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Old 06-25-2008   #221
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Like I said, the Texans found a guy who's well suited for their offense in MS.
He also had a few years in the league under his belt.
Their philosophy is to get as much done before the draft as possible.
exactly.

why are people not getting this? it's a system. the system dictates what type of player you need. he fits perfectly. and it's a major bonus that he's been in the league learning for a few years prior with the zbs wizard turning the knobs. it's the right situation. he made good decisions for the most part. especially considering that it was his first year as a starter. he got hurt. otherwise he did a really good job.
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Old 06-25-2008   #222
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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That is absolutely untrue.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?...earch=&start=0

If you go through all these clips (some are duplicates, so you have to screen them out), you should find that roughly (sometimes they don't show the beginning so you can't tell where he lined up) the numbers are as followed:

11 times under center.
9 times in the shot gun.
According to everything that was said about Kolb during that draft, everyone's big knock on Kolb was the fact that he spent very little time under the center and had a lot of work to do on his footwork. He would have to learn an entirely different game no matter where he went. He himself, iirc, even mentioned on the NFLN's combine coverage about how he wasn't as smooth at taking the ball from under center and dropping back as the other guys during the drills because he'd never really had to do it that much before.

I'll look around and see if I can track down the tape or transcript of that.
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Old 06-25-2008   #223
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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According to everything that was said about Kolb during that draft, everyone's big knock on Kolb was the fact that he spent very little time under the center and had a lot of work to do on his footwork. He would have to learn an entirely different game no matter where he went. He himself, iirc, even mentioned on the NFLN's combine coverage about how he wasn't as smooth at taking the ball from under center and dropping back as the other guys during the drills because he'd never really had to do it that much before.

I'll look around and see if I can track down the tape or transcript of that.
Add to that a problem with accuracy and poor throwing mechanics and he could've been the 3rd overall pick in the '06 draft.
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Old 06-25-2008   #224
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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exactly.

why are people not getting this? it's a system. the system dictates what type of player you need. he fits perfectly. and it's a major bonus that he's been in the league learning for a few years prior with the zbs wizard turning the knobs. it's the right situation. he made good decisions for the most part. especially considering that it was his first year as a starter. he got hurt. otherwise he did a really good job.

Are we the only people who remember the Carolina game? You know, when we had a decent center, a threat at RB, and AJ on the field with Schaub. That was a lot of fun and something we should see a lot more of this season!
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Old 06-26-2008   #225
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
According to everything that was said about Kolb during that draft, everyone's big knock on Kolb was the fact that he spent very little time under the center and had a lot of work to do on his footwork. He would have to learn an entirely different game no matter where he went. He himself, iirc, even mentioned on the NFLN's combine coverage about how he wasn't as smooth at taking the ball from under center and dropping back as the other guys during the drills because he'd never really had to do it that much before.

I'll look around and see if I can track down the tape or transcript of that.
I've heard all that!
Just lemme ask you sumthing.
You'd rather have Matt Ryan at #3 under center, right?
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Old 06-26-2008   #226
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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I've heard all that!
Just lemme ask you sumthing.
You'd rather have Matt Ryan at #3 under center, right?
No. Why would I want Matt Ryan under center?

I wouldn't have drafted Matt Ryan at #3. Personally, I wouldn't have drafted Matt Ryan in the first round. I think he's got a very high bust potential. Way too many interceptions.
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Old 06-26-2008   #227
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

Matt Ryan. Kevin Kolb. Poor Sage isn't even 1st string in his own thread.
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Old 06-26-2008   #228
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Are we the only people who remember the Carolina game? You know, when we had a decent center, a threat at RB, and AJ on the field with Schaub. That was a lot of fun and something we should see a lot more of this season!
yeah, but schaub was an overpriced rookie. that was just luck. plus, he's not a big time kid out of college that we could stick behind center with a pretty face. that's what we really need! never mind the fact that he fits the system perfectly!

we must be, dale. we must be.
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Old 06-28-2008   #229
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Matt Ryan. Kevin Kolb. Poor Sage isn't even 1st string in his own thread.
Be happy! Lots of us folks are supporting Sage!
Hey, but we can always talk other things.

Guy wants to prove something, let him step to the forefront!
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Old 06-28-2008   #230
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Be happy! Lots of us folks are supporting Sage!
Hey, but we can always talk other things.

Guy wants to prove something, let him step to the forefront!
Is it just me or does the King Kong Trio go into some sort of cracked out hyperactive mode every now and then if you stare at it for too long?
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Old 06-28-2008   #231
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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No. Why would I want Matt Ryan under center?

I wouldn't have drafted Matt Ryan at #3. Personally, I wouldn't have drafted Matt Ryan in the first round. I think he's got a very high bust potential. Way too many interceptions.
Anybody can count the Ints.
You never did tell me why you think Ryan is a "high bust potential".

I did not even hear any rebuttal about the "under center" remark.

(I just mean to talk football, never anything personal.)

So how do you think when I say that in a certain game, Ryan was in the shotgun more than he was in the normal set?
My guess is that you did not see it. How can you believe what you read more than what you see with your own eyes, I'm only asking!

To be honest, I only came back to review this game (BC/VaTech) because I have it on hand to check out Adibi and Duane Brown.
This the game the Eagles won, not the one they lost big.

Would you believe me when I say that I counted 24 snaps under center and 49 in the shotgun for Ryan?

(As usual, I don't profess to be good at counting.
Also, as I checked, a few penalties may screw that up a bit.)

I won't bother mentioning the "potential" Ints since you have that down pat!

The thing I really want to say is that Kolb is a whole hell of a lot ready for the WCO than Matt Ryan (besides being a better QB in general) based on what I observed.

If you see him play throughout the 4 years and you disagree then I would say OK, we agree to disagree.

Hey, but I'm sure I'm a homer.
I never did have a chance to tell folks about a few things I think Kolb needs to watch!


He's done gone anywho!
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Old 06-28-2008   #232
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Is it just me or does the King Kong Trio go into some sort of cracked out hyperactive mode every now and then if you stare at it for too long?
It's way past midnight, so I guess that contributes!
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Old 06-28-2008   #233
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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It's way past midnight, so I guess that contributes!
I hope so. All I've had tonight is Jack Daniel's.... and King Kong was tripping me out....I'm still convinced its beyond my own delusions though. It's lagging or something to create a crazy semi-frozen/cracked out effect.
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Old 06-28-2008   #234
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

Hey, I'm only drinking sissy Miller Lite, I know neither Jack nor Jill. But I do like that KingKong emoticon. It stirs something inside!
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Old 06-28-2008   #235
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Hey, I'm only drinking sissy Miller Lite, I know neither Jack nor Jill. But I do like that KingKong emoticon. It stirs something inside!
I actually considered getting some beer...but I think I'm going to wait until tomorrow and get some to hit up the apt pool...

Mixing liquor + beer stirs up bad things inside for me...way worse than King Kong ever could. Give me one or the other and I'm good all night, but the combo does me in.
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Old 06-28-2008   #236
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Anybody can count the Ints.
You never did tell me why you think Ryan is a "high bust potential".

I did not even hear any rebuttal about the "under center" remark.

(I just mean to talk football, never anything personal.)

So how do you think when I say that in a certain game, Ryan was in the shotgun more than he was in the normal set?
My guess is that you did not see it. How can you believe what you read more than what you see with your own eyes, I'm only asking!

To be honest, I only came back to review this game (BC/VaTech) because I have it on hand to check out Adibi and Duane Brown.
This the game the Eagles won, not the one they lost big.

Would you believe me when I say that I counted 24 snaps under center and 49 in the shotgun for Ryan?

(As usual, I don't profess to be good at counting.
Also, as I checked, a few penalties may screw that up a bit.)

I won't bother mentioning the "potential" Ints since you have that down pat!

The thing I really want to say is that Kolb is a whole hell of a lot ready for the WCO than Matt Ryan (besides being a better QB in general) based on what I observed.

If you see him play throughout the 4 years and you disagree then I would say OK, we agree to disagree.

Hey, but I'm sure I'm a homer.
I never did have a chance to tell folks about a few things I think Kolb needs to watch!


He's done gone anywho!
You really should break this up into separate points.

1. I think that Ryan has a high bust potential because he threw so many interceptions in college. In the pros, he's probably going to have even less separation between his receivers and the DB's. To me, interceptions that high indicate either a lack of concentration, lack of intelligence, trying to force the ball in where it shouldn't be forced in, or a lack of arm strength. Since this kids supposed to have a good arm, that leads me to think he's got some other issues that are going to make his transition to the NFL hard.

I think he was one of the better QB's in a bad QB draft class and he was taken too high. He may turn into a good QB, he may not. Picking QB's is always a crapshoot.

2. I didn't "rebut" the statement about Kolb under center because you had stated in another post that you'd seen everyone saying that he spent most of his time on the shotgun.

If you want a little taste of what I was talking about then fine. Here are a couple of the citations where draft people were worried about his lack fo footwork.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...yers/6114.html
Takes most of his snaps from the shotgun and benefits from a three-receiver system. Tends to direct his throws. Stares down the primary target.
http://www.footballsfuture.com/2007/...evin_kolb.html
A big issue will be adjusting to an NFL playbook. Kolb is going to need more work lining up under center and operating out of a pro attack.
And I really don't care how much Ryan spent under center vs. Kolb. You're making a point that is irrelevant to me. That's actually a point on my side because I think Ryan was drafted way too high to begin with.

3. This whole point of this discussion is that you proposed an alternate history that was based on some questionable assumptions in an attempt to show how we could have gotten Kolb so that we could have had Kolb being groomed while Sage played. The bottom line is that if we hadn't traded for Schaub, Kolb was not going to be available with our 2nd round pick. Smithiak would have had to have been psychic to be able to determine that we needed to trade up to get Kolb and that's assuming that Smithiak even had Kolb marked as a late-first/early second round prospect which is in and of itself doubtful.

But, its pretty obvious that Smithiak did NOT have Kolb as highly ranked as you did. It's obvious that they did not think he was the man.

So your scenario is on parr with those guys that call in with those bizarre trade scenarios where teams swap weird picks and different players that have no basis in anything remotely feasible. Except that you're doing it after the fact with knowledge that people wouldn't have had.
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Old 07-01-2008   #237
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

As the draft drew nearer, several sport sites indicated that Kolb may very well be the third QB to be drafted.

I've seen as high as #20.
Adam Schefter at NFL.com had Kolb going late on the first day or early on the second day.

Where was it that I'm working with hindsight?

Soon as the Browns took Quinn at #22, if you were a GM, you ought to look at the teams and decide where you need to be to pick up the franchise QB that you're looking for.
It's a similar situation with Duane Brown, where the LTs that ranked ahead of him were all gone.
(At least that's how the Texans and I rated him.)

The following is JMO.
On another board, long before the draft, I said if one is ultra-conservative and also not a Cougar-homer that I am, a mid 40 seems fair (that is if you really study your prospects.)
I have no problem spending our 2nd.
And being the Cougar-homer that I am, I said I don't even mind if we use the original #8 pick.

The fact that the FOs decided to go with MS has nothing to do with it, because right off the bat, it eliminates this scenario.
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Old 07-01-2008   #238
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

As far as Kolb not being under center enough sounds like a fair and legitimate concern.
But if you have watched the guy for four years or if you dig deeper, the concern is not well-founded, or at least, it's not a red flag.

Even if one assumes that Kolb operated under center only half of the time, he still had 782 snaps there on passing plays.

And let's assume that the other QBs lined up under center 2/3 of the time.
Here are some comparisons:

Flacco: 625 snaps
Brohm: 790
Russell: 530
Stanton: 564
Your Royal Highness: 479
Leinart 830
T. jackson (Vikings) 656
Cutler 828
Croyle 579
T. Edwards 475
Clemens (Jets) 670

So you see, with 4 years starting, Kolb had spent plenty of time under center.

Heck, even at 50%, Kolb still had more snaps under center on passing plays than VY (718) and T. Edwards (712) had ever seen their entire collage career no matter where 'em guys lined up.

So I don't see what's the beef with "Kolb not having enough snaps under center", "Kolb needs more reps under center"???
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Old 07-01-2008   #239
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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As the draft drew nearer, several sport sites indicated that Kolb may very well be the third QB to be drafted.

I've seen as high as #20.
Adam Schefter at NFL.com had Kolb going late on the first day or early on the second day.

Where was it that I'm working with hindsight?

Soon as the Browns took Quinn at #22, if you were a GM, you ought to look at the teams and decide where you need to be to pick up the franchise QB that you're looking for.
First off, Schefter having Kolb late first day or early second day is exactly where I said he was expected to go... 3rd or 4th round.

Secondly, the hindsight is that you know where you have to trade up to to be able to get Kolb. You're saying that it was obvious that the Eagles were going to be drafting him and so you have to trade up before the Eagles to get him and I don't believe that was the case. With all the needs that the Eagles had, it was a surprise they went with a QB in the 2nd round.

IF the Texans had their sights on Kolb (which they obviously didn't) and IF they had not traded for Schaub, they probably would have thought that he'd still be there with the 7th pick (?, was it 7th) in the 2nd round. They only team they would have thought they needed to be in front of was the Dolphins.

In your scenario, the Texans would have been left without their franchise QB because he wouldn't have been there when they were picking and we'd probably have John Beck as "The Man".

But like I've said before, the whole point is moot. The Texans did not think he was "The Man". They did not target him as a guy they wanted to lead our team. Without that one essential ingredient, this is all just mental masturbation.
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Old 07-01-2008   #240
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Heck, even at 50%, Kolb still had more snaps under center on passing plays than VY (718) and T. Edwards (712) had ever seen their entire collage career no matter where 'em guys lined up.

So I don't see what's the beef with "Kolb not having enough snaps under center", "Kolb needs more reps under center"???
Well, you're pulling the 50% out of thin air. You don't know what percentage Kolb was under center. I don't know what percentage Kolb was under center. I haven't gone through any of his games and counted because I don't care. Apparently, the guys that are paid to count those things thought it was less than 50% and thought that the amount of time was a problem.

Coming out of college, VY's lack of under center experience was a big concern for a lot of guys. It was a surprise when he went to the Titans instead of Leinart. Very few people really thought he'd go that high unless he went to the Texans. The Titans took a shot with VY because of his freakish athleticism and that's why he was considered first round pick... despite his college experience.

A lot of the "system" guys who spend a lot of time in the shotgun haven't translated well to the pros. VY is one of those guys (with the jury still out). I think Carr was one of those guys. The whole Jeff Tedford crew of QB failures are in that same class, iirc. And although Kolb wasn't in that exact same offense, he was in a non-standard offense and he'd been in one offense for his entire college and high school career. There were concerns that the system inflated his numbers like Tedford's system does and like the Run And Shoot did with the Coogs back in the day and there were concerns that Kolb's numbers were the same sort of phenomena. Could he operate in a pro offense? Could he learn a new offense? Was he really as good as his stats?

Just the fact that he was a QB from UH was a huge strike against him because of the track record of UH QBs.
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