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Old 06-20-2008   #181
76Texan
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

Actually another option I mentioned was to sign Garcia and draft Kevin Kolb (who signed a 4 yr deal worth just over $4M with the Eagles.

Schaub's value (around #22-23) was more than enough to accomplish that.

I continues to support MS, I only brought this back for argument's sake!
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Old 06-20-2008   #182
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

As long as one steps up

Right now both MS and Sage are just overhyped backups
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Old 06-20-2008   #183
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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LOL, that was an intense fight!

Hey Apple, waszup.
I will refrain from all that "missing you" stuff though!
Sup man?

Been working a lot lately
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Old 06-20-2008   #184
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
I think management did not open up competition because we are too heavily invested in Schaub as our franchise QB. It would not reflect well on this franchise if we were to shell out big bucks and 2 first day draft picks to get a backup quarterback. But, this is not a reflection on Sage. Management chose not to open up competition when Carr was the starter also. Anyone care to make the argument that Carr is a better quarterback than Sage?

Commander Cody's career stats: 21 TD, 28 INT
Sage Rosenfels' career stats: 24 TD, 19 INT

Sage already has more TDs and much fewer INTs. Oh well, lets not let facts get in the way.

Im not saying Sage would make an excellent commander in chief, but I think McCain or Obama should at least tap him as VP because he is a hell of a backup
What I am trying to get at in the first paragraph you quoted is if management thought Sage was a viable option to go with you wouldn't have seen a trade for Matt Schaub in the first place. Which should be a burning question in the Sage for president crowd. Far as Carr goes I think his play has skewed the perceptions of a lot of fans on QB play. Wanting to compare Sage to him isn't saying much really much like those call that he's better then Rex Grossman, T. Jackson or McCown. Way to set the bar low....REAL LOW.

What at least my reference to Sage as Cody 2.0 is in relief he seems viable but as a full-time starter he's going to get exposed.

I've got the feeling this going to get beaten like is it Carr or the oline.
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Old 06-20-2008   #185
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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I know this has been covered, but wow it is mind boggling someone can seriously say a L means the QB didn't play well when the QB completes 70% for over 300 yards with no INT's and a QB rating over 100.
I thought I addressed what I meant when I posted this....

Quote:
the point of my post to illustrate that if QBs are supposed to beat "bad" teams then Schaub didn't come thru in the Atlanta game. But I don't think that makes him a poor QB. The "...therefore he should have been benched" comment was a bad attempt at sarcasm.
To borrow a line from Lovie Smith,
"Matt Schaub is our quarterback."

I'm just fine with that.
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Old 06-21-2008   #186
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I continues to support MS, I only brought this back for argument's sake!
I know, but I've heard these arguments before, and they don't hold true.

Garcia never had the Texans as a consideration. He visited Oakland, then flew to Tampa and signed. You can't sign someone who doesn't want to play here.

Prior to the Schaub trade, the Texans had the #39 overall pick (2nd round). The Eagles selected Kevin Kolb with the #36 pick. He would have been off the board for the Texans. Could the Texans have moved up? Maybe. But, the Eagles had moved back to the 2nd round after trading their first round pick to Dallas (#26). If the Eagles had known the Texans were interested in Kolb, they could have just sat back at #26 and taken him.

Here's the way I look at the deal. The Texans could have Matt Schaub and Amobi Okoye. Or Brady Quinn, Justin Blalock, and Fred Davis (the two players selected with the Texans 2nd round picks). I'll take Schaub and Okoye everyday of the week. Especially, on Sundays.
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Old 06-23-2008   #187
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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I know, but I've heard these arguments before, and they don't hold true.

Garcia never had the Texans as a consideration. He visited Oakland, then flew to Tampa and signed. You can't sign someone who doesn't want to play here.
While it's true that Garcia had made such a statement, it's also true that Kubiak has made this following statement when asked if no deal can get done, whether the team will be content to stay with Carr as its starting quarterback.

"That's our approach," Kubiak said. "We all have to get better. David has to get better. He's part of that. We all have to get a lot better, including this coach right here. And I have to continue working with David. He's the key to our franchise getting better."

And Rick Smith has made this following statement:
"David is our starting quarterback. We're excited about him playing in his offense."

It's not that difficult to make a case that it was all business.
The Texans FOs were posturing to try to get a trade for Carr.
Garcia and his agent were most likely trying to lure the Texans into a bidding war with the Bucs.

Considering that Garcia almost became a Texans the year before to back up Carr (for less money), it is inconceivable that Garcia would turn down at least double the $$$ "just because for some odd reason, he just doesn't like playing for the Texans".

If he considers the lowly Raiders, his agent definitely can't say that Garcia wanted to be on a winning team.

His contract with the Bucs was incentive ladden such that there was talk the Bucs purposefully hold him out of one or two late game(s) to keep him from achieving the bonus. And it's business again this season that Garcia came out to say that he wants the club to restructure his contract, and I can't blame him for doing that.

Quote:
Prior to the Schaub trade, the Texans had the #39 overall pick (2nd round). The Eagles selected Kevin Kolb with the #36 pick. He would have been off the board for the Texans. Could the Texans have moved up? Maybe. But, the Eagles had moved back to the 2nd round after trading their first round pick to Dallas (#26). If the Eagles had known the Texans were interested in Kolb, they could have just sat back at #26 and taken him.

Here's the way I look at the deal. The Texans could have Matt Schaub and Amobi Okoye. Or Brady Quinn, Justin Blalock, and Fred Davis (the two players selected with the Texans 2nd round picks). I'll take Schaub and Okoye everyday of the week. Especially, on Sundays
If you're going for a franchise QB, wouldn't you do what it takes to get the guy?

The Texans did think so with the trade to obtain MS.
His worth ends up around the #22 or #23 pick (our two second rounder and a swap down in the first.)

Let's say the Texans can see that the Eagles need to find a QB and they have the #26 pick.
Our 2nd in 07counts for 510 points on the trade value chart.
Our 2nd in 08 (with the Texans "expected to finish in the bottom third or even bottom fourth"- which we will project out to be the equivalent of a high third rounder in 07, somewhere between #65 or 265 points to #74 or 220 points.
At the low end 510+220=730 points.
That's between a #24 and #25

What more, since the Falcons seems to think that need to be at #8 to get Anderson, we can swap first round pick with them to obtain a fourth, which we can use to sweeten the deal, or keep it ourselves.

Oh well, I hope I make some sense, and present that scenario as a viable alternative.
Obviously, it didn't happen!
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Old 06-23-2008   #188
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Let's say the Texans can see that the Eagles need to find a QB and they have the #26 pick.
No one saw that the Eagles were going to take a QB, let alone one that early. That was a total surprise.

Very few people expected Kolb to go that high and most of those were Houston homers. Kolb was a system QB who wasn't accustomed to being under center and had been in the same system through HS and college. There were a ton of doubts whether he could adapt to the NFL. The Eagles saw something and took a risk and it appears they got it right... but that's not for sure, yet.

That whole trading scenario seems extremely unlikely to me.
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Old 06-23-2008   #189
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
No one saw that the Eagles were going to take a QB, let alone one that early. That was a total surprise.

Very few people expected Kolb to go that high and most of those were Houston homers. Kolb was a system QB who wasn't accustomed to being under center and had been in the same system through HS and college. There were a ton of doubts whether he could adapt to the NFL. The Eagles saw something and took a risk and it appears they got it right... but that's not for sure, yet.

That whole trading scenario seems extremely unlikely to me.
Why is it difficult to see that the Eagles wouldnt find another QB?
They did want to resign Garcia. It was when Garcia's agent want to have the time to test the FA market that the Eagles decided to move on.
(Obviously, it was also a ploy to make the Eagles up the ante.)
It tells us that Feeley was not very high in Reid's mind.

Kolb had taken snaps in most of the formation imaginable in Briles' "ingeniusly crazy" scheme.
The fact that Kolb can function well in all of them, including the no huddle, all the quick pass and timing pattern, the bootleg. He ran the standard pro set, the spread, etc.

I did provide a link to Andy Reid's statement about Kolb's capacity to run the WCO.

But of course, a bird in hand is preferred. So I never bashed the FOs in the trade for Schaub. I only wants to know that they did all the homework necessary. And I still think that we pay a little more for him that I'd like. And so it was done.
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Old 06-23-2008   #190
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Considering that Garcia almost became a Texans the year before to back up Carr (for less money)...
Huh? Where did you hear that?
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Old 06-23-2008   #191
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Huh? Where did you hear that?
I might have saved that link on my home PC somewhere.
Dunno if I can find it, but I will try when I have a chance.
It was reported in a newspaper article (non-local).
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Old 06-23-2008   #192
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Why is it difficult to see that the Eagles wouldnt find another QB?
They did want to resign Garcia. It was when Garcia's agent want to have the time to test the FA market that the Eagles decided to move on.
(Obviously, it was also a ploy to make the Eagles up the ante.)
It tells us that Feeley was not very high in Reid's mind.
Basically, before that draft, no one talked about the Eagles taking a pick on a QB that high. When they took it, everyone was surprised.

You can look back and say, "Oh... it was obvious they were going to use a 2nd round pick to get a backup QB when they've got lots of other needs that should probably be addressed first." But that's only because hindsight is 20-20.

That was a foolish pick on the Eagle's part. Kolb probably woud have been available in the third, possibly even in the fourth. It was a pick on a guy that was/is probably going to sit on the bench for 2-3 years minimum when they could have gotten a starter at various positions that could have helped them make the playoffs last year.
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Old 06-23-2008   #193
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Basically, before that draft, no one talked about the Eagles taking a pick on a QB that high. When they took it, everyone was surprised.

You can look back and say, "Oh... it was obvious they were going to use a 2nd round pick to get a backup QB when they've got lots of other needs that should probably be addressed first." But that's only because hindsight is 20-20.

That was a foolish pick on the Eagle's part. Kolb probably woud have been available in the third, possibly even in the fourth. It was a pick on a guy that was/is probably going to sit on the bench for 2-3 years minimum when they could have gotten a starter at various positions that could have helped them make the playoffs last year.
It's more than mere speculation.
As I said, if you think a guy will feature into your future at QB, you do whatever you think it will take.

With the Falcons having pick #39 and #41, they were a strong candidate to get a QB to replace Schaub.

And then you have Miami sitting at #40 and the Vikings at #44

Just because "certain people" don't know what the GMs had in mind, does not mean that a team did not consider to draft a certain player. They do that all the time.

If the Raiders can be patient with Jamarcus Russell, so can the Eagles with Kolb.

On the other hand, there are some people who likes Brady Quinn, and there some who would not want him for anything (I'm among them.)

But the fact is we can't be sure what the GM and the HC have in mind on draft day.

Take the Dolphins for example, they took John Beck in the second last year, but still drafted Chad Henne this year. And yeah, I believe Miami has a lot of other needs.
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Old 06-23-2008   #194
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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It's more than mere speculation.
As I said, if you think a guy will feature into your future at QB, you do whatever you think it will take.

With the Falcons having pick #39 and #41, they were a strong candidate to get a QB to replace Schaub.

And then you have Miami sitting at #40 and the Vikings at #44

Just because "certain people" don't know what the GMs had in mind, does not mean that a team did not consider to draft a certain player. They do that all the time.

If the Raiders can be patient with Jamarcus Russell, so can the Eagles with Kolb.

On the other hand, there are some people who likes Brady Quinn, and there some who would not want him for anything (I'm among them.)

But the fact is we can't be sure what the GM and the HC have in mind on draft day.

Take the Dolphins for example, they took John Beck in the second last year, but still drafted Chad Henne this year. And yeah, I believe Miami has a lot of other needs.
Those are all extremely different examples from the Eagles.

The Dolphins had an FO change and taking Henne was not unexpected. A lot of people didn't take Brady Quinn even though they could have used a QB and the team that ended up taking him didn't expect Derek Anderson or Charlie Frye to be their long term answer. The Raiders QB situation was a mess, they didn't have a solid starter and Jamarcus Russell still started some games for them.

The Eagles still had their franchise QB and he was still relatively young. To use a 2nd round draft choice on a guy that's going to be your backup for a few years and may not have the skills to even do that well, was extremely risky and... weird. They're now stuck with a problem because they're almost obliged to get rid of McNabb soon and Kolb probably won't be an upgrade.

But we're drifting from what I consider the original point. And that is that us making a move for Kolb (which assumes that our staff even liked him which is a huge assumption) and trading to get in front of the Eagles to get him simply wouldn't have happened. If our FO wanted Kolb, they wouldn't have thought they needed to go up to get him.
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Old 06-24-2008   #195
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

I did give and accept that MS was the guy our FOs targeted.

1. He had the (limited) experience.
2. I agree with the thinking of trying to get things done as much as you can before the draft.
3. Kolb was not in the WCO a big chunk of the time.

But there still remains the fact that our FOs were sticking their neck out. Their job could be on the line with this single acquisition. The money we paid.

Therefore, I proposed an alternative.
1. Get Garcia (or some veteran QB) and draft a guy you think you can build for the future.
2. I would have been OK to just go with Sage (we were not going to have a "great" shot contending anyway). The main thing is to find a franchise QB.

Is MS the guy? Maybe!
It wasn't a sure thing when we traded for Matt.
It's not a sure thing now.
Even with a 100% healthy MS.
And how much did we pay for all these uncertainties?

My alternative was Kolb.
It makes quite a bit of sense when you talk both financially and potential-wise.
I never said Kolb is a cinch.
But Andy Reid is no stupid HC when it comes to QB.

What you may not realize is that even in Kolb's worst game (his freshman year against Michigan), he played pretty well, one of the very few bright spots on the team, despite what the numbers show.
If only the rest of the team can play as well as that freshman.

You may not realize that Kolb went through 3 LTs in his senior year and still ended up with 30 TDs vs 4 Ints. The story it tells is that even as he got pressured (forty something sacks if I remember correctly), he did not make the stupid mistake of just trying to force a play that would result in an Int.

You just ask Fred Bennett how fun it was playing against Kolb.
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Old 06-24-2008   #196
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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I might have saved that link on my home PC somewhere.
Dunno if I can find it, but I will try when I have a chance.
It was reported in a newspaper article (non-local).
Sorry, I did not save it.
Did not really want to go back to the past just to prove a point.
Even though a lot of times I thought maybe I should save all the links.

I don't operate on rumors.
Though I've always said my memory is not exactly the same as when I was twenty.

But I had a theory that the Texans were presenting a deal in which the agent finally decipher that, hey, you weren't forthcoming, you were trying to screw my client just the same as the Eagles or (now) the Bucs.
We gave you a good honest effort the last time.
We want you to step up if there's gonna be a deal this time.

That was what I read.
I could be totally wrong!
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Old 06-24-2008   #197
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post

That was a foolish pick on the Eagle's part. Kolb probably woud have been available in the third, possibly even in the fourth. It was a pick on a guy that was/is probably going to sit on the bench for 2-3 years minimum when they could have gotten a starter at various positions that could have helped them make the playoffs last year.
Didn't Miami take a QB 4 picks behind the Eagles?? John Beck... unless you're saying that Philly overrated Kolb.

But with McNabb missing major time for two years running, & he's not getting any younger.. I think it was a good move by the Eagles to get a QB, and start working with him.


but that's just me.


I also would have preferred to stay with Sage, and draft a young QB in the second. Hindsight and all, I think we'd have done just as well with Sage as our starter in '07, as we did with Schaub.

But I'm not bitter....... woo hoo Schaub...... I just think it was a bold move. The kind of move you make, when you see a Bret Farve sitting on somebody's bench.

I know there was talk on this board, that Schaub was the real deal. He was expected to be the big FA of that period.

I never thought that way, but it seems all those people disappeared from this forum, from CNN once we picked him up.
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Old 06-24-2008   #198
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

I don't perceive the Eagles pick as foolish (and I don't think he would have been there later in the draft for the Eagles)....they seem to realize that if you find a guy you can project as a starter you should take him and groom him for a few years as the best course to give your offense continuity. They may not want to give McNabb more money after his current contract.
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Old 06-24-2008   #199
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post

I never thought that way, but it seems all those people disappeared from this forum, from CNN once we picked him up.
I haven't gone anywhere. I was a huge Schaub advocate. Still am. I am however more even keeled after seeing him play here. I'm not saying he can't be great, in fact I can remember the best QB in Houston football history having a rough go if it his first couple of years. Next thing you know you start seeing the best sign in sports history flashing "You've Just Been MOONed".

But I'm still here. I still like the deal. I don't hate Sage, I just think he's not the starter we need.

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Old 06-24-2008   #200
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Why is it difficult to see that the Eagles wouldnt find another QB?
They did want to resign Garcia. It was when Garcia's agent want to have the time to test the FA market that the Eagles decided to move on.
(Obviously, it was also a ploy to make the Eagles up the ante.)
It tells us that Feeley was not very high in Reid's mind.

Kolb had taken snaps in most of the formation imaginable in Briles' "ingeniusly crazy" scheme.
The fact that Kolb can function well in all of them, including the no huddle, all the quick pass and timing pattern, the bootleg. He ran the standard pro set, the spread, etc.

I did provide a link to Andy Reid's statement about Kolb's capacity to run the WCO.

But of course, a bird in hand is preferred. So I never bashed the FOs in the trade for Schaub. I only wants to know that they did all the homework necessary. And I still think that we pay a little more for him that I'd like. And so it was done.
Take all the logic applied for for the bolded statement and replace Feeley with Rosenfels. McNair realized he made a mistake in the extension to Carr's contract. Daddy Shanahan nixed us making a Jake Plummer trade ironically to TB whom signed Garcia. If I remember right we even trade to make a run at...Patrick Ramsey. That to me alone says how this staff feels about Sage Rosenfels as a starter. Backup is a different story, he is a good borderline great backup.

I'm with Mike on this one. If Schaub isn't the answer at QB then it's in probably playing College ball now.
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