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Old 06-16-2008   #101
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Any of the guys you mentioned took their lumps until all the pieces fell into place. The exceptions were Big Ben and Brady who happened to step into situations where all the pieces were already there. All they had to do was not screw things up.
AND... no one considered Brady a 100% can't-miss prospect. He was a 6th rounder fer chrissakes. Montana was what... a 3rd?

Manning is one of the few guys I can think of offhand who was a "can't miss" guy who hasn't missed (Aikman was another). And his first year was pretty brutal. And many people thought that Leaf had even less of a miss chance than Manning.
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Old 06-16-2008   #102
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
WHAT?!?!?

It doesn't exist? LOL. Whatever, dude.

I'll have a rebuttal in a second. I need to rest from laughing so hard.

Here's the short version:

Brady has won more Super Bowls than Schaub or Sage put together.

Same for Big Ben.

Same for Manning.

Heck, those Qbs have won more games and more playoff games than ours.

But "they don't exist." Riiiight.

Think a little bit on it.
So much comedy gold, so little time.

If you are going to compare the careers of Brady, Peyton and Roethliwhatever to Schaubenfels, please note that those three have been starters for almost a combined quarter-century. Schaubenfels have had the reigns of the Texans for precisely one season. So pardon them for not doing in 1 year what those other three have done in 23.

When you find that magic wand that will make one of those three materialize onto our roster (actually, I'm not convinced that I would take Big Ben over Schaub), please let me borrow it so that I can similarly enhance my bank account. Or are you one of those who thinks we might be able to swing a deal for Brady involving C.C. Brown, the rights to Tony Boselli, a fourth-round pick and a bucket of wings? Or, to put a finer point on it, for two second-rounders?

So, sure, I grant that there is such a thing as a "franchise NFL quarterback". But if you are going to define failure at the position as anything that falls below the level of Brady/Peyton, then, well, neither I nor any other QB around can help you.
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Old 06-16-2008   #103
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

I had to punch out a fast post and leave the house for awhile. About 5 minutes after leaving the house, I already realized I didn't communicate what I was trying to say. So much so, that I didn't even read the replies because I knew (from what I typed) that I was not on top of my game.

Back now, and here's what I am saying:

I don't think Schaub is going to become the world beater that a lot of you have desired him to be. I don't condemn (entirely) the Texans' trade for him. They needed a guy, and he was the best option at the time. But you do have to think "What could we have done with two 2nd rounders the last two years?" That's TWO starter-quality players for a team who has a lot of holes to fill in terms of just getting some t-a-l-e-n-t on the field.

And Sage coming in and doing a manageable job in Schaub's place...well, there's not a fan here who hasn't thought (at least once) "Man, two 2nd rounders for two years." Schaub, IMO, might just be about as equal to Sage as a QB can get right now. Sage didn't cost us two consecutive 2nd rounders. And in fact, a lot of fans, leading up to the draft, wanted to trade Sage away for ONE 2nd rounder. (shakes head in wonderment).

Injuries have clouded the water, and I get that. But those injuries make me think that the same result is going to happen--A woozy Schaub on the sideline with the cap pulled low, and Sage at the controls. Don't even act like it's not possible, because it happened more than once last year. And those defenses we face? Someone's going to get to him at some point, it's only a matter of time.

Color me un-inspired about our two QBs. In fact, it's got me hallucenating about Shane Boyd. And all I've seen of him is a preseason game in Arizona.

Point blank: The best Houston Texans QB to take the field is not currently on the roster yet. I'm a Texans fan, I'll be watching every Sunday, but I'm not going to pin my hopes on those two QBs.

I like FiloGirl's statement about letting the best QB win the job. Unfortunately it's not how it works around here. In Houston, if you have the higher paycheck...you're the starting QB. Makes no sense to me, but it's how it has traditionally worked in Houston. Competition is only good for all other positions; the QB job is always "awarded" and never fought for.

And that's hindering our team, IMO.
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Old 06-16-2008   #104
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

We all know that Kubiak will keep Shaub as the starter. The only way that Sage comes in and gets his chance once the season starts is if Shaub is etrocious (No one wants that to happen), or if Shaub ends up getting hurt. If Shaub gets hurt for a good amount of time, then I hope it happens early so we can all see what Sage can do in a significant amount of games. Unless Shaub gets hurt though, I don't see Shaub playing bad enough to be pulled. Worst case scenario, hell be an average QB that won't be able to lead the team which is something we don't want either.

If Shaub stays healthy and Andre Johnson does as well, then don't count on seeing Sage on the field any time this season. Great backup, but he'll most likely be gone after this season. Other teams will be willing to pay for his services, and he'll definately leave if Shaub is still the starter.
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Old 06-16-2008   #105
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Well you are blatantly overlooking a pretty obvious factor--the loss of a top 5 in the league WR. Remind us when that happened?--oh yeah, end of game 2. Weaker and less effective huh?--oh look at the coincidence. AJ back and Schaub goes 21 of 33 for 294 yards 8.9 ypa 2 TD's 0 INT's and a QB rating of 112.3. The facts don't agree with your perception.
Sage worked with a depleted oline that had its players shuffled all over the line, Sage was worse off with the pass protection he had in the games he played as QB than at the start of the year when Schaub was lighting it up for those first two games with a fully-loaded line, backfield, and WR unit. So don't insert the "Andre Johnson clause" into this debate, please. Poor Schaub cannot get it done unless AJ is in the game? Boo hoo. Sage didn't have Ahman Green nor the healthy line that Schaub had earlier on. Boo hoo. Makes no matter to me.

And if our QB is only as good as long as AJ is on the field, then that's a huge issue all by itself. David Carr looked pretty damn good, too, from time to time when he was tossing up jump balls to AJ for a few years. Andre Johnson makes ANY QB look better. Be sure to reference the bolded part in any reply, please. It's sorta' a huge component to this debate.

You've used the "AJ clause" before IIRC, and it sounds good on the surface...but it doesn't justify/rationalize the fact that Schaub looked less and less like the QB he was in the first game. Heck, the SECOND game was less stellar than the first (even if only a little bit). Each game, just looking at him, seemed like he was sinking a little. Only a spectacular second half vs. Panthers saved him in that game--In all actuality, he had earned a loss in that game if we set aside the homer in all of us. A Panthers special team fumble and resulting Texans TD saved that game. Give Marciano's crew the "W" in that one, IMO.

By the time of his season-ending injury, Schaub was shaky and just having a hard time stringing together the sort of game that he is PAID to have--The Chargers game was a complete joke and Schaub looked awful from the first snap. The Miami game was a telling game, IMO, because he looked good between the 20s but he looked unsure of what to do near the red zone. Kris Brown saved THAT game, that's for sure. What should have been a blow out, turned into a squeaker--Show me a good red zone possession by Schaub in that game. I don't think there is one. I was begging for someone to break a long run or catch for a TD because it was obvious that Schaub was not going to punch it into the end zone from the 20. And this is against MIAMI. Not New England. M-i-a-m-i. Yikes.

Obviously, you think Schaub is better. I won't even say that Sage is better because I don't think he is. I honestly think neither QB is going to get us to the next step. Schaub is a lot better than David Carr, and maybe fractionally better than Sage.

To me, considering all things, we have two QBs who are pretty equal in what was done last season. One more year of it, and I am predicting fans will desire the Texans FO to chase a top draft pick QB or go after an even higher-profile QB than what Schaub was in Atlanta at the time.

Sage has every right to scratch his head. He did a good enough job last season to at least be included in the conversation of "who should the starting QB be?" Competition is good, but not for the QB job. Why?
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Old 06-16-2008   #106
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
The Miami game was a telling game, IMO, because he looked good between the 20s but he looked unsure of what to do near the red zone.
Let's see how your memory comports with the facts:

1st possession--no passing attempts inside RZ
2nd possession--never in RZ
3rd possession--never in RZ
4th possession--never in RZ
5th possession--never in RZ
6th possession--never in RZ
7th possession--never in RZ
8th possession--2 incomplete passes from 4 (set up by 24 yard pass)
9th possession--never in RZ

So you are basing your opinion on a single possession. Gotcha.

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Andre Johnson makes ANY QB look better. Be sure to reference the bolded part in any reply, please. It's sorta' a huge component to this debate.
Well what you bolded is the point. Having AJ made Sage look better. Comparing one QB with AJ and one without is apples and oranges.

Quote:
Obviously, you think Schaub is better.
I do, but that wasn't the point hence my not saying anything one way or the other above. The point is you were neglecting to consider a key piece of information.

Quote:
Sage has every right to scratch his head. He did a good enough job last season to at least be included in the conversation of "who should the starting QB be?" Competition is good, but not for the QB job. Why?
That would be your assumption. It is just as reasonable to believe Kubiak honestly believes Schaub is clearly better.
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Old 06-16-2008   #107
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post

I like FiloGirl's statement about letting the best QB win the job. Unfortunately it's not how it works around here. In Houston, if you have the higher paycheck...you're the starting QB. Makes no sense to me, but it's how it has traditionally worked in Houston. Competition is only good for all other positions; the QB job is always "awarded" and never fought for.

And that's hindering our team, IMO.
Care to give me a team on which the highest paid QB isn't starting? Don't give me Brady, he came in when Bledsoe punctured a lung and the team was rolling. Don't talk about something like the Warner situation. That's the way the league works. Do you really think that it does the team any good to have half of them wanting one QB to start and the other half aligned with a second option? Did Schaub do anything to lose the job last year? Don't give me injuries... I don't think you can be assumed an injury risk after one year. EVERYONE in the NFL thinks this guy can play. The reason I would take a second rounder for Sage is not EVERYONE in the NFL is thinking this kid could be something.

With the exception of high 1st round picks who are sitting and watching, cases where there is a huge disparity in the quality of play or you have two bad QBs, the highest guy is going to play ANYWHERE.

The only thing that makes me biased for Matt is that he is younger. We'll know a lot after this year.

And you may be right, the best QB may not be on the roster yet... but if he is its not Sage.

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Old 06-16-2008   #108
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

If Brink does well, does anybody think we will see a deadline trade involving Sage? Sage leaves after this year, his contract runs out. So, dish him for a pick or two. Of course, this all hinges on Brink becoming a passable backup.
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Old 06-16-2008   #109
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
...I am predicting fans will desire the Texans FO to chase a top draft pick QB or go after an even higher-profile QB than what Schaub was in Atlanta at the time.
Since when have the Texans capitulated to knee-jerk fans?

What's funny about Rosenfel's situation is that he would have a better chance at being traded had he sat out the camps and OTAs. Because Sage is a class act, the Texans can count on him as a valuable backup and not rocking the boat.

Gary Kubiak believes that Matt Schaub is the better QB. It's his opinion that counts and it's his job that is at stake. I doubt Kubiak is alone in the opinion in the NFL. Schaub's value was two 2nd round draft picks. And that's before he became a NFL starter. Had the Texans been offered two 2nd round draft picks for Rosenfels this offseason, some other fan board would be discussing how good Sage is/isn't.
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Old 06-16-2008   #110
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
If Brink does well, does anybody think we will see a deadline trade involving Sage? Sage leaves after this year, his contract runs out. So, dish him for a pick or two. Of course, this all hinges on Brink becoming a passable backup.
Sage doesn't leave after this year - his contract runs through the '09 season. Unless someone blows the Texans socks off with an in-season trade offer, look for Sage to be dealt next off-season.
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Old 06-16-2008   #111
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Sage doesn't leave after this year - his contract runs through the '09 season. Unless someone blows the Texans socks off with an in-season trade offer, look for Sage to be dealt next off-season.
Oh. For some reason I thought this year was his last. Well, thanks, I guess that blows this idea out of the water.
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Old 06-16-2008   #112
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
You've used the "AJ clause" before IIRC, and it sounds good on the surface...but it doesn't justify/rationalize the fact that Schaub looked less and less like the QB he was in the first game. Heck, the SECOND game was less stellar than the first (even if only a little bit). Each game, just looking at him, seemed like he was sinking a little. Only a spectacular second half vs. Panthers saved him in that game--In all actuality, he had earned a loss in that game if we set aside the homer in all of us. A Panthers special team fumble and resulting Texans TD saved that game. Give Marciano's crew the "W" in that one, IMO.
What planet were you on when you watched the Carolina game? Schaub was 20-28, 227 yards, 2TDs, no interceptions and no sacks; he was better in that game than he was against KC in week one.

After we fell behind 14-0 (thanks, in part, to a Daniels fumble), Schaub led us on 3 straight scoring drives to take a 17-14 halftime lead. It would have been 21-14 if not for a BS grounding call. On the opening possession of the third quarter, Schaub led another TD drive--24 points on four consecutive possessions. The special teams TD came on the ensuing kickoff and ended the game, but Schaub put us up by 10 points before that play.

If you believe Schaub "earned a loss" against Carolina, I can only shake my head. If that was a bad performance by Matt, then I shudder to imagine what would constitute a good performance . . .
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Old 06-16-2008   #113
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
If Brink does well, does anybody think we will see a deadline trade involving Sage? Sage leaves after this year, his contract runs out. So, dish him for a pick or two. Of course, this all hinges on Brink becoming a passable backup.
Brink will do his time on the practice squad; at least this year, maybe next year too.
If someone makes us a decent offer next year, Sage will be traded and Boyd will move up to #2 and Brink to #3. Or if Brink is progressing faster, he and Boyd will compete for the #2 spot.

But I find it hard to see anyone giving up a 2nd rounder for Sage just so he can be a backup. And I don't see any team making him their starter. There are other options already out there, Dilfer, Gray, Culpepper, or Leftwich for example. And if a team is in rebuild mode (see Dolphins or Falcons), they already have the youngster they're grooming for the future.

I like Sage, because he's done and said all the right things but I think his "window" is closing.
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Old 06-16-2008   #114
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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I had to punch out a fast post and leave the house for awhile. About 5 minutes after leaving the house, I already realized I didn't communicate what I was trying to say. So much so, that I didn't even read the replies because I knew (from what I typed) that I was not on top of my game.

Back now, and here's what I am saying:

I don't think Schaub is going to become the world beater that a lot of you have desired him to be. I don't condemn (entirely) the Texans' trade for him. They needed a guy, and he was the best option at the time. But you do have to think "What could we have done with two 2nd rounders the last two years?" That's TWO starter-quality players for a team who has a lot of holes to fill in terms of just getting some t-a-l-e-n-t on the field.

And Sage coming in and doing a manageable job in Schaub's place...well, there's not a fan here who hasn't thought (at least once) "Man, two 2nd rounders for two years." Schaub, IMO, might just be about as equal to Sage as a QB can get right now. Sage didn't cost us two consecutive 2nd rounders. And in fact, a lot of fans, leading up to the draft, wanted to trade Sage away for ONE 2nd rounder. (shakes head in wonderment).

Injuries have clouded the water, and I get that. But those injuries make me think that the same result is going to happen--A woozy Schaub on the sideline with the cap pulled low, and Sage at the controls. Don't even act like it's not possible, because it happened more than once last year. And those defenses we face? Someone's going to get to him at some point, it's only a matter of time.

Color me un-inspired about our two QBs. In fact, it's got me hallucenating about Shane Boyd. And all I've seen of him is a preseason game in Arizona.

Point blank: The best Houston Texans QB to take the field is not currently on the roster yet. I'm a Texans fan, I'll be watching every Sunday, but I'm not going to pin my hopes on those two QBs.

I like FiloGirl's statement about letting the best QB win the job. Unfortunately it's not how it works around here. In Houston, if you have the higher paycheck...you're the starting QB. Makes no sense to me, but it's how it has traditionally worked in Houston. Competition is only good for all other positions; the QB job is always "awarded" and never fought for.

And that's hindering our team, IMO.
Wow, by reading this post you'd think this is Minnesota or something. Seriously you act like Houston is taking the field with Kyle Boller.

Lighten up, both our QBs last year did a pretty good job. We have TWO quality QBs and last year was really their first solid year of starting experience so regardless of who we go with BOTH OF THEM still have room for improvement.

Another thing, I don't like to look back with the mindset "gee we could've had two 2nd round picks", because you don't know how those picks would've turned out. As long as we're getting talent back for picks that we give up in a trade I'm happy. Also the Schaub trade really only cost us one 2nd rounder, because with two 2nd picks.......we did get a player "with talent" back.

I mean, do you think people are questioning the Browns for trading away all those picks for Brady Quinn now that Derek Anderson came out of nowhere......no, because when you have a need, you fill it. At the time, we had a need for a new QB and we filled it........as long as my FO is filling needs on this team, I'll be happy and won't keep looking back with a "woulda shoulda coulda" attitude...........especially when they keep plucking gems out of the later rounds.
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Old 06-16-2008   #115
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
Care to give me a team on which the highest paid QB isn't starting? Don't give me Brady, he came in when Bledsoe punctured a lung and the team was rolling. Don't talk about something like the Warner situation. That's the way the league works. Do you really think that it does the team any good to have half of them wanting one QB to start and the other half aligned with a second option? Did Schaub do anything to lose the job last year? Don't give me injuries... I don't think you can be assumed an injury risk after one year. EVERYONE in the NFL thinks this guy can play. The reason I would take a second rounder for Sage is not EVERYONE in the NFL is thinking this kid could be something.

With the exception of high 1st round picks who are sitting and watching, cases where there is a huge disparity in the quality of play or you have two bad QBs, the highest guy is going to play ANYWHERE.

The only thing that makes me biased for Matt is that he is younger. We'll know a lot after this year.

And you may be right, the best QB may not be on the roster yet... but if he is its not Sage.

Mike
Romo over Bledsoe in 06
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Old 06-16-2008   #116
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Romo over Bledsoe in 06
but at the start of the season, Bledsoe was the #1 guy. Romo got the job because Bledsoe was a sack machine and the Cowboy line just couldn't keep him protected; Romo was/is more mobile.
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Old 06-16-2008   #117
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Romo over Bledsoe in 06
Different situation, Bledsoe was a over the hill has been on his last leg, who ended up losing his starting position midseason to a young up and comer.
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Old 06-16-2008   #118
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

True, but the Tuna was hoping Bledsoe would give him his money worth for the season!
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Old 06-16-2008   #119
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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If Brink does well, does anybody think we will see a deadline trade involving Sage? Sage leaves after this year, his contract runs out. So, dish him for a pick or two. Of course, this all hinges on Brink becoming a passable backup.

Anybody remember Zabransky sticking for awhile while the other more establish backups were released early. With Brink even showing promise early, it would be ridiculous to feel that if Schaub goes down in week 2 or 3, Brink could lead us to anywhere but the cellar..............stupid move, while we're just now seeming to get the other pieces together.
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Old 06-16-2008   #120
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Romo over Bledsoe in 06
Bledsoe played his way out of that spot. That's kind of my point. You don't bring a guy in, pay him a ton of money, and have him sit on the bench. I'll admit its backwards, but he's going to have to play his way off the field


But if you don't do it that way then you wind up with Brooks Bollinger and Chris Redman fighting to see who's the better QB because typically its QBs of that caliber that are looking for "a chance to compete".

Mike
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