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Old 06-18-2008   #141
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
I get positive reps and even comments from other posters on these posts, but I don't see those same people supporting my opinions here in the open.

That says a lot about the culture or climate of this board. People see me getting bashed, and they ain't about to jump into it themselves.

Oh well. LOL. This is still the best place for Texans news and conversation, so it's where I hang out. I know that I agree with you guys on about 99% of the other stuff, I just don't see eye to eye on this one. No biggee.
I'll openly support your opinion. I think your opinion was a very objective one, but I totally hope that you're wrong .Don't worry your not the only one that gets bashed around here for not thinking the Texans are SB bound yet?

Shaub has proven that he can be a pretty good QB. How good is the question that remains. Is Sage better? That is a good question, but I don't think Sage will ever get in the game unless Shaub is awful, and that is the last thing I want to happen. So, I'm all for hoping that they Shaub keeps the job, and plays well. It will be interesting to see what Shanahan brings to the offense.
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Old 06-19-2008   #142
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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You really have a serious victims mentality here. It's you versus the board.
LOL. No I don't.

I don't feed off of anything. I've seen others post similar thoughts on Sage, and there is NO replies to that person's posts (16 hours since Texecutioner's post which says he openly supports my opinion, but where's your trash talk to him?)...but I say the same thing, and you guys tee off on me. And it's happened throughout this whole debate: I say something, and four guys jump on me. Somebody else says the same thing, and it gets glossed over. LOL. Yeah, I actually DO have a victim's mentality because you guys seek me out. So, I don't think you're too far off with your assertion on that one.

You know I'll jack my jaw back at you, so you challenge me on it. In fact, you often cross the line and start ragging me on a personal level. You enjoy the arguing. And I do, too, to an extent.

I got caught up in it a few months ago, with you and Frog mostly, and I apologized to the board and said I'd back off. I've backed wayyyy off, but I make one friggin' comment on it, and try to answer the replies to my initial post, and now I'm right back in the same spot with people like you. You're just as responsible for this. You DO have the ability to ignore me, or to just NOT reply. BUt even if you ignored me, you'd still make reference to me somehow. You'd still make sure that everyone knew how you felt about me.

I've been trashed really badly. Just because I don't follow the herd. I have been here for a long time, and I always laughed at people who said "Well, I don't follow the herd." I didn't understand what that meant. Now I do. You and some others are just as inclined to try and persuade me that I am wrong, as I am to say that I'm not. I'm not following the "Schaub is the man" herd.

Right or wrong doesn't matter, we're not in a court of law and nobody's life is hanging in the balance here. This is a message board. I think. Is it?

I want to say "Thank you" to the ones who see my heart on this issue. Thunderkyss and I had some really intense, but yet respectful, arguments with each other. Bong: Were you around when those were happening? Do you remember the times he and I would go back and forth on something for pages and pages? Were you here back then? Because if you were, you'd see that I am capable of having a civil disagreement with someone. TK and I handled it the right way. But you? Well, you just love to get personal on it.

You and I just don't mix well. It's how it goes.
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Old 06-19-2008   #143
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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LOL. No I don't.
Thunderkyss and I had some really intense, but yet respectful, arguments with each other. Bong: Were you around when those were happening? Do you remember the times he and I would go back and forth on something for pages and pages? Were you here back then? Because if you were, you'd see that I am capable of having a civil disagreement with someone. TK and I handled it the right way. But you? Well, you just love to get personal on it.

You and I just don't mix well. It's how it goes.
Wait a minute, you're that GPSchaffer(sp)..

I change my mind, I'm now on b0ng's side.







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Old 06-19-2008   #144
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

So does anyone find this offensive?


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Old 06-19-2008   #145
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Hooston Texan View Post
What interests me is a sense I get that perhaps we are over-valuing the worth of a second-round pick. I think the reason for this lies in the fact that the Texans have had exactly one second-round pick in the last five drafts. But, as it happens, we knocked that lone pick right out of the park: DeMeco Ryans. So, in some folks' minds, Schaub cost us two DeMeco's--if that's the metric, even I (the biggest Schaub homer on this board) agree that we paid too much for Matt.
I would suggest that we are overvalue our own players. Look back in the past. Even now. Lets make some assumptions.

First of all. IMHO if Schaub isn't the answer, then the answer lies in college somewhere. In other words, I don't think management thinks that Sage is superbowl quality. Schaub may or may not be, but Sage isn't. That means that I am assuming, based on the fact that we had Sage on our roster and still went and spent two picks on Schaub, that Sage isn't our QB of the future.

Furthermore I am assuming that if Schaub goes down for a significant period of time, that we're in trouble this year. In order to make a serious run at the playoffs, we're going to have to have a) Schaub stay healthy and b) Schaub play better than he or Sage played last year.

Given those two assumptions, which I know there are those that disagree with. But give me those two assumptions for the sake of arguement. If you don't think that Sage is the long term solution look who was available in the second round after pick 17. I'll finish this later gotta take care of something but there are several guys available at that position that coudl help us more than a backup QB who I don't believe is the future. Including 2 QBs.

Mike
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Old 06-19-2008   #146
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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So does anyone find this offensive?


Mike

Yes.
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Old 06-19-2008   #147
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
I would suggest that we are overvalue our own players. Look back in the past. Even now. Lets make some assumptions.

First of all. IMHO if Schaub isn't the answer, then the answer lies in college somewhere. In other words, I don't think management thinks that Sage is superbowl quality. Schaub may or may not be, but Sage isn't. That means that I am assuming, based on the fact that we had Sage on our roster and still went and spent two picks on Schaub, that Sage isn't our QB of the future.

Furthermore I am assuming that if Schaub goes down for a significant period of time, that we're in trouble this year. In order to make a serious run at the playoffs, we're going to have to have a) Schaub stay healthy and b) Schaub play better than he or Sage played last year.

Given those two assumptions, which I know there are those that disagree with. But give me those two assumptions for the sake of arguement. If you don't think that Sage is the long term solution look who was available in the second round after pick 17. I'll finish this later gotta take care of something but there are several guys available at that position that coudl help us more than a backup QB who I don't believe is the future. Including 2 QBs.

Mike
I'll give you all the assumptions.

Sage is not a great QB.
Schaub needs to stay healthy to prove his worth.

But then again, there are several teams that played the SB without a great QB.

Defense wins championship, the old saying still stands.
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Old 06-19-2008   #148
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I'll give you all the assumptions.

Sage is not a great QB.
Schaub needs to stay healthy to prove his worth.

But then again, there are several teams that played the SB without a great QB.

Defense wins championship, the old saying still stands.
Well where I was going with that was this. There would have been more value for us in the 2nd round than Sage presented. Does anyone have any delusions that he's going to be here next year and beyond? I know it wasn't offered... but how much would you like a guy like Matt Forte? (earlier I was looking at the 26th pick instead of the 17th it would have been)

If your desire is to win as many games as possible now, and Matt gets hurt... then they're right (whoever they is)... no way you move Sage. But if your idea is build through the draft and develop a team that can be successful for the next 5-8 years.... I think if Minni offers you a 2nd you have to take it. You stand a real good chance to get a starter or a guy who plays significant minutes and contributes, possibly to a very good season. If Contributes, its to another 6 to 9 win season...

Just MHO.

Mike
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Old 06-19-2008   #149
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Well where I was going with that was this. There would have been more value for us in the 2nd round than Sage presented. Does anyone have any delusions that he's going to be here next year and beyond? I know it wasn't offered... but how much would you like a guy like Matt Forte? (earlier I was looking at the 26th pick instead of the 17th it would have been)

If your desire is to win as many games as possible now, and Matt gets hurt... then they're right (whoever they is)... no way you move Sage. But if your idea is build through the draft and develop a team that can be successful for the next 5-8 years.... I think if Minni offers you a 2nd you have to take it. You stand a real good chance to get a starter or a guy who plays significant minutes and contributes, possibly to a very good season. If Contributes, its to another 6 to 9 win season...

Just MHO.

Mike
The two of us on the old TT board were wanting Schaub. I can't remember if you put a number on a trade. But I was only willing to give our 3rd.
(The Falcons had not received any offer higher than that! And there are only so many teams that run the WCO).

But if our FOs were willing to stick their neck out, I'd go along. Even though I still don't like the equivalent of #22 or #23 in the first round, and a big contract to go with it.

And to think that Kubiak and Smith are well familiar with a guy named Griese from the Broncos days, very talented. I don't know how he incurred all those injuries throughout his career.
Fact is when you choose your QB, you need to find out all you can about his toughness.
(I remember reading Ditka's book, how he would rather go with a guy like Jim McMahon.)

But as long as Schaub is here, I said I will support him until he shows real signs of regressing.
Same goes for Sage.
Schaub is a better fit in our offense, IMO.

But yeah, it's a business.
A second rounder from the Vikes is well worth considering.
But I wouldn't do it until I know for sure that Schaub has enough of that toughness that we're looking for.
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Old 06-19-2008   #150
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
I would suggest that we are overvalue our own players. Look back in the past. Even now. Lets make some assumptions.

First of all. IMHO if Schaub isn't the answer, then the answer lies in college somewhere. In other words, I don't think management thinks that Sage is superbowl quality. Schaub may or may not be, but Sage isn't. That means that I am assuming, based on the fact that we had Sage on our roster and still went and spent two picks on Schaub, that Sage isn't our QB of the future.

Furthermore I am assuming that if Schaub goes down for a significant period of time, that we're in trouble this year. In order to make a serious run at the playoffs, we're going to have to have a) Schaub stay healthy and b) Schaub play better than he or Sage played last year.
Sage is not the "QB of the future" that much is true. Doesnt mean we cant make a run at the playoffs or even the superbowl with Sage at the helm. If Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson are superbowl quality QBs, then I dont see any reason to say Sage is not a superbowl quality quarterback.

You do realize, Sage was 4-1 as our starting quarterback. Winning 4 out of 5 games is not a bad record, if we can win at that pace the Texans would definitely be in the playoffs. So while your first assumption is rather dubious, your second assumption is downright incorrect.
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Old 06-19-2008   #151
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Sage is not the "QB of the future" that much is true. Doesnt mean we cant make a run at the playoffs or even the superbowl with Sage at the helm. If Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson are superbowl quality QBs, then I dont see any reason to say Sage is not a superbowl quality quarterback.

You do realize, Sage was 4-1 as our starting quarterback. Winning 4 out of 5 games is not a bad record, if we can win at that pace the Texans would definitely be in the playoffs. So while your first assumption is rather dubious, your second assumption is downright incorrect.
Why build for the playoffs if you want to win the superbowl? If you are building to win a playoff game or two I agree.... But there's a difference between a superbowl team and a playoff team, as many of us ol' Oilers fans know.

To bring up Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson and point to their play and that of Sage and then try to somehow relate the superbowls they won to winning one with Sage is... well honestly ridiculous.Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were both seasoned veterans when they went to the SB. They had both had starting gigs at other stops. They were both game managers. Sage is not a game manager. Sage tries to make plays. He makes mistakes. Alot of mistakes. Dilfer's job, specifically was to not screw up the hand off to Lewis. Johnson threw a little more, but he had basically the same function.

Oh and there's the fact that those two teams had the most dominant defenses I've ever seen live. I'm a little young to remember the Purple People eaters... I would give you the 86 bears... but they were both in some pretty elite company. Neither defense had a glaring, no neither defense had a hole in it period. We don't have that kind of defense.

I'll look for the numbers I did on past superbowl winners. Its remarkable. On average once-twice every 10 years you have a dominant defense win a SB with an average QB. Unless I've got the dominant defense in place, I'll try to build the way the other 80% do it rather than hedging my bet on the 20% chance of success...

that's just me though.

Mike

Oh.... I forgot about Sage's record.

Who did he beat? remind me again please.

Ok now that you've started to type the names of the teams he beat and realized that argument holds no water.....
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Old 06-19-2008   #152
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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But I wouldn't do it until I know for sure that Schaub has enough of that toughness that we're looking for.
That's the part I have a problem with. If Schaub's not the guy... I don't think Sage is either. Why keep him around? If someone gives you the option to get a piece of the puzzle you may need to improve your team, I think you trade your backup plan away for that.

Had we gone 10-6 last year, looked really good and thought we had a shot to go deep into the playoffs coming in... my attitude would be different. Sage is a steal for a team like that. But we're trying to get to that point now. And SAGE WILL NOT BE HERE NEXT YEAR.

Lets take the worst case scenario.. Schaub gets hurt play one game one (knock on wood). Then lets say Sage takes us to an 9-7 record. Now you're screwed. You can't count on Matt, you just gave Sage the best audition he could ask for on the free agent market... you have absolutely nothing (except like a 5th round compensatory pick at best). Sure, sage kept you from going 6-10. Sure you played meaningful games in December. But now you have no QB to go with that scenario.

That's the best I can explain my philosophy.

Mike
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Old 06-19-2008   #153
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Why build for the playoffs if you want to win the superbowl? If you are building to win a playoff game or two I agree.... But there's a difference between a superbowl team and a playoff team, as many of us ol' Oilers fans know.

To bring up Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson and point to their play and that of Sage and then try to somehow relate the superbowls they won to winning one with Sage is... well honestly ridiculous.Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson were both seasoned veterans when they went to the SB. They had both had starting gigs at other stops. They were both game managers. Sage is not a game manager. Sage tries to make plays. He makes mistakes. Alot of mistakes. Dilfer's job, specifically was to not screw up the hand off to Lewis. Johnson threw a little more, but he had basically the same function.

Oh and there's the fact that those two teams had the most dominant defenses I've ever seen. Neither defense had a glaring, no neither defense had a hole in it period. We don't have that kind of defense.

I'll look for the numbers I did on past superbowl winners. Its remarkable. On average once-twice every 10 years you have a dominant defense win a SB with an average QB. Unless I've got the dominant defense in place, I'll try to build the way the other 80% do it rather than hedging my bet on the 20% chance of success...

that's just me though.

Mike

Oh.... I forgot about Sage's record.

Who did he beat? remind me again please.

Ok now that you've started to type the names of the teams he beat and realized that argument holds no water.....
Please dont try to dismiss Sage's success with this tactic, this has been a problem throughout his career in Houston. Oh sure he played well, but it was just preseason. Oh sure he played well, but it was in the 4th quarter vs backup players. Oh sure he won 80% of the games he started, but all those teams suck (even though 3 of the 5 teams he played were playoff teams?). And the 2 teams he beat that werent playoff teams, did happen to have some of the best pass defenses in the NFL (Oakland and Denver). The only team he lost to was the Colts, and nobody would have expected us to win that game regardless of who was quarterback.

I repeat, if Rex Grossman and Jake Delhomme are good enough to get to the superbowl, so is Sage. Sure it would be great to have Manning as our QB, but you cant have an all star at every position. Sage isnt perfect and he still has some aspects to work on for sure. But he has displayed an undeniable pattern of stepping up and delivering when it matters most, in the 4th when the game is on the line. He has helped our team win games, and will continue to help our team win games. And most likely, he will continue to not get the props he deserves. But thats cool. Still, im going to set the record straight when I see him being unfairly characterized by Texans fans.
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Old 06-19-2008   #154
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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And SAGE WILL NOT BE HERE NEXT YEAR.
he will be here next year, unless we trade him. Sage's contract runs through 2009.
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Old 06-19-2008   #155
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Sage tries to make plays. He makes mistakes. Alot of mistakes.
You're right, that takes him out of the Trent Dilfer category.... But Brad Johnson was no game manager. He actually is/was a lot like Sage. Only Sage didn't have the arm, or the height.

IMHO if you've got playmakers at the receiver position, like AJ, like hopefully Jacoby, you want a guy who will take a chance every now and again.

Think Bret Farve.... he wouldn't be the HOFer he is, had he not had Sterling Sharpe.

But that's neither here nor there.

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Oh and there's the fact that those two teams had the most dominant defenses I've ever seen live.
Hopefully, they'll be saying this about our defense after this season.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post

I'll look for the numbers I did on past superbowl winners. Its remarkable. On average once-twice every 10 years you have a dominant defense win a SB with an average QB. Unless I've got the dominant defense in place, I'll try to build the way the other 80% do it rather than hedging my bet on the 20% chance of success...

that's just me though.

Mike
Seriously, some good points. But I forgot what we were arguing to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
Oh.... I forgot about Sage's record.

Who did he beat? remind me again please.

Ok now that you've started to type the names of the teams he beat and realized that argument holds no water.....
Who gives a shitz?? Wins are wins, and a few more of those dopey wins would have got us into the play-offs.

I understand that you may not value a play-off appearance, if it doesn't lead to the SuperBowl. But I believe a play-off appearance(win or lose) would have worked pretty well, with all the talk Kubiak has been spewing.
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Old 06-19-2008   #156
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Please dont try to dismiss Sage's success with this tactic, this has been a problem throughout his career in Houston. Oh sure he played well, but it was just preseason. Oh sure he played well, but it was in the 4th quarter vs backup players. Oh sure he won 80% of the games he started, but all those teams suck (even though 3 of the 5 teams he played were playoff teams?). And the 2 teams he beat that werent playoff teams, did happen to have some of the best pass defenses in the NFL (Oakland and Denver). The only team he lost to was the Colts, and nobody would have expected us to win that game regardless of who was quarterback.

I repeat, if Rex Grossman and Jake Delhomme are good enough to get to the superbowl, so is Sage. Sure it would be great to have Manning as our QB, but you cant have an all star at every position. Sage isnt perfect and he still has some aspects to work on for sure. But he has displayed an undeniable pattern of stepping up and delivering when it matters most, in the 4th when the game is on the line. He has helped our team win games, and will continue to help our team win games. And most likely, he will continue to not get the props he deserves. But thats cool. Still, im going to set the record straight when I see him being unfairly characterized by Texans fans.
OK OK... lets get this straight this time.

Sage played the majority of 7 games. (Schaub threw 9 passes vs TENN in the first and 5 in the second).

His wins....

Jac.... who rested most of their people.
Den... who finished 7-9
Tampa (the only team he beat that finished over .500 and they would have been a joke in our conference 1-5 vs AFC teams)
Oakland 4 wins FOUR

His losses?
TEN - first time he was up by 4 points in the first quarter when he comes in... throws 3 ints and has a fumble... then has a miracle 1/2 of the 4th and almost wins it.
TEN - comes out to start the 2nd quarter... score tied... goes 17/30 for 185 1 and 1
INDY - This one wasn't really even close. We were out of it by half time.

In reality he doesn't havea quality win. I REFUSE to count Jac. I'll hear Tampa MAYBE.... no I won't they're a 6 win team in the AFC.

He didn't have a SINGLE good game against a team over .500.

Now onto Delhome and Grossman. Grossman only made it to the SB because the NFC has been the ugly stepchild for quite some time. NO way they get there out of the AFC.

Carolina, again, had a loaded defense... and Del Homme actually played decent that year. AGAIN NFC... do we never count the quality of the opponent? Take the rockets streak this year. They didn't beat any good teams at full strength... was the streak amazing... yes... did it mean we were legitimately a top team in the West? NO. QUALITY OF OPPONENT MATTERS.

Mike
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Old 06-19-2008   #157
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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OK OK... lets get this straight this time.

Sage played the majority of 7 games. (Schaub threw 9 passes vs TENN in the first and 5 in the second).

His wins....

Jac.... who rested most of their people.
Den... who finished 7-9
Tampa (the only team he beat that finished over .500 and they would have been a joke in our conference 1-5 vs AFC teams)
Oakland 4 wins FOUR

His losses?
TEN - first time he was up by 4 points in the first quarter when he comes in... throws 3 ints and has a fumble... then has a miracle 1/2 of the 4th and almost wins it.
TEN - comes out to start the 2nd quarter... score tied... goes 17/30 for 185 1 and 1
INDY - This one wasn't really even close. We were out of it by half time.

In reality he doesn't havea quality win. I REFUSE to count Jac. I'll hear Tampa MAYBE.... no I won't they're a 6 win team in the AFC.

He didn't have a SINGLE good game against a team over .500.

Now onto Delhome and Grossman. Grossman only made it to the SB because the NFC has been the ugly stepchild for quite some time. NO way they get there out of the AFC.

Carolina, again, had a loaded defense... and Del Homme actually played decent that year. AGAIN NFC... do we never count the quality of the opponent? Take the rockets streak this year. They didn't beat any good teams at full strength... was the streak amazing... yes... did it mean we were legitimately a top team in the West? NO. QUALITY OF OPPONENT MATTERS.

Mike
you are engaging in the time honored tradition of making excuse after excuse for the success of Sage in Houston. I witnessed it take place in 06 with Carr apologists, I witnessed it during the 07 season when Sage was exceeding all expectations, and Im witnessing it right now. According to you, none of Sage's 4 wins are worth considering, and its irrelevant that he tied an all time NFL record 4 touchdown passes in the 4th quarter to give his team the lead with under a minute left. These actual events are somehow not an accurate representation of what his ability is. ok.
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Old 06-19-2008   #158
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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you are engaging in the time honored tradition of making excuse after excuse for the success of Sage in Houston. I witnessed it take place in 06 with Carr apologists, I witnessed it during the 07 season when Sage was exceeding all expectations, and Im witnessing it right now. According to you, none of Sage's 4 wins are worth considering, and its irrelevant that he tied an all time NFL record 4 touchdown passes in the 4th quarter to give his team the lead with under a minute left. These actual events are somehow not an accurate representation of what his ability is. ok.
Yep exceeded my expectations because I had none for him.

Mike obviously management agrees or else they would've had Sage at least compete for the spot. Obviously Kubiak whom has made some other mediocre QB's look like starters Griese, Brister at times, and Plummer under control.

This isn't even a Flutie/ Rob Johnson debate. Sage has Commander Cody 2.0 all written over him.

Mike my advice don't feed the Sage for President crowd.
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Old 06-19-2008   #159
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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I understand that you may not value a play-off appearance, if it doesn't lead to the SuperBowl. But I believe a play-off appearance(win or lose) would have worked pretty well, with all the talk Kubiak has been spewing.
Its not that I wouldn't value the opportunity to go to the playoffs. I'd love that at this point. But my job isn't to build a team. Though I like to think I could run a team... I don't.

If I were building a team... given the choice between holding onto a piece of the team that might squeek me into the playoffs if plan A didn't work... or I had the opportunity to add a player to plan A for the next several years... I'm going to add that player every time.


Now if I thought my backup might become my starter... or my team was good enough that I could win consistently with my backup.... my thinking would be different... but he won't be here after 09 (thanks for the correction)...

We've got a young team, and while winning is important... if you have a chance to build for the future... and not take away from PLAN A... then that's what you've got to do.

Mike
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Old 06-19-2008   #160
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Yep exceeded my expectations because I had none for him.

Mike obviously management agrees or else they would've had Sage at least compete for the spot. Obviously Kubiak whom has made some other mediocre QB's look like starters Griese, Brister at times, and Plummer under control.
I think management did not open up competition because we are too heavily invested in Schaub as our franchise QB. It would not reflect well on this franchise if we were to shell out big bucks and 2 first day draft picks to get a backup quarterback. But, this is not a reflection on Sage. Management chose not to open up competition when Carr was the starter also. Anyone care to make the argument that Carr is a better quarterback than Sage?
Quote:
This isn't even a Flutie/ Rob Johnson debate. Sage has Commander Cody 2.0 all written over him.
Commander Cody's career stats: 21 TD, 28 INT
Sage Rosenfels' career stats: 24 TD, 19 INT

Sage already has more TDs and much fewer INTs. Oh well, lets not let facts get in the way.

Im not saying Sage would make an excellent commander in chief, but I think McCain or Obama should at least tap him as VP because he is a hell of a backup
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