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Old 06-13-2008   #61
76Texan
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
I'm assuming you're looking at backup to starter late bloomers. I guess that could be Sage. But to assume that he is the statistical anomoly is a stretch. Like I said, there's more Commander Cody than anything in him if you ask me. And that's not a bad thing. Carlson filled in very admirably for Moon on several occasions.

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Exactly! We saw Sage improving each year. Who's gonna say he has reached his ceiling?

Same thing can be said for MS (improvement but health issue questionable.)
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Old 06-13-2008   #62
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Exactly! We saw Sage improving each year. Who's gonna say he has reached his ceiling?

Same thing can be said for MS (improvement but health issue questionable.)
I ask you this question. Is he really improving? comp%, ypa, INT/TD ratio and ratings are all down.

Here's the real problem I see. The statistical data isn't really sufficient to support either of our arguments. If you watch him on the field we may have two different takes on him.

I can't site individual instances any more but I might be able to go and look up what I've written in the past. But while his completion % is relatively high, his accuracy doesn't seem to be that great. I know I know, that's a borderline oxymoron, but I've said it before. Sage's completions don't allow the receiver to run after the catch. If you look at YAC/COMP, Sage is 39th in the league. The receiver gained over two yards less than Brett Farve. Of the 38 QBs in the chart, 30 fall between 4.4 and 5.9 yards. Of the remaining 8, all of them except Kyle Boller are above 4. Kyle and Sage are the only guys below 4 yac/completion with Sage at 3.7. Again these are per completion not attempt.

Incomplete post. Its 4:00 and time for me to head to the house. If my ADHD doesn't take over I'll finish it when I get to the house.

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Old 06-13-2008   #63
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
I ask you this question. Is he really improving? comp%, ypa, INT/TD ratio and ratings are all down.

Here's the real problem I see. The statistical data isn't really sufficient to support either of our arguments. If you watch him on the field we may have two different takes on him.

I can't site individual instances any more but I might be able to go and look up what I've written in the past. But while his completion % is relatively high, his accuracy doesn't seem to be that great. I know I know, that's a borderline oxymoron, but I've said it before. Sage's completions don't allow the receiver to run after the catch. If you look at YAC/COMP, Sage is 39th in the league. The receiver gained over two yards less than Brett Farve. Of the 38 QBs in the chart, 30 fall between 4.4 and 5.9 yards. Of the remaining 8, all of them except Kyle Boller are above 4. Kyle and Sage are the only guys below 4 yac/completion with Sage at 3.7. Again these are per completion not attempt.

Incomplete post. Its 4:00 and time for me to head to the house. If my ADHD doesn't take over I'll finish it when I get to the house.

Mike
This certainly could easily be attributed to the fact that due to our line, our running game and our limited offensive package, all of which essentially was geared (by necessity) for the QB to get the ball out of his hands ASAP. Not allowing time for a play to develop also limits the separation receivers can manage in order to find open space after a catch.
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Old 06-13-2008   #64
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by CloakNNNdagger View Post
This certainly could easily be attributed to the fact that due to our line, our running game and our limited offensive package, all of which essentially was geared (by necessity) for the QB to get the ball out of his hands ASAP. Not allowing time for a play to develop also limits the separation receivers can manage in order to find open space after a catch.
If Schaub hadn't have been over a yard better than Sage then I'd be inclined to agree with you. I dunno. I do remember thinking that his throws were on target but not accurate. Several times the ball was behind or high which never bodes well for the receiver gaining yards after the catch. And I left my spreadsheet I made at work. Forgot to email it to myself, but I'll look at it next week and give you more stats.

My question is this, if the stats paint one picture, Kubes agrees with it, shanahan agrees with it and the depth chart agrees with it... then why do we assume the anomaly is the case? Statistically speaking, Sage's first year was MUCH better than his second, and the coaching staff thought they needed to go get a starter after his first year. I dunno, I've been accused of over thinking a bit, but if the stats line up and the organizations view (including kubes) line up... why not believe it?


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Old 06-13-2008   #65
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by El Tejano View Post
That was also a very well thrown ball that was placed right in front of Andre Johnson and it bounced out of his hands. That throw would've provided us a 1st down and we could've won that game.
I wondered if I was the only one who saw that that particular INT was on Andre, not Sage.
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Old 06-13-2008   #66
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.

This is coming from a guy who was lobying for him well before there were any reports saying we were actually interested in him. I'm one of his biggest supporters and have been since day -100 but he has looked lost in the red zone for the most part.
Mike
The Texans ranked 6th in the NFL in red zone efficiency according to these ProFootball Weekly stats.

link

Now how that breaks down for each QB, I don't know. If anyone does, please show a link.

Goodness knows what we could have done with a legit running attack. ...or fewer turnovers.
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Old 06-13-2008   #67
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I think you're letting a couple of bad plays in the red zone influence your opinion WAY too much. Early in the season, Matt had a couple of questionable throws. After he tried to force one against the Panthers, he got a little reticent and that hesitation look like it caused a turnover against the Colts (after Jacoby's great punt return.)

But overall, he could have been better and I expect him to be better but I think he was far from "abysmal."
And then in the Chargers game, Schaub threw back-to-back INTs (or it was at least on back-to-back drives) to the same guy because he was forcing the throw--The throws, IIRC, were nowhere near being a completion...with the second INT a very easy one which had no chance from the time the bal was snapped.

This was after Schaub, in the Panthers game, told Kubiak he "wouldn't do that again." After that sort of emphatic promise, you'd think he would have been less likely to throw one up for grabs (let alone two in a row).

People on this board are saying "Schaub's the man," and some are saying "Well, hold on a second..." and some are saying "Boy, I am sure glad we have Sage as a quality backup," and some are saying "He's a great stand-in, but he's had his chances" and so the jury is tilted toward Schaub thus far.

I haven't changed much on where I stand: "Who the HELL is our QB of tomorrow, because I see two backups trying to be the starter."

The stats are about the same (eerily close, actually) except for Sage being better in a category or two but Schaub being better in a different category or two than Sage (I am not going to research this out again, it's not worth the time). So...all we have left is that Schaub has "a better ceiling" and Sage has had his chances.

I just want somebody to solidify the role. And be a franchise QB. You don't see this issue on the Colts, or the Steelers, or the Chargers, or the Patriots, nor on several other teams. Those are teams that you KNOW who "the guy" is and that he's not endanger of being uprooted anytime soon.

Conversely, we're better off than the Bears--They seem to not even have ONE decent QB who can lead a team in even a somewhat decent fashion.

So, all I got is that I rambled on this topic and pretty much didn't get anywhere new with it. So, when does training camp start?...because I am bored like everyone else. Obviously.
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Old 06-13-2008   #68
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
The Texans ranked 6th in the NFL in red zone efficiency according to these ProFootball Weekly stats.

link

Now how that breaks down for each QB, I don't know. If anyone does, please show a link.

Goodness knows what we could have done with a legit running attack. ...or fewer turnovers.
I'll get you the link monday when I'm back at work. It was based just on completion percentage in the red zone. Since QB rating in the red zone is pretty much useless because it takes into account yards yards/reception it often becomes skewed very quickly.

Mike
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Old 06-13-2008   #69
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post
And then in the Chargers game, Schaub threw back-to-back INTs (or it was at least on back-to-back drives) to the same guy because he was forcing the throw--The throws, IIRC, were nowhere near being a completion...with the second INT a very easy one which had no chance from the time the bal was snapped.

This was after Schaub, in the Panthers game, told Kubiak he "wouldn't do that again." After that sort of emphatic promise, you'd think he would have been less likely to throw one up for grabs (let alone two in a row).
in schaub's defence, both of them were tipped passes.. i can only find slo-mo video of one but both of them were

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d803b007e
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Old 06-14-2008   #70
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

There are good arguments both pros and cons for Sage. Same goes for Schaub.

The thing that cannot be denied is that we have seen more (good things) out of them than in the previous year.

In Schaub's case, he had removed doubts about an unknown quality.

Therefore, I said they have both improved.
And as long as I see that, I would stay with them as our QBs, and believe that they can be at least a notch above the title "game manager", until they prove otherwise.

Take Carr for example, I gave him a lot of slack because we were a new franchise and were lacking skill players everywhere.
But when he start regressing after promising us than he won't make bad decision to throw into a crowd anymore, yet did exactly just that on the field. That's where it ends.

Right now, both Sage and Schaub are on the upward curb, despite what the numbers show.
Even great veteran QBs (not too old) have years when their numbers are down. But you can't say they have stopped improving.
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Old 06-14-2008   #71
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that Kubiak has Schaub starting and Sage backing up. I trust Kubiak enough with the QB's to make that decision and I'm fine with it.

If he ended up naming Sage Rosenfels as the starter for the Texans, I'd be shocked, but I wouldn't think that it was the worst decision in the world unless we started stringing together losses due to bad QB play. One thing for Kubiak, I don't think he's going to hang his hat on a terrible QB for more than 1 season. Luckily for us, we don't have a terrible QB at the 1 or the 2.
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Old 06-14-2008   #72
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

I would think that it should not be a set starter. Both will have to vie for the coveted position all year, keeping both of them hungry and on the competitive edge. Dunno if that is a viable option, but sounds smart to me.
I like Sage, I want to keep Sage happy. I need to see more of Schaub to convince myself he is not fragile...so this line of thought works for me.

Rip away...
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Old 06-14-2008   #73
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

Sage is a backup and nothing more Shaub is the starter and if they keep him from getting hurt he will put huge numbers.
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Old 06-14-2008   #74
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by FILO_girl View Post
I would think that it should not be a set starter. Both will have to vie for the coveted position all year, keeping both of them hungry and on the competitive edge. Dunno if that is a viable option, but sounds smart to me.
I like Sage, I want to keep Sage happy. I need to see more of Schaub to convince myself he is not fragile...so this line of thought works for me.

Rip away...

Why would you voluntarily play your second best QB for significant amounts of time?
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Old 06-14-2008   #75
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

Its a pet peeve of mine when people say Sage proved he is not a starter in Miami. He started only 2 games for them. 2 games is not enough of a sample size to determine a player's ability. Not to mention, Sage actually did have some success in Miami. In 2005 he entered a game with his team down 23-3. Sage stepped in and led them on a comeback, the Dolphins won that game 24-23.

What matters is what Sage has done in Houston. Every opportunity he's been given he has shown promise. I remember watching the preseason games back when DCarr was here, and it was obvious Sage was the better QB of the two. Still Carr got the starts while Sage looked on. Sage was brought to sub for Carr vs the Titans and of course he led another heroic comeback effort. Dude has stepped up every time. He has won games for us as a starter and as a backup. I do not tolerate hating on Sage because he has done everything you could ask and more.


Sage is a starting caliber QB. Rosenfels > Grossman, Smith, Jackson, Croyle, McCown. If they are good enough to start, there is no way that Sage is not good enough to start. But i reiterate, i am very happy we have him even in the backup role.
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Old 06-14-2008   #76
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

I think some people are still scarred understandably from the D.C. Era here in Houston, far as QBs are concerned.

No one makes a deal like they did for Schaub and then says ok prove you are starting material. If you have it in your head somewhere Sage is going to get a shot at starting in Houston you might as well find another backup QB in the league to cheer for. There is no way Kubiak and Smith make that deal unless they didn't feel Sage was a viable long term solution at QB.


Mr. PC :

Quote:
The 2003 Miami Dolphins were a hard team to pinpoint. The defense was again solid and forced a lot of turnovers, and opposing offenses found running the ball extremely difficult. However, poor offensive line play (despite most of the starters returning) gave little room for Ricky to run, and the offense was stagnant. The Dolphins began with a repeat of 2002's season end, with a complete meltdown against the Houston Texans, but they rebounded to win four straight games. During a crushing overtime loss at the hands of the Patriots, Jay Fiedler was injured, forcing newly acquired backup Brian Griese to lead the Dolphins to victory the next week over San Diego. That, however, was Griese's high point, and after a good showing against Indianapolis in a losing effort, he was lousy against the Titans and highly ineffective against the Ravens. When Griese and the Dolphins fell behind to the Washington Redskins, Jay Fiedler came off the bench and saved their season, leading them to a comeback victory, 24-23. Miami looked like it might rebound thanks to a victory over the Dallas Cowboys that took them to 8-4, but two key losses to the Patriots and the Eagles ended Miami's postseason hopes. Miami finished 10-6, but was still short of a playoff spot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Dolphins#2000s

Sage for president fans.

Last edited by Goldensilence; 06-14-2008 at 04:07 PM. Reason: Had to bold the the "meltdown" vs Houston
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Old 06-14-2008   #77
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by GP View Post

I haven't changed much on where I stand: "Who the HELL is our QB of tomorrow, because I see two backups trying to be the starter."
i just noticed this and had to comment because its plain wrong.. you really should watch other qb's play more.. we have two good qbs that are very capable of starting on alot of teams

imo schaub will be a franchise/top 10 qb if he can stay healthy. sage is similiar to schaub in that both are very smart and efficient but schaub adds a more vertical passing/big play element to the passing game... sage doesnt offer that as much imo and is more of a game manger (and a very good one at that- which you can win with- see the giants etc) sage would still be a good starter due to his smarts..

neither are 'backups' in their level of play
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Old 06-14-2008   #78
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Why would you voluntarily play your second best QB for significant amounts of time?
That is just it...we wouldn't have a designated second best. Whoever was the best player would be the starting QB.
They would be equals, whomever was the more dominant player would be the one who was playing. Keeps 'em hungry...Comprendez?
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Old 06-14-2008   #79
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Mr. PC :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Dolphins#2000s

Sage for president fans.
to clarify, i was referring to this game, which Miami won 24-23:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...ns-bills_x.htm
Quote:
Even in the late-afternoon shadows covering the end zone, Chris Chambers was easy to spot, leaping to make the reception that capped the best day of his NFL career and the Miami Dolphins' biggest comeback victory since 1974.

Chambers caught a lobbed 4-yard pass from Sage Rosenfels on fourth down with 6 seconds left, the last of three touchdowns Miami scored in the final 11:35 Sunday to beat the Buffalo Bills 24-23.

...

Struggling Miami quarterback Gus Frerotte was forced to the bench with a concussion in the third quarter, and Rosenfels directed fourth-quarter touchdown drives of 70, 49 and 73 yards.
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"We have a lot bigger package. I would say our package is probably twice as big as it was two years ago." - Sage Rosenfels, June 2008
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Old 06-14-2008   #80
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by FILO_girl View Post
That is just it...we wouldn't have a designated second best. Whoever was the best player would be the starting QB.
They would be equals, whomever was the more dominant player would be the one who was playing. Keeps 'em hungry...Comprendez?
I think there are many things wrong with that. You can't just say they're equals because you want them to be ! One of them is the better QB! To say they're equal just sounds like someone who's been to way too many new-age parenting classes, and just doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Even if the people in charge of the decision ultimately think it's Sage, you play your best players!

Should we give Andre Davis more playing time in order to keep AJ hungry? Think the Pats ought to get Cassel in the game more to make sure Brady doesn't rest on his laurels?

One of these guys is better (Schaub), determine which one (Schaub), and then let whoever that is (Schaub) be your QB.
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