the most dominate DEs in the league right now playing next to Amobi, and they're going to double team Amobi? Really? Bwahahaha! Tell you what, I'll lay off the fantasy football mentality if you lay off the bong pipe. Deal?
It's not really worth my time, but oh well. I am good at wasting time.

Once again you are equating contribution solely to stats. If you don't understand the problem with that, you really don't know much about football. Seriously.

If Amobi is getting penetration in the middle, you better damn well believe that the offense will adjust to it. If the center or guard can't handle him (like Brisiel and Myers couldn't handle Casey Hampton), you're going to have to help them out (unless you want your guys to just get manhandled). That will free up somebody... in a 4-3, it could be the other tackle, or it could be either end. If they insert a blocking TE it will help your second level because that is one less guy to cover.
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Old 09-10-2008   #64
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by buddyboy View Post
The fact of the matter is, usually during math tests the professor will give you upwards of 1/2 to 3/4 credit for a problem if you set it up correctly and made a mistake somewhere along the way that scewed your answer. This is because although your answer may or may not be right, your procedure was correct, and for that, you get credit, even if your final result was not correct. You don't get counted off full credit for inserting a wrong value or making a small math mistake. Those are mistakes that can be fixed easily, but it's the procedure and the foundation of the knowledge that counts.

The same can be said for Okoye, and for many players. While they may not be getting the results, those are what will come if they keep doing the right things. Okoye may be doing the right things, but the tackles aren't coming, or the running backs aren't running his way. The simple truth is that as long as he does the procedure correctly, then the results will come with a few minor tweaks. Just because a player doesn't get a tackle, or a sack, or a hurry, doesn't mean that they aren't doing things right. Sometimes, things just don't go the right way, and sometimes, you just have to make minor fixes to get the results.
Okay then. Let's give Amobi his final grade for the first exam of the year: Effort (or procedures) - A, Execution (or lack thereof) - F. I equate the effort grade to a citizenship grade-All you have to do is show up, be quiet, and do nothing at all to get an A in that.
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Old 09-10-2008   #65
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Conclusions? Iso on Okoye? Why? I know exactly what Amobi did-NOTHING! I didn't see him make any plays the first time I watched it. And I don't care if you're disinterested. You don't have to try and convince me of anything. You have an opinion, and so do I. It's as simple as that.
So I'm going to go ahead and guess that you haven't re-watched the game at all.
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Old 09-10-2008   #66
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by TexansLucky13 View Post
It's not really worth my time, but oh well. I am good at wasting time.

Once again you are equating contribution solely to stats. If you don't understand the problem with that, you really don't know much about football. Seriously.

If Amobi is getting penetration in the middle, you better damn well believe that the offense will adjust to it. If the center or guard can't handle him (like Brisiel and Myers couldn't handle Casey Hampton), you're going to have to help them out (unless you want your guys to just get manhandled). That will free up somebody... in a 4-3, it could be the other tackle, or it could be either end. If they insert a blocking TE it will help your second level because that is one less guy to cover.

Keep going bruh. This is getting even better! Naw, seriously-You do know who plays the other tackle and one of the either ends for us, don't you? You are a Texans fan, aren't you? Amobi Okoye's impact compared to Casey Hampton's impact..Dude, are you freaking kidding me? For real
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Old 09-10-2008   #67
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Keep going bruh. This is getting even better! Naw, seriously-You do know who plays the other tackle and one of the either ends for us, don't you? You are a Texans fan, aren't you? Amobi Okoye's impact compared to Casey Hampton's impact..Dude, are you freaking kidding me? For real

Another issue: if Okoye was #59 he would have been credited with at least 2 tackles, maybe three. I don't know if he was officially credited with a QB pressure or not, but I clearly saw him collapse the pocket and put pressure on the Pitt QBs.

Do you know how many sacks and tackles Dwight Freeney had the year Indianapolis won the superbowl? first, let me preface this by saying that he played in all 16 games:

SACKS: 5.5
TACKLES/ASSISTS: 26/3

He actually had the same amount of sacks and fewer tackles as Okoye did last year. Would you argue that Okoye's '07 season was more productive than Freeney's '06 season?.... I wouldn't!
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Old 09-10-2008   #68
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Okay then. Let's give Amobi his final grade for the first exam of the year: Effort (or procedures) - A, Execution (or lack thereof) - F. I equate the effort grade to a citizenship grade-All you have to do is show up, be quiet, and do nothing at all to get an A in that.
The point I was trying to make was that even if the "effort" didn't show up on the stat sheet *this* game, as long as Okoye continues doing the right things, the stats will come. Remember, this is only one game. Mario had games last year when he was a non-factor, but look what happened towards the end of the season. The sacks and tackles were coming, even though earlier in the season he may not be as effective. Did he magically become an exponentially better player? Not necessarily. Stats come and go, but the law of averages dictate that Okoye will have his games with not many stats, and will have his games where he might have an inflated number.
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Old 09-10-2008   #69
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Another issue: if Okoye was #59 he would have been credited with at least 2 tackles, maybe three. I don't know if he was officially credited with a QB pressure or not, but I clearly saw him collapse the pocket and put pressure on the Pitt QBs.

Do you know how many sacks and tackles Dwight Freeney had the year Indianapolis won the superbowl? first, let me preface this by saying that he played in all 16 games:

SACKS: 5.5
TACKLES/ASSISTS: 26/3

He actually had the same amount of sacks and fewer tackles as Okoye did last year. Would you argue that Okoye's '07 season was more productive than Freeney's '06 season?.... I wouldn't!
Dalemurphy, I respect your opinions bruh. I read a number of your posts and you're very even-handed in your approach. Here's the thing about me though-I don't care what Freeney did. I want Freeney to do terrible. I hate the Ponys. I'm a Texan fan. All I care about is what Texan players do. And I don't do hyperboles. He's not #59. He's #91. And "IF" is a word I just don't like. As it is, the only one I saw the whole game put pressure on Big Ben was #90. The only time I ever saw Amobi in the backfield was when Mario would pinch down inside and Amobi would loop around him to the outside. I also saw one play where he got into the backfield and let the RB run right past him. Plus, this is a new year. Right off the top of your head, I bet you can't name the last game Amobi got a sack in. He hit the wall hard last year, and still seems to be trying to break it down this year. So as far as his production in '07, that's '07. Another thing, and this goes back to the Casey Hampton thing, you can't compare Amobi to Freeney. It's not even a fair comparison for Amobi. He's not even in the same league as Freeney.
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Old 09-10-2008   #70
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Keep going bruh. This is getting even better! Naw, seriously-You do know who plays the other tackle and one of the either ends for us, don't you? You are a Texans fan, aren't you? Amobi Okoye's impact compared to Casey Hampton's impact..Dude, are you freaking kidding me? For real
I wasn't comparing them directly, I was presenting a "for instance" scenario. You continue to dance around a true discussion by arguing semantics and the only thing you take seriously is statistics.

You have no argument. I know Amobi didn't have a great game, but the lack of stats doesn't mean he had zero impact, like you are implying. We all know he needs to improve and we are all aware of the rookie wall he hit last season.
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Old 09-10-2008   #71
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Conclusions? Iso on Okoye? Why? I know exactly what Amobi did-NOTHING! I didn't see him make any plays the first time I watched it. And I don't care if you're disinterested. You don't have to try and convince me of anything. You have an opinion, and so do I. It's as simple as that.
I have come to realise that most casual or even passionate fans of the game, don't fully appreciate the millions of nuances in a players performance and technique.

Even watching a game numerous times as many of our contributors to the board do, they still don't always have the expertise to appreciate, scheme, technique, play design etc. Even fulltime professional football scouts, make mistakes and get players ability impact wrong, have you not seen the draft.

I'm sorry, while agreeing you are entitled to your opinion, I also reserve the right to take it pretty lightly if you haven't put the work in to study the tape.

Unless of course your an expert in disguise, is that you Charley Casserley? Hold on Casserley expertise didn't exactly get us far...
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Old 09-10-2008   #72
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
Dalemurphy, I respect your opinions bruh. I read a number of your posts and you're very even-handed in your approach. Here's the thing about me though-I don't care what Freeney did. I want Freeney to do terrible. I hate the Ponys. I'm a Texan fan. All I care about is what Texan players do. And I don't do hyperboles. He's not #59. He's #91. And "IF" is a word I just don't like. As it is, the only one I saw the whole game put pressure on Big Ben was #90. The only time I ever saw Amobi in the backfield was when Mario would pinch down inside and Amobi would loop around him to the outside. I also saw one play where he got into the backfield and let the RB run right past him. Plus, this is a new year. Right off the top of your head, I bet you can't name the last game Amobi got a sack in. He hit the wall hard last year, and still seems to be trying to break it down this year. So as far as his production in '07, that's '07. Another thing, and this goes back to the Casey Hampton thing, you can't compare Amobi to Freeney. It's not even a fair comparison for Amobi. He's not even in the same league as Freeney.
I know Freeney and Okoye aren't in the same league. That's the point I'm making- that the stats don't tell the whole story.

We probably are in general agreement when it comes down to our opinion of Okoye. I watched the game at a bar and left there with the impression that Okoye and the whole defense, other than Mario, played poorly. I was very surprised to see that not to be the case.

I'm singling out Okoye's play, not because it was exceptional, but because it was surprisingly solid. I had expected to see him getting washed on running plays and being ineffective in the pass rush. Instead, I saw a DT that generally won his one on one battles. Of course he didn't have a great game. He didn't make any plays. And, I agree with you that playmaking is a pretty essential component of playing well. I was excited and relieved, however, to see that Okoye wasn't the problem with the defense. And, one thing I gathered from the second viewing is there is reason to hope/expect that Okoye will be a playmaker for this team this season- and certainly doesn't look (at least in week one) to be part of the problem)... And, that's a good thing.
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Old 09-11-2008   #73
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

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I have come to realise that most casual or even passionate fans of the game, don't fully appreciate the millions of nuances in a players performance and technique.

Even watching a game numerous times as many of our contributors to the board do, they still don't always have the expertise to appreciate, scheme, technique, play design etc. Even fulltime professional football scouts, make mistakes and get players ability impact wrong, have you not seen the draft.

I'm sorry, while agreeing you are entitled to your opinion, I also reserve the right to take it pretty lightly if you haven't put the work in to study the tape.

Unless of course your an expert in disguise, is that you Charley Casserley? Hold on Casserley expertise didn't exactly get us far...

I just got finished watching the replay of the game on NFL Network. I focused primarily on the o-line and d-line to see what kind of problems the team was having stopping the run and running the ball. The one thing that stood out to me was how bad Amobi Okoye played. I mean, he flat out stunk. He had no burst off the ball, wasn't strong at the point of attack, was blown off the line of scrimmage several times, played too high, and showed absolutely no penetration. No motor at all!

I came out of high school playing MLB in a 3-4 system. I played in a 3-3-5 system at one college and a 4-3 Multiple at the other. I am very well-versed in defensive fronts, alignments, stunts, coverages, etc., because I had to be. I look at things different from the average football fan. I know on certain loop stunts that Amobi had outside contain that kept him from going after the QB. I saw that. They ran that stunt with him and Mario a couple of times during the game.

But, I also watched his pad level, his burst off the line, his strength at the point of attack when the Saints ran the ball at him. It was not good. He was consistently pushed off the ball and was a non-factor. I saw at least three times when they weren't running a stunt and Amobi had one man blocking him on pass protection. His man wore him out every time. I am not claiming to be an expert, but I know my stuff when it comes to football.

And your right about a DT's technique. That was my whole issue with Amobi. He played with horrible technique.

You know what they say about the word "Assume" don't you? But I can sit here and tell you what I know about football all day. Do you really even give a damn? I can tell you that I've played with NFL DLman like Osi Umenyiora and Ellis Wyms, but do you care? Probably not. Just like I don't care what you think about my football knowledge. I just want to let you know that I'm not some average couch potato ass fan. I've studied more film than I care to remember. I can tell you the in-and-outs of running a Tampa 2 defense because I had to study Tampa Bay's defense. But you don't care about that. So that means I also reserve the right to let you know that you don't know a thing about what I know about the nuances of football. You just "Assume"
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Old 09-11-2008   #74
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I know this is the NFL and we want guys to "produce now", but one thing I always consider with Amobi is his age....

A guy that I think about when I think about Amobi is Tommie Harris...

Both came into the leauge as 20 yr olds...Obviously Harris was a bit older...Both are quicker, gap shooting DT's...

Amobi had more sacks his first year...Harris had about 10 more tackles...Harris had 1 more tackle than Amobi this past Sunday...

Point is: He needs time to develop, that was only game one of his second NFL season as a 21 yr. old...

I don't know if Harris had problems against the run early in his career, but since we're just looking at stats...
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Old 09-11-2008   #75
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Default Re: Just Re-watched Steeler game on DVR, WOW!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan JBZ View Post
You know what they say about the word "Assume" don't you? But I can sit here and tell you what I know about football all day. Do you really even give a damn? I can tell you that I've played with NFL DLman like Osi Umenyiora and Ellis Wyms, but do you care? Probably not. Just like I don't care what you think about my football knowledge. I just want to let you know that I'm not some average couch potato ass fan. I've studied more film than I care to remember. I can tell you the in-and-outs of running a Tampa 2 defense because I had to study Tampa Bay's defense. But you don't care about that. So that means I also reserve the right to let you know that you don't know a thing about what I know about the nuances of football. You just "Assume"
What conclusion did you expect us to come up to? You, being so well versed in defensive schemes, should understand exactly why hinging on statistics is foolish.

I suppose I am proud of you for rewatching the game. Do you see how much more impressive it is for you to say "I watched his play, and he was a non-factor" rather than "I looked at his stats, and he was a non-factor". Now you can actually discuss this properly.
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