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Old 06-19-2008   #161
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
you are engaging in the time honored tradition of making excuse after excuse for the success of Sage in Houston. I witnessed it take place in 06 with Carr apologists, I witnessed it during the 07 season when Sage was exceeding all expectations, and Im witnessing it right now. According to you, none of Sage's 4 wins are worth considering, and its irrelevant that he tied an all time NFL record 4 touchdown passes in the 4th quarter to give his team the lead with under a minute left. These actual events are somehow not an accurate representation of what his ability is. ok.
Considering? In what sense? It was nice. The wins count. The 4th quarter comeback? NO. Hell no. What the guy plays the best 15 minutes of his life and that seriously weighs in?

Oh.. Minn... who has a need at QB... didn't think he was worth a second rounder. A second is what we were asking for. They said a 3rd.

But what are we arguing? Are you arguing that Sage should be the starter for this team? Is he your starter for the next 4 years? 5? 10? Give me a break. He is at best a stop gap guy. Schaub is at worst a stop gap guy. Maybe I was wrong about Schaub. Maybe he's not the guy we need for the next 6-10 years.... maybe. Sage, I'm convinced isn't. Defend him all you want. Count all of his wins. In fact, lets get his preseason wins too. And his college record... I think he went undefeated as a pop warner QB one year.

If you're going to count the numbers... he was 1-3 vs teams over .500. I don't care what he was overall.. he was 1-3 vs teams over .500. Nuff said. Don't try to shove the Jac win in there...that one didn't count. Not for me... You don't evaluate a guy based on what he does against a team who doesn't even care about the game.

This isn't a Schaub vs Sage debate. This is a Sage vs someone I want starting for my team.

Want an example? What did Schaub do vs Indy WITH a healthy Freeney? What did Sage do against a Indy w/o Freeney?


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Old 06-19-2008   #162
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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I think management did not open up competition because we are too heavily invested in Schaub as our franchise QB. It would not reflect well on this franchise if we were to shell out big bucks and 2 first day draft picks to get a backup quarterback. But, this is not a reflection on Sage. Management chose not to open up competition when Carr was the starter also. Anyone care to make the argument that Carr is a better quarterback than Sage?

Commander Cody's career stats: 21 TD, 28 INT
Sage Rosenfels' career stats: 24 TD, 19 INT

Sage already has more TDs and much fewer INTs. Oh well, lets not let facts get in the way.

Im not saying Sage would make an excellent commander in chief, but I think McCain or Obama should at least tap him as VP because he is a hell of a backup
OK... I know this isn't going to do me any good but I'll explain.

Cody was asked to throw the ball. ALOT. We had Cody throwing the ball as many as 40 times a game. The run and shoot offense was also very interception prone. I don't know if you remember much of it, but basically the QB and the receiver both had reads. Not on some plays... not like an option... and sometimes they have more than one read in one play... that is why Moon threw so many interceptions. If the QB and the receiver don't make the same read... or same two reads... wow you're in trouble..... ball might be on the other side of the field. When Moon left, Cody was expected to take over. We thought he'd be the man for a few years at least. He lasted 4 games in 94... then started one more later... I believe he was 0-5 that year...

The similarity between Cody and Sage is real. Cody played very well against bad teams. He always struggled against quality teams though. Even though this league is described as a league of parity, its not. It is a league of parity between years... but not in them. Yeah you'll have your have your exceptions, that kind of prove the rule... but in general there IS a difference between beating a bad team and a good team.

Mike
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Old 06-19-2008   #163
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
Considering? In what sense? It was nice. The wins count. The 4th quarter comeback? NO. Hell no. What the guy plays the best 15 minutes of his life and that seriously weighs in?
If you check earlier in this thread, I posted a link to a game where Sage came in in the 4th quarter with the Dolphins down 23-3 and led his team to their biggest comeback win since 1972. 3 scoring drives in the 4th quarter, the final one which culminated in a TD pass to give his team a one point lead with 6 seconds on the clock. If you recall, in 06, Sage stepped in vs the Titans when we were down 23-3, and he threw 3 2nd half TDs to almost put the Texans on top before time expired. Then in 07, he threw 4 4th quarter TDs to put his team on top with under a minute left. Do you not see a trend emerging here? How can you excuse away good performance after good performance? Preposterous.

Quote:
Oh.. Minn... who has a need at QB... didn't think he was worth a second rounder. A second is what we were asking for. They said a 3rd.
What that should tell you, is that the staff believes Sage is more valuable than a 3rd round pick.
Quote:
But what are we arguing? Are you arguing that Sage should be the starter for this team? Is he your starter for the next 4 years? 5? 10? Give me a break. He is at best a stop gap guy. Schaub is at worst a stop gap guy. Maybe I was wrong about Schaub. Maybe he's not the guy we need for the next 6-10 years.... maybe. Sage, I'm convinced isn't. Defend him all you want. Count all of his wins. In fact, lets get his preseason wins too. And his college record... I think he went undefeated as a pop warner QB one year.
Im not saying Sage should be the starter over Matt. I actually have a good feeling about Matt, he reminds me of Matt Hasselbeck. What I am arguing, is that the Texans could make a playoff push with Sage as our QB.

Quote:
If you're going to count the numbers... he was 1-3 vs teams over .500. I don't care what he was overall.. he was 1-3 vs teams over .500. Nuff said. Don't try to shove the Jac win in there...that one didn't count. Not for me... You don't evaluate a guy based on what he does against a team who doesn't even care about the game.

This isn't a Schaub vs Sage debate. This is a Sage vs someone I want starting for my team.

Want an example? What did Schaub do vs Indy WITH a healthy Freeney? What did Sage do against a Indy w/o Freeney?
Mike
man that is so wack. You say Sage was 1-3, but when I go to NFL.com it says he was 4-1, thats so odd. Schaub lost to Indy with a healthy Freeney. Sage lost to Indy withot a healthy Freeney. The Colts whoop our butts +90% of the time we play them. They've have our number up til this point. Doesnt mean Sage isnt a starting caliber QB.

Schaub: 4-7
Sage: 4-1

Thats the official record for the Texans 2007 season.
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Old 06-19-2008   #164
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
If you check earlier in this thread, I posted a link to a game where Sage came in in the 4th quarter with the Dolphins down 23-3 and led his team to their biggest comeback win since 1972. 3 scoring drives in the 4th quarter, the final one which culminated in a TD pass to give his team a one point lead with 6 seconds on the clock. If you recall, in 06, Sage stepped in vs the Titans when we were down 23-3, and he threw 3 2nd half TDs to almost put the Texans on top before time expired. Then in 07, he threw 4 4th quarter TDs to put his team on top with under a minute left. Do you not see a trend emerging here? How can you excuse away good performance after good performance? Preposterous.


What that should tell you, is that the staff believes Sage is more valuable than a 3rd round pick.


Im not saying Sage should be the starter over Matt. I actually have a good feeling about Matt, he reminds me of Matt Hasselbeck. What I am arguing, is that the Texans could make a playoff push with Sage as our QB.


man that is so wack. You say Sage was 1-3, but when I go to NFL.com it says he was 4-1, thats so odd. Schaub lost to Indy with a healthy Freeney. Sage lost to Indy withot a healthy Freeney. The Colts whoop our butts +90% of the time we play them. They've have our number up til this point. Doesnt mean Sage isnt a starting caliber QB.

Schaub: 4-7
Sage: 4-1

Thats the official record for the Texans 2007 season.
Schaub took the loss after he threw 5 passes... Sage threw 20 something that game.

Shaub took the loss after he threw 9 passes.... Sage threw 20 something. Sage took those games over in the first quarter well he started the second quarter in the second one.... he was tied or ahead in both of them.... and lost them both. Tell me... he plays 3/4 or more of the game... and is tied or ahead in both and you think Schaub should take the losses? Come on man give me a break. If he had won those games you'd be lauding him for them just like you are with the Miami game 2 years ago.


I do statistical analysis for a living. What a lot of people forget to do is go back and check the validity of the numbers. Especially when it doesn't suit them...

Mike
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Old 06-19-2008   #165
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
Schaub took the loss after he threw 5 passes... Sage threw 20 something that game.

Shaub took the loss after he threw 9 passes.... Sage threw 20 something. Sage took those games over in the first quarter well he started the second quarter in the second one.... he was tied or ahead in both of them.... and lost them both. Tell me... he plays 3/4 or more of the game... and is tied or ahead in both and you think Schaub should take the losses? Come on man give me a break. If he had won those games you'd be lauding him for them just like you are with the Miami game 2 years ago.
The fact is even if you attribute those loses to Sage (despite that he didnt go into the game as the starter), he still comes away with a winning record overall. Oops.

Sage can only play the situations he is put in. And so far he has exhibited the ability to run the offense efficiently. He had too many turnovers, but his TD - INT ration wasnt bad. The games he won dont count because the teams weren't good enough (btw, all of the teams he played had top 15 pass defenses). Yet if he loses to those teams surely it would be a strike against him, even though the victory counts for nothing. Sage just cant get credit no matter what he does. As long as he puts his team in position to win, thats what really matters though, even more than respect.
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Old 06-19-2008   #166
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Mr PC View Post
The fact is even if you attribute those loses to Sage (despite that he didnt go into the game as the starter), he still comes away with a winning record overall. Oops.

Sage can only play the situations he is put in. And so far he has exhibited the ability to run the offense efficiently. He had too many turnovers, but his TD - INT ration wasnt bad. The games he won dont count because the teams weren't good enough (btw, all of the teams he played had top 15 pass defenses). Yet if he loses to those teams surely it would be a strike against him, even though the victory counts for nothing. Sage just cant get credit no matter what he does. As long as he puts his team in position to win, thats what really matters though, even more than respect.
Well what can I say... we just disagree. I think you have to look at how he plays against good teams and bad and take that into consideration.

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Old 06-19-2008   #167
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

if your QB wins against "bad" teams, i.e. wins the games he's expected to win, isn't that a plus??

Didn't Schaub lose to an Atlanta team that we should have beaten? By the "play well against 'bad' teams" logic, Schaub didn't even accomplish that and therefore should have been benched.

After we'd opened the season with a 2-1 record and with Schaub going back to ATL for ther first time as a starter, he should have been pumped going into the ATL game. Yet he let Joey Harrington show him up.

Right now, as I've said before, Schaub was definitely two 2nd rd picks better than HWSRU, but not two picks better than Rosenfels.

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Old 06-20-2008   #168
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

As long as Schaub is a durable as a lawn chair in a tornado, we need Sage. All the talent in the world don't mean jack if you are in the trainning room more than the field.
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Old 06-20-2008   #169
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

LOL, that was an intense fight!

Hey Apple, waszup.
I will refrain from all that "missing you" stuff though!
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Old 06-20-2008   #170
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Didn't Schaub lose to an Atlanta team that we should have beaten? By the "play well against 'bad' teams" logic, Schaub didn't even accomplish that and therefore should have been benched.

After we'd opened the season with a 2-1 record and with Schaub going back to ATL for ther first time as a starter, he should have been pumped going into the ATL game. Yet he let Joey Harrington show him up.


Right now, as I've said before, Schaub was definitely two 2nd rd picks better than HWSRU, but not two picks better than Rosenfels.

So Schaub completing 70% of his passes (at over 11 yards per completion, so this isn't a "David Carr" stat), throwing for over 300 yards and a score is now considered "bad QBing" and not showing up.

I guess it was also Schaub's fault that Houston's defense let a crappy bust of a QB who later lost his job (aaagain...) channel the spirit of Tom Brady and complete 23 of 29 passes (seriously only 6 passes hit the turf) and 223 yards and 2 TDs

Sorry, but your argument falls under that "too much credit, too much blame" thing and I'm not buying it......maybe the defense and anything that resembled a running game should've got on the plane to Atlanta with Schaub.

I'm not one of these Schaub vs Rosenfels guys, I like both of them and I'm just happy we are lucky to have two quality QBs after 6 years of not having one. So now I'll refrain from this "Hatfield and McCoy" mudslinging contest, where posters are tearing down both QBs just to make "their guy" look better, and I'll just leave it up to the coaching staff to figure it out......after all, that's what they get paid to do.
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Old 06-20-2008   #171
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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So Schaub completing 70% of his passes(at over 11 yards per completion so this isn't a "David Carr" stat), throwing for over 300 yards and a score is now considered "bad QBing" and not showing up.

I guess it was also Schaub's fault that Houston's defense let a crappy bust of a QB who later lost his job (aaagain...) channel the spirit of Tom Brady and complete 23 of 29 passes (seriously only 6 passes hit the turf) and 223 yards and 2 TDs

Sorry, but your argument falls under that "too much credit, too much blame" thing and I'm not buying it......maybe the defense and anything that resembled a running game should've got on the plane to Atlanta with Schaub.

I'm not one of these Schaub vs Rosenfels guys, I like both of them and I'm just happy we are lucky to have two quality QBs after 6 years of not having one. So now I'll refrain from this "Hatfield and McCoy" mudslinging contest, where posters are tearing down both QBs just to maker "their guy" look better, and I'll just leave it up to the coaching staff to figure it out......after all, that's what they get paid to do.
I totally agree with that sentiment, we do spend a bit too much time nitpicking this or that particular stat to make our favorite guy look better. That was kind of the point of my post to illustrate that if QBs are supposed to beat "bad" teams then Schaub didn't come thru in the Atlanta game. But I don't think that makes him a poor QB. The "...therefore he should have been benched" comment was a bad attempt at sarcasm.

I completely agree that QBs get way too much credit, most of the time, for their team's success and too much blame for their team's failures.

Look, both Matt and Sage have shown they can move the ball in our system. Until someone better comes along, I'm good with either of them.

If Jake Delhomme (an undrafted "whodat" who was a backup on the Saints roster for 5 years and played in NFL Europe) was functional enough to lead a 1-15 team (that was the Panthers record the year before) thru the playoffs and to the S/B then maybe Matt and/or Sage are functional enough take us into the playoffs.

Its all about what you do when you get your shot. Assuming one gets a fair shot.
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Old 06-20-2008   #172
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
But I was only willing to give our 3rd. (The Falcons had not received any offer higher than that! And there are only so many teams that run the WCO).
Don't know where you get that from. There were multiple reports that the Falcons had received 1st and 3rd high tender trade offers from at least two teams the year before the Texans got Schaub.

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Didn't Schaub lose to an Atlanta team that we should have beaten? By the "play well against 'bad' teams" logic, Schaub didn't even accomplish that and therefore should have been benched.
I know this has been covered, but wow it is mind boggling someone can seriously say a L means the QB didn't play well when the QB completes 70% for over 300 yards with no INT's and a QB rating over 100.
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Old 06-20-2008   #173
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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I know this has been covered, but wow it is mind boggling someone can seriously say a L means the QB didn't play well when the QB completes 70% for over 300 yards with no INT's and a QB rating over 100.
See, I have a problem with the "win" Schaub received vs. Miami. This is the game where I didn't feel so good about Schaub.

Looking at the play-by-play, as well as the drive chart, Schaub had a rough time of getting consistent--The lone TD was a run by Dayne. Granted, Schaub had a deep pass to Andre Davis. And he had a few intermediate throws, as well. He was also the beneficiary of a big penalty by Jason Taylor, though.

To me, the story of the game was how Kris Brown field goals saved the day on drives that stalled. I feel that a function of the QB is being able to move the chains, and Schaub just struggled mightily this game.

This is also considering we were playing a Dolphin team who won 1 game the whole year--Not exactly a team who should have given Schaub that many problems, IMO.

If Sage is worse than Schaub, there's no way Miami is able to give Schaub those sorts of fits.

All I can do is hope that the things I see in Schaub were attributed to first-year "starting QB" growing pains. He was in a new place, new faces, new style of WCO. I hope.
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Old 06-20-2008   #174
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

I've been kinda staying out of this. But... what the hell...

I like both these guys.

I don't believe the BS about a QB being able to take a team to the SB. It takes a team. A crappy QB can get to the SB and a crappy QB can win it if he's in the right team. With a better QB, you just need less help from the rest of the team. But even with a great QB, if the team is still bad or flawed, he still might never make it to a SB.

I think that either Sage or Matt can get us to the SB as long as we have the other pieces in place. Sage doesn't complete as many long passes as Matt and he's less careful with the ball, but he's also better in the red zone. Matt is great at moving the team. But sometimes he's too careful in the red zone and sometimes he makes bad decisions down there.

I think Matt has the better upside. I think he's going to be a much, much better QB than Sage. I think Sage is as good as he's going to get and I think that Matt is going to improve. So, I think that either QB can take us to the SB but I think that Matt has the better shot.

I'm not too worried about the health issue. Both QBs have been hurt although Matt's issues last year were worse than Sage's issue the year before.

On the other hand, with the way this staff drafts, it would have been nice to have those two 2nd round picks. I think Smithiak could have done a lot with them. But I'm OK with that. I think it was a good deal. And I like having both guys on the team.
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Old 06-20-2008   #175
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Don't know where you get that from. There were multiple reports that the Falcons had received 1st and 3rd high tender trade offers from at least two teams the year before the Texans got Schaub.



I know this has been covered, but wow it is mind boggling someone can seriously say a L means the QB didn't play well when the QB completes 70% for over 300 yards with no INT's and a QB rating over 100.
I remember on the Vikings board, there was a link to a newspaper in either Minneapolis or St Paul, saying that Minn offered a third. And then later (either that same newspaper or another one up there) reported that the Vikings were seriously considering offering a second.

And when the Falcons put that high tender on Schaub, that was shot down in a heartbeat.
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Old 06-20-2008   #176
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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If Sage is worse than Schaub, there's no way Miami is able to give Schaub those sorts of fits.
You're certainly welcome to your perception of the Miami game, but that statement makes no sense. There is simply no logical connection that if the starting QB struggles in a game he can't be better than the backup--none.

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He was also the beneficiary of a big penalty by Jason Taylor, though.
Was he the victim of a big penalty by Owen Daniels on the prior play? Pretty big stretch to act like you can say the effect Taylor's personal foul had on the game.
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Old 06-20-2008   #177
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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I remember on the Vikings board, there was a link to a newspaper in either Minneapolis or St Paul, saying that Minn offered a third. And then later (either that same newspaper or another one up there) reported that the Vikings were seriously considering offering a second.
Vikings will offer 2nd round pick for Schaub

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According to the St Paul Pioneer Press the Vikings will offer a second round pick and possibly Brad Johnson to the Falcons for Quarterback Matt Schaub.

If the Vikings make this offer, the Falcons would have to give it serious consideration. A high 2nd round pick would be great value for Schaub.
Great value. But not great enough to make the Falcons pull the trigger on the deal.

Whatever the Texans paid for Schaub, you can bet the Falcons would like a do over. Instead of a cap friendly $48 million contract for an experienced NFL QB, they just spent $72 million on a rookie. And I truly believe that had the Schaub deal not gone down, the Texans would have selected Brady Quinn rather than Amobi Okoye. Noodle on that.
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Old 06-20-2008   #178
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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See, I have a problem with the "win" Schaub received vs. Miami. This is the game where I didn't feel so good about Schaub.
GP, earlier in this thread (post #105), you talked about how Schaub did not "earn a win" against Carolina. I had some vehement disagreement with that (post #112). I'm taking the above quote to mean that you actually intended to refer to Miami rather than Carolina.

If that's the case, I agree with you that it wasn't a really good game for Schaub even though he threw for nearly 300 yards. Frankly, it was a poor performance by everyone except Kris Brown. The running game went nowhere, penalties killed drives, Jason Taylor treated our backfield like his own private dance floor, and the defense allowed Cleo Lemen (?!?) to drive up and down the field. As pointed out earlier, we only managed to get in the red zone twice.

But when the game was there to be won, Schaub drove us 60 yards in less than ninety seconds after we were pinned to our 3. I see that game as a pitcher getting a win despite not having his best stuff. Schaub and company responded very well the next week early on at Jacksonville. We dominated the first 20 minutes of that game, but Andre Davis' terrible goalline fumble gave us little to show for it. Then Jacksonville strung together a long TD drive, a successful onside recovery, a FG drive to close the half and then another long TD drive to start the second half and the rout was on while our offense sat helplessly on the sideline.

Still, what matters is what's happening this year, not last. There was certainly good and bad to the play of both our QBs, but I think the coaches decided some time ago that Sage was not more than an very good backup QB. Schaub did not tear up the world in his first season, but he had his moments. He didn't do so hot his first year as a sometime-starter at UVA, but he took a quantum leap forward the next season. My money is on him pulling that trick again.
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Old 06-20-2008   #179
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Vikings will offer 2nd round pick for Schaub

Great value. But not great enough to make the Falcons pull the trigger on the deal.

Whatever the Texans paid for Schaub, you can bet the Falcons would like a do over. Instead of a cap friendly $48 million contract for an experienced NFL QB, they just spent $72 million on a rookie. And I truly believe that had the Schaub deal not gone down, the Texans would have selected Brady Quinn rather than Amobi Okoye. Noodle on that.
Definitely not Brady Quinn.

And we have yet to find out whether Ryan will make the Falcons fans forget Vick and Schaub, or continue their cryings!

But the Vikings didn't do too shabby by keeping their second and took Sidney Rice.
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Old 06-20-2008   #180
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Vikings will offer 2nd round pick for Schaub

Great value. But not great enough to make the Falcons pull the trigger on the deal.

Whatever the Texans paid for Schaub, you can bet the Falcons would like a do over. Instead of a cap friendly $48 million contract for an experienced NFL QB, they just spent $72 million on a rookie. And I truly believe that had the Schaub deal not gone down, the Texans would have selected Brady Quinn rather than Amobi Okoye. Noodle on that.
The Falcons have been wanting a do-over since the raid on Vick's boutique a few weeks after the trade. My guess is that they would have given us all our draft picks back plus an additional second-rounder for our troubles.

Had we not made that deal and Quinn fell to us, you are probably right. Then we'd be the one paying a fat contract (not Matt Ryan fat, but probably in the neighborhood of Schaub's) to a rookie. With no underage wunderkind to disrupt the other teams' blocking schemes.

The 2006 draft was where we started getting smart. The 2007 draft was where we started getting lucky, too.
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