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Old 03-24-2005   #21
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Originally Posted by cyanides
Sharper also went from 5.5 sacks in 2002 to 2 sacks in 2004. I thought our line last year was better that the 2002 DL. So what's up with that? I figured he should have more sacks.
Considering that he was going to be a cap hit of 6.5 million this year, Casserly might well have considered that drop off in sacks to be very significant.

As for the 2002 vs. 2004 stats -

In 2002, the linebackers had 19 sacks, and the DL had 9.5
In 2004, the linebackers had 13.5 sacks, and the DL had 4.5 (Smith 2, Payne 2, and Walker .5)

In 2002, 8 of the 19 linebacker sacks were Jeff Posey's. Sharper 5.5, and Wong 5.5. In 2004, Kailee Wong was the only one to match the 2002 totals, 5.5.
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Old 03-24-2005   #22
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Originally Posted by Marcus
Considering that he was going to be a cap hit of 6.5 million this year, Casserly might well have considered that drop off in sacks to be very significant.

As for the 2002 vs. 2004 stats -

In 2002, the linebackers had 19 sacks, and the DL had 9.5
In 2004, the linebackers had 13.5 sacks, and the DL had 4.5 (Smith 2, Payne 2, and Walker .5)

In 2002, 8 of the 19 linebacker sacks were Jeff Posey's. Sharper 5.5, and Wong 5.5. In 2004, Kailee Wong was the only one to match the 2002 totals, 5.5.

thats why i wanted to show ya the stats, see there is a big diff from 02 to 04. and it may be because of personel, but regardless the drop is noticable !
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Old 03-24-2005   #23
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Originally Posted by Marcus
Oh yes, I sure can. Again, quit thinking 4-3. Every once in a awhile, a DL on a 3-4 defense will occasionally will get a sack, but that's not by design. The DL's job, again, is to disrupt the OL to enable the LBs to get to the QB unimpeded. The LBs out on the edge put the pressure on QB.

Think about this. You have 3 defensive linemen going up against 5 offensive linemen. (2 OTs, 2OGs, and a C) Asking them to sack the QB is unrealistic. It's the faster, quicker LBs whose job it is to get to the QB.

I think the 3-4 defense works better when there is pressure from the dl as well as lb's. I don't think it is unrealistic either. Somebody has to be matched up 1 on 1. Seth Payne was pressuring Miami's qb in our opening win a few years ago and it made a big difference. Our dl just has not done a good job and frankly are way overpaid for the performance we have been getting out of them. Payne has never fully recovered from his injury and maybe this year will be his comeback year. But if it isn't what then. Walker was aweful last year and Smith was just ok but it was his first year in the 3-4. It will be very interesting to see how our dl plays this year. The Texans have alot of money tied up in our 3 starting defensive lineman and as of yet they are not getting their $ worth. I think part of the shake up in the lb could be a result of the poor dl play. There isn't a whole lot the Texans can do about the dl right now because of the big money that is tied up there and the cap hit we would take by cutting mainly Walker. The best thing they can do to solve it is draft replacements now and have some competition. Maybe it will help motivate them.

Get faster linebackers to make up the difference for our slow, fat, happy, overpaid dl. If both the dl and linebackers play well this year we could have an awesome defense. IF.

Last edited by bckey; 03-24-2005 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 03-24-2005   #24
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By design, the 3-4 D-Line is manned by two-gap players who would normally be DTs in a 4-3 defense...Their main objective is to tie up as many blockers as possible and push the O-Lineman back so that the QB has no pocket to step into, allowing the edge rushers to have a clear shot at the QB...On running plays, the D-Line is still supposed to push back the O-Line making it more likely for the RB to be dropped for a loss...If a hole does open up, it should be plugged by a LB...The D-Linemen aren't necessarily expected to put up big sack numbers, but they are supposed to push back the O-Line...
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Old 03-24-2005   #25
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If your dl gets enough of a push then the qb is pressured and not just by linebackers. The pocket will collapse. We should know all too well. How many times have we seen Carr's pocket collapse with just a 3 or 4 man rush.
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Old 03-24-2005   #26
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Y'all are all right. The 3-4 is designed for the DL to be two gappers holding up the OL for the LB's to make plays. BUT, on very good 3-4's you will see that the DL both pushes back the OL limiting the QB's options and gets some sacks--such as Walker in 2002. Take a look at the sack production by the DL for Pittsburgh or the Patriots. What we need is a pre-injury Payne pushing the middle (1-3 sacks on the year) so there is no pocket and Walker and Smith to push for 5-6 sacks each. 14 sacks even if not a glamorous number from the DL will in a narrow sense paint a broader picture of pressure from the DL--if that happens count on greatly increased production from Babin and Peek/Wong/rookie.
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Old 03-24-2005   #27
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wut up fellas, im new to this board, but i think Dom Capers has the right personnell he wants now. I think we are missing a solid ROLB though. Let's be real now, Kailee Wong was never that sack artist, i think he would be better playing MLB in a 3-4 similar to what a ROLB does in a 4-3. Ok in run support and ok in pass coverage, something that Kailee is good at.

I hope we get Shawn Merriman or trade down to get Demarcus Ware. U guys will be surprised with what kind of defense we will have next year.

Im gonna use an example of what kind of defense we are gonna look like next year. The Jets. Even though the Jets are a 4-3 team, the have 3-4 personnell. Jason Fergurson is their NT(Seth Payne), Dewayne Robertson is their RE(Robaire Smith) and Shaun Ellis is really more of a 3-4 LE(Gary Walker).

Morlon Greenwood is very similar to Jonathan Vilma, as they are both coverage LBs who are more run and chase LBs. Kailee Wong is alot like Eric Barton as they are both the Balanced type LBs and Jason Babin is alot like Victor Hobson/Cowart as they excel in run support.

And John Abraham is more of a 3-4 ROLB. But they have the personelle to list him as a 4-3 DE. I doubt we can find a John Abraham in the draft, but some candidates are Merriman and Ware. Peek can be a candidate too only if he can get his head straight. We simply need a pass rush artist. Because the ROLB in alot of 3-4 teams usually come up with the most sacks and Kailee simply wasn't getting the job done because he didn't fit that role well.

I just think Foreman and Wong didn't fit the scheme right with the personelle Dom wanted to have. Sharper in a way wasn't really a run and chase LB that i think Dom wants or need from his LB.
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Old 03-24-2005   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
Y'all are all right. The 3-4 is designed for the DL to be two gappers holding up the OL for the LB's to make plays. BUT, on very good 3-4's you will see that the DL both pushes back the OL limiting the QB's options and gets some sacks--such as Walker in 2002. Take a look at the sack production by the DL for Pittsburgh
That's because the Steelers 3-4 fronts and techniques are very different from the Texans. They use angles, stunts, and play one-gap a lot more than the Texans. I remember the preseason game last year watching the endzone replays of the Steelers DL coming off in unison shooting gaps right or left (usually right). Todd Wade was never able to get an inside seal on the Steelers LDE and it created havoc all night - or at least for the few drives that the starters were in there.

http://www.nfl.com/insider/story/5665414

Last edited by aj.; 03-24-2005 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 03-24-2005   #29
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Originally Posted by aj.
That's because the Steelers 3-4 fronts and techniques are very different from the Texans. They use angles, stunts, and play one-gap a lot more than the Texans. I remember the preseason game last year watching the endzone replays of the Steelers DL coming off in unison shooting gaps right or left (usually right). Todd Wade was never able to get an inside seal on the Steelers LDE and it created havoc all night - or at least for the few drives that the starters were in there.

http://www.nfl.com/insider/story/5665414

well dang AJ i thought capers was a defensive master mind, shouldnt he be able to teach or DL something as simple as all ^^^ That ??? Not to complicated if ya ask me !
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Old 03-24-2005   #30
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The point is there are multiple DL attack schemes in the 3-4 and the Steelers under Cowher is different from the Texans under Capers by design.
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Old 03-24-2005   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
The point is there are multiple DL attack schemes in the 3-4 and the Steelers under Cowher is different from the Texans under Capers by design.
Lebeau (sp?) and Capers were kind of the inventors of the zone blitz, weren't they? And Lebeau is still with the Steelers correct?
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Old 03-24-2005   #32
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Originally Posted by wags
Lebeau (sp?) and Capers were kind of the inventors of the zone blitz, weren't they? And Lebeau is still with the Steelers correct?
Yes and yes...
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Old 03-24-2005   #33
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Yes, but the Texans do not zone blitz by the textbook definition - meaning they don't drop the DLs into short zone coverages while the LBs shoot the space vacated by the DL or elsewhere.
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Old 03-24-2005   #34
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Originally Posted by aj.
Yes, but the Texans do not zone blitz by the textbook definition - meaning they don't drop the DLs into short zone coverages while the LBs shoot the space vacated by the DL or elsewhere.
Any particular reason they don't zone blitz?
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Old 03-24-2005   #35
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(3) 320 lb. two-gap DLs across the front would be my guess.
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Old 03-24-2005   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
(3) 320 lb. two-gap DLs across the front would be my guess.
The Steelers DE are only 300 lbs, so I guess they are a little more athletic than ours. I would say the same for their LB core. They seem to be more athletic than us across the board on D. Except for CB.
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Old 03-25-2005   #37
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Getting back to my original point (which has nothing to do with zone blitz), by design the Steelers DLs play more one-gap attack than the Texans DLs which could be one of the reasons you see a guy like Aaron Smith leading them in sacks.

Last edited by aj.; 03-25-2005 at 07:24 AM.
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