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Old 08-25-2008   #101
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
Kubiak hasn't said "we need to be more creative with what we're doing on defense"...

Instead of saying things like "We as coaches have to put them in better situations to be successful" or, "I think we gotta find different ways to get after the passer" he says "We're going to keep searchin for which guys are going to get the job done" and "we don't want to blitz a whole lot".
You make some good points. I think inevitably, Kubiak is the one who has to bear the burden of defense's failures. If he wants the defense to be more aggressive, or to play certain personnel, all he has to do is tell the defensive coaches. Kubiak has to define what he wants to see from the defense.

When we as fans say we want to fire Richard Smith, what we really want is the defense to play better. It's easier to fire the coach than the players. And no one wants Kubiak canned, the team has improved every season he's been here. I have to assume that Kubiak has ownership over the defensive philosophy and personnel. If he isn't able to communicate that with Richard Smith, or if he doesn't believe Smith can implement Kubiak's ideas, then Smith should be let go. Until then, the onus should be on Kubiak.
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Old 08-25-2008   #102
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
You make some good points. I think inevitably, Kubiak is the one who has to bear the burden of defense's failures. If he wants the defense to be more aggressive, or to play certain personnel, all he has to do is tell the defensive coaches. Kubiak has to define what he wants to see from the defense.

When we as fans say we want to fire Richard Smith, what we really want is the defense to play better. It's easier to fire the coach than the players. And no one wants Kubiak canned, the team has improved every season he's been here. I have to assume that Kubiak has ownership over the defensive philosophy and personnel. If he isn't able to communicate that with Richard Smith, or if he doesn't believe Smith can implement Kubiak's ideas, then Smith should be let go. Until then, the onus should be on Kubiak.
I completely agree.
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Old 08-25-2008   #103
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
The Cowboys front seven was supposed to be very active and strong?
They brought more to the LOS than us and they didn't get squat done!

Let's keep the expectation down, folks!


Whew! What a relief...it was all just a nightmare.

It all seemed so real while I was dreaming it.
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Old 08-25-2008   #104
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
I don't understand this question. It's supposed to stop people.




Just because he doesn't have an extensive history doesn't mean he's not capable.





From 2006 to 2007 our defense and sack count improved.....albeit very marginally...



Kubiak hasn't said "we need to be more creative with what we're doing on defense"...

Generally his angst hasn't been aimed at the schmes or defensive play calling; he moreso talks about specific players

Instead of saying things like "We as coaches have to put them in better situations to be successful" or, "I think we gotta find different ways to get after the passer" he says "We're going to keep searchin for which guys are going to get the job done" and "we don't want to blitz a whole lot".

Kubiak hasn't been shy about fessing up to poor coaching and "putting players in bad situations" so I'm not sure why he'd start beating around the bush now...




I disagree...I think our recieving corps is very talented...
I think our QB play is very good and probably going to get better...
I think our backs have some potential...
I think Vontay is really good...
I think we have some good talent up front on the O-line...
I think we have some good depth over there and really the only area of real concern is the RB's/running game...





You won't see that sort of progress with the defense...

Look who you are comparing them to....

The pedigree of the coaches and the continuity on that side of the ball far outweigh that of the defense...

I'm not shocked that a Gary Kubiak coached football team progressed much more rapidly on the offensive side of the ball than the defensive...

I think that some of Free agent pick-ups and draft picks on the offensive side of the ball have been amazing since Smithiak have taken over...

Andre Davis, Kevin Walter, Chris Meyers, Owen Daniels, Rahshard Butler, Jacoby, David Anderson, Vontay, Briesel, Winston, Slaton, Chris Taylor, Matt Schaub, Sage Rosenfels...

These are talented football players...

Defense hasn't hit on nearly the amount of draft picks and Free Agents...

I can't blame that on Richard Smith.




So we're getting better....despite our division getting tougher over that time span...




The Jags and Colts offenses can move the chains on the best of them...




How is this Smith's fault that our best DT's are smallish...

The Colts won a superbowl with a smallish front four.....Colts were called soft against the run until Bob Sanders came back...

Amazing what talented players can do for a defense...In that case, it was just one...

I'm having a hard time trying to find out what he can do so drastically different in order for our defense to take the gigantic strides forward that you all seek...

Just go away....you take all the fun out of complaining.



Signed..one of the complainers.

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Old 08-25-2008   #105
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

Nicely done, Polo!

I agree with about 95-96% of what you said!The 4-5 other percents are not major anyway.
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Old 08-25-2008   #106
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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Originally Posted by pittbull3 View Post
Fire SMITH! This is the 3rd year that we have not seen anything creative fromm the scheme. You cannot rely on 4 guys to always get pressure, especially on a PRO BOWL dominated offensive line! Fire him on Monday!
Amen!
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Old 08-25-2008   #107
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

Quote:
I don't understand this question. It's supposed to stop people.
Different defenses have different philosophies. You know what Tampa or the Colts defense is supposed to look like. Or the Eagles. Or the Panthers. Or the Titans. Or the Patriots. Or any number of team's defenses. They draft players to suit their defenses.


Quote:
Just because he doesn't have an extensive history doesn't mean he's not capable.
And that should make me feel comfortable that he can build a defense from scratch why?

Quote:
From 2006 to 2007 our defense and sack count improved.....albeit very marginally...
Also from the Pro Football Prospectus: "Although the Texans ranked 23rd in Adjusted Sack Rate [in 2007], they ranked 30th in quarterback hurries per pass."

Ew.

Quote:
Kubiak hasn't said "we need to be more creative with what we're doing on defense"...

Generally his angst hasn't been aimed at the schmes or defensive play calling; he moreso talks about specific players

Instead of saying things like "We as coaches have to put them in better situations to be successful" or, "I think we gotta find different ways to get after the passer" he says "We're going to keep searchin for which guys are going to get the job done" and "we don't want to blitz a whole lot".

Kubiak hasn't been shy about fessing up to poor coaching and "putting players in bad situations" so I'm not sure why he'd start beating around the bush now...
He isn't going to dump his defensive coordinator in the grease, that's why. He will take responsibility for himself, and he will vaguely talk about coaching in general. I will say after the first three awful games of Smith's tenure, Kubiak said he was going to spend some more time with the coaching staff, which was probably not a great sign.

But yeah, this is on Kubiak. Richard Smith could get him fired if the defense doesn't get better soonishly.

The best thing that an offensive minded head coach can do is the find an awesome defensive coordinator and let him loose. I have little reason to believe that Smith is an awesome defensive coordinator.

Quote:
I disagree...I think our recieving corps is very talented...
I think our QB play is very good and probably going to get better...
I think our backs have some potential...
I think Vontay is really good...
I think we have some good talent up front on the O-line...
I think we have some good depth over there and really the only area of real concern is the RB's/running game...
* Our receiving group is Andre Johnson and a bunch of guys that no other teams really wanted. Andre Davis almost didn't make the team last year. Kevin Walter hardly got any playing time his first year. Jacoby Jones was the guy that everybody said we picked too high. David Anderson was on the nobody was likely going to draft him list. Those are guys that Kubiak figured would work for his offense, but nobody was beating down the doors to get those guys before we put them in our system. Last year's story was gee, why don't the Texans have a real #2 receiver? After AJ went down and there was only the Dayne train, people were stunned the Texans could still move the ball some.

* As for our quarterbacks, I think there is some promise there, but both of them were backups before they started working with Kubiak.

* Running backs--no one would want any of our running backs with the exception of Slaton. The offense seeks to make the running backs, ala Ron Dayne, better than they are.

* There's plenty of promise on the offensive line, but it's not like those guys are unearthly more athletic than any other line in the league, ala Pace in his prime. I think they are a well-coached unit, but not amazingly talented.

* Overall, I think the offense is well coached, and Kubiak has assembled players who play well in his system. I think a player like an Owen Daniels is succeeding for the Texans when he might not have been developed as well in some other team.

Quote:
You won't see that sort of progress with the defense...

Look who you are comparing them to....

The pedigree of the coaches and the continuity on that side of the ball far outweigh that of the defense...
Yeah, the coaching on the offensive side of the ball is better than on the defensive side of the ball. That is something that can be fixed.

Quote:
I'm not shocked that a Gary Kubiak coached football team progressed much more rapidly on the offensive side of the ball than the defensive...

I think that some of Free agent pick-ups and draft picks on the offensive side of the ball have been amazing since Smithiak have taken over...

Andre Davis, Kevin Walter, Chris Meyers, Owen Daniels, Rahshard Butler, Jacoby, David Anderson, Vontay, Briesel, Winston, Slaton, Chris Taylor, Matt Schaub, Sage Rosenfels...

These are talented football players...
Some of those guys are athletic and talented, and some of those guys are just good fits for the system we run.

Quote:
Defense hasn't hit on nearly the amount of draft picks and Free Agents...

I can't blame that on Richard Smith.
Why can't you blame that on Richard Smith? There are players who have stunk whilst playing for the Texans, but played much better when they got into real defensive systems. Phillip Buchanon comes to mind immediately.

You get a defensive system you believe in, and coaches that believe in it, and you get the players who can excel in that system, and you put them in situations to succeed.

Just because you have an offensive minded head coach, doesn't mean that the defense is going to get short shrift. In fact, the Texans have gone out of their way to spend high draft picks on that side of the ball. I think if Smith said he needed cheeseburger eaters at DT, that's what he would get. Or more physical sizeable linebackers. (though I will say it is my understanding that it was the linebacker coach that begged for DeMeco Ryans even though that wasn't Smith's pick).

Richard Smith is the guy the Texans settled on because there weren't better coordinator candidates available at the time. And probably early season isn't the best time to can Smith. But if the defense continues to be way below average, I don't want to hear the excuse of young players because lots of teams depend on young players. I want a defensive coordinator that we can trust he knows what he is doing.

I understand from the other thread that your mind is made up on the issues involving Richard Smith. Personally, I don't understand that sort of thinking. I hope I'm completely misguided about Smith, and that his defense doesn't continue to be an albatross for this team. I think we discuss these things, not to prove that we are right, but to get us thinking about things we might not have thought of, and to give us stuff to look for on the field.

Quote:
So we're getting better....despite our division getting tougher over that time span...
If the defense is getting even marginally better, it is because they were so awful in 2005. I am still very traumatized by marginal QBs moving the ball on these Smith coached Texans.

Quote:
The Jags and Colts offenses can move the chains on the best of them...
So you want to have a defense designed to stop them. Getting taller corners I understand is part of that. I'm not sure what their philosophy is up front other than gee, Mario is going to get double, tripled team, maybe the other guys can do something.

Quote:
How is this Smith's fault that our best DT's are smallish...
Does he want smallish DTs? I don't know. Before Okam, all the guys were mostly at 285-305. If he wanted a free agent body bigger than that, I think he could get it. Okam was drafted to give some weight to the front four. I don't know if this is a plan, or he was just BPA. Who knows what their plan is on defense.

Quote:
The Colts won a superbowl with a smallish front four.....Colts were called soft against the run until Bob Sanders came back...

Amazing what talented players can do for a defense...In that case, it was just one...
The Colts have a very defined defensive philosophy that is much more than smallish defensive linemen. And they draft to suit that philosophy. I wonder if a Bob Sanders could succeed with our defense--I don't know.

Quote:
I'm having a hard time trying to find out what he can do so drastically different in order for our defense to take the gigantic strides forward that you all seek.
Maybe not put Dunta Robinson in man coverage with no safety help in a game the Texans are trying to stop the Titans from scoring quickly.

Or the strange blitz call on the last play of first Vince Young-Texans game.

Or putting Petey Faggins on an island REPEATEDLY when Faggins had already been TD torched in the Bills game.

Or not having a defense that opposing teams call "vanilla" even before the team plays the Texans.

Or not have a defensive rotation that involves the linemen sprinting off the field to "rest." (I think they ended up fixing that, but it is an illustration of some extreme coaching cluelessness.)

A defense in the salary cap era needs to be 1. Easy to learn and execute; 2. Difficult to move the ball against; 3. Have a coach that talented free agents want to play for. I don't see Houston having any of that. The defense has often been confused by what Smith is trying to get them to do.

How long are you willing to see wretched defensive play before you want to see what a defensive coordinator with a track record of success could do with it? I'm not sure who that guy would be, but McNair is willing to spend some coin.
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Old 08-25-2008   #108
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

- Pass rushing DE
- Big nasty DT
- game changing safety
- playmaking OLBs


The defense is actually missing a lot more than I orignally thought. Hopefully some of the lesser names on the roster can step up and fill some of these holes. Once D-Rob returns, he and Bennet will make for two solid corners. Until then, somebody else needs to step up as the no. 2 and I dont know who that will be.
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Old 08-25-2008   #109
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

The season will come down to these two simple factors: D-line must generate pass rush consistently & we have to run the ball. That's it. If we can't do those two well enough forget about the playoffs. Lot of people are upset with our performance against Dallas, but let's face it the Cowboys are one of the elite teams in the NFL. They are really good and although we're up and coming we're not quite there yet. I think we'll be better defensively when the season opener is here.
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Old 08-25-2008   #110
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

I've gotta believe that conversations have been taking place between Kubiak, Rick Smith, and guys like: FBush, RRhodes, JHolland about the state of the defense.

The Ray Rhodes hiring, combined with the Kubiak's tone recently regarding the defense and the fact that Richard Smith wasn't Kubes' first choice all point to the fact that an in-house change will happen during the season if things don't go well. If the defense looks like it does now once the season gets going Richard won't survive the Bye week, IMO.
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Old 08-25-2008   #111
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
I've gotta believe that conversations have been taking place between Kubiak, Rick Smith, and guys like: FBush, RRhodes, JHolland about the state of the defense.

The Ray Rhodes hiring, combined with the Kubiak's tone recently regarding the defense and the fact that Richard Smith wasn't Kubes' first choice all point to the fact that an in-house change will happen during the season if things don't go well. If the defense looks like it does now once the season gets going Richard won't survive the Bye week, IMO.
Being firmly in the "get rid of Richard Smith" camp, I'm still all for waiting for the season to start to see how we really play. If there is any truth to this "vanilla schemes" in preseason stuff, maybe when we play Pittsburg we'll see a different defense. I hope so. We might not have the best set of defensive players in the league, but we do have a LOT of talent on the defense.
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Old 08-25-2008   #112
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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Originally Posted by Thorn View Post
Being firmly in the "get rid of Richard Smith" camp, I'm still all for waiting for the season to start to see how we really play. If there is any truth to this "vanilla schemes" in preseason stuff, maybe when we play Pittsburg we'll see a different defense. I hope so. We might not have the best set of defensive players in the league, but we do have a LOT of talent on the defense.
I'm right with you, Thorn.
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Old 08-25-2008   #113
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
Different defenses have different philosophies. You know what Tampa or the Colts defense is supposed to look like. Or the Eagles. Or the Panthers. Or the Titans. Or the Patriots. Or any number of team's defenses. They draft players to suit their defenses.
Those teams have had their defenses in place for years. Any team making a transition into a completely new defensive system is going to normally take a few years to draft guys consistent with their system.

3yrs into those teams' systems I doubt they looked much like they look today..


Quote:
And that should make me feel comfortable that he can build a defense from scratch why?
Why should it make me feel uncomfortable ?


Quote:
Also from the Pro Football Prospectus: "Although the Texans ranked 23rd in Adjusted Sack Rate [in 2007], they ranked 30th in quarterback hurries per pass."

Ew.
I'm sure that had nothing to do with the athletes we had on that side of the ball....



Quote:
The best thing that an offensive minded head coach can do is the find an awesome defensive coordinator and let him loose. I have little reason to believe that Smith is an awesome defensive coordinator.
I'm not saying he's awesome either.

I don't think we need an awesome D-coordinator to win games though.


Quote:
* Our receiving group is Andre Johnson and a bunch of guys that no other teams really wanted. Andre Davis almost didn't make the team last year. Kevin Walter hardly got any playing time his first year. Jacoby Jones was the guy that everybody said we picked too high. David Anderson was on the nobody was likely going to draft him list. Those are guys that Kubiak figured would work for his offense, but nobody was beating down the doors to get those guys before we put them in our system. Last year's story was gee, why don't the Texans have a real #2 receiver? After AJ went down and there was only the Dayne train, people were stunned the Texans could still move the ball some.

* As for our quarterbacks, I think there is some promise there, but both of them were backups before they started working with Kubiak.

* Running backs--no one would want any of our running backs with the exception of Slaton. The offense seeks to make the running backs, ala Ron Dayne, better than they are.

* There's plenty of promise on the offensive line, but it's not like those guys are unearthly more athletic than any other line in the league, ala Pace in his prime. I think they are a well-coached unit, but not amazingly talented.

* Overall, I think the offense is well coached, and Kubiak has assembled players who play well in his system. I think a player like an Owen Daniels is succeeding for the Texans when he might not have been developed as well in some other team.

This is when it just comes down to opinions....

I think that some guys have definitely flourished because of our system and the opprotunities they've had, but I have a hard time believing that our same set of recievers couldn't be productive with the Saints, Colts, Pats, Eagles, Rams, Bengals, Broncos, or almost any team with a respectable QB....

Quote:
Yeah, the coaching on the offensive side of the ball is better than on the defensive side of the ball. That is something that can be fixed.
It is something that can be fixed. It's also something that doesn't necessarily need to be.


Quote:
Some of those guys are athletic and talented, and some of those guys are just good fits for the system we run.
Tomato Tomahto.



Quote:
There are players who have stunk whilst playing for the Texans, but played much better when they got into real defensive systems.
Rattle them off...

How many defensive players has Richard Smith worked with in the three years he's been a Texan that have gone on to "play much better" in different schemes ?


Quote:
You get a defensive system you believe in, and coaches that believe in it, and you get the players who can excel in that system, and you put them in situations to succeed.
Sounds good....


Quote:
Just because you have an offensive minded head coach, doesn't mean that the defense is going to get short shrift. In fact, the Texans have gone out of their way to spend high draft picks on that side of the ball.
And up until last yr. Demeco was the only one doing anything...

Why can Demeco and Mario make plays in this confusing system, but no one else can ?

Why can Amobi come into this philosophy-less system and get 5.5 sacks his rookie yr ?



Quote:
So you want to have a defense designed to stop them. Getting taller corners I understand is part of that.
And we've done that...

Quote:
I'm not sure what their philosophy is up front other than gee, Mario is going to get double, tripled team, maybe the other guys can do something.
Probably has something to do with the awkward elephant in the room known as Anthony Weaver...


Quote:
Does he want smallish DTs? I don't know. Before Okam, all the guys were mostly at 285-305. If he wanted a free agent body bigger than that, I think he could get it. Okam was drafted to give some weight to the front four. I don't know if this is a plan, or he was just BPA. Who knows what their plan is on defense.
This is speculation. Who knows what Smith has asked for...Who knows what Rick Smith has been able to provide...

I just don't see how he can have so much weight on his shoulders for the make-up of the roster....


Quote:
The Colts have a very defined defensive philosophy that is much more than smallish defensive linemen. And they draft to suit that philosophy. I wonder if a Bob Sanders could succeed with our defense--I don't know.
I think he could.

The Colts defense only has a philosophy because they've had some success...

When the Colts were getting run over and through no one knew what ther philosphy was...

Then they go out and get some better players and all of a sudden their defense has a "very defined philosphy"...

That philosphy is courtesy of Bob Sanders.




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Or putting Petey Faggins on an island REPEATEDLY when Faggins had already been TD torched in the Bills game.

To blitz or not to blitz...

Blitz and get burned...He's a hated man...

Don't blitz and get burned...He's a hated man...



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How long are you willing to see wretched defensive play before you want to see what a defensive coordinator with a track record of success could do with it? I'm not sure who that guy would be, but McNair is willing to spend some coin.

If that guy is out there...go get him....

Who said I wouldn't be down for an upgrade ?

Last edited by Polo; 08-25-2008 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 08-25-2008   #114
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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I think what our defense seems to be lacking is found in a sack between MOST men's legs.
lol.....good one.
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Old 08-25-2008   #115
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

Polo, you make some valid points, but so do the rest of us that don't like Richard Smith's style of defense. Look at guys like Monte Kiffin, Jim Johnson, Gregg Williams, Dick Labeau, and even Wade Phillips. Yes, they've had good players at certain positions over the years, but not at every position on the field. And sometimes, they've taken average talent and turned them into stars. Take Kendrell Bell for instance. He gets drafted out of Georgia to the Steelers and sets the NFL on fire for a few years. He goes to the Kansas City Chiefs and is never heard from again. Look at guys like Jeremiah Trotter and Micheal Lewis from Philly. They're in the Pro Bowl when Jim Johnson is coaching them. Trotter goes to Washington and Lewis to San Fran and they're not the same players. Simeon Rice is good player for Arizona, goes to Tampa Bay and becomes a great player. Fred Smoot has Pro Bowl-caliber capability with the Skins, goes to the Vikings and is a very average player. More guys who played for these DCs and had productive careers with them: Dhani Jones, Corey Simon, Donnie Edwards, Dexter Jackson, Dwight Smith, Hugh Douglas, Darwin Walker, Jerome McDougle. None of these guys did anything with they're careers once they left these DCs. Gregg Williams took Washington's defense to new heights, now doing the same in J-Ville. The thing they have in common is they fit the talent they have available into an effective defensive philosophy and scheme. They are also very aggressive, risk-taking playcallers. Forget that vanilla crap with these guys. Did you see the Steelers game the other night? OMG, Lebeau blitzed all the time! I don't understand your defense of Richard Smith, but you don't get why I think he should be replaced. I guess that makes us even.
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Old 08-25-2008   #116
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Polo, you make some valid points, but so do the rest of us that don't like Richard Smith's style of defense. Look at guys like Monte Kiffin, Jim Johnson, Gregg Williams, Dick Labeau, and even Wade Phillips.
These guys are outstanding Defensive Co-ordinators.

Richard Smith is not.

Not sure why all of a sudden he has to be the second coming in order for us to field a defense cabable of allowing us to win games...

If we were loaded with talent I'd be right on board....I just think talented players generally make up defenses....

If you guys got someone that can come in and be a defensive guru please get them here...
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Old 08-25-2008   #117
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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These guys are outstanding Defensive Co-ordinators.

Richard Smith is not.

Not sure why all of a sudden he has to be the second coming in order for us to field a defense cabable of allowing us to win games...
Totally agree. I just think he can do a better job than what he has shown so far.
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Old 08-25-2008   #118
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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If you guys got someone that can come in and be a defensive guru please get them here...

Jerry Gray. Former Oiler, former DC at Buffalo. I think he is coaching DBs in Washington. I really don't know with the new staff they have there if they retained him though. His defenses always were salty and played tough.
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Old 08-25-2008   #119
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

Any team with Mario Williams on it outta be getting sacks, even in pre-season. I've been watching a lot of pre-season football other than the Texans, and I see lots of teams getting sacks.
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Old 08-25-2008   #120
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Default Re: What is the Defense Missing?

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These guys are outstanding Defensive Co-ordinators.

Richard Smith is not.

Not sure why all of a sudden he has to be the second coming in order for us to field a defense cabable of allowing us to win games...

If we were loaded with talent I'd be right on board....I just think talented players generally make up defenses....

If you guys got someone that can come in and be a defensive guru please get them here...

Let's assume for a minute that our sacks and QB pressures are about where they were last year. That would put us in the bottom quarter of the league.

Do you think that a team with Mario Williams at DE along with two other first round draft picks should rank that low? I would think there are more than a handful of D.C.s that could come in and turn that unite into at least an average one.. let's not forget that we've been poor against the run as well, and that's with Demeco Ryans playing Mike LB every one of the last 32 games.
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