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Old 06-13-2008   #41
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

Schaub & Sage are system QB's. their experience & proven NFL play make both viable starting material. I'm fine with not trading Sage for that 3rd pick to the Vikings, here you have a 100 million dollar franchise so you spend 2-3% on QB insurance. Boyd or Brink would have to step up in a big way to part ways with the Sage policy
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Old 06-13-2008   #42
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by SOLIS View Post
Yes he was. 2006 Tennessee Titans game - in Tennessee. Carr was benched in the third quarter. Mario sacked VY - the first meeting of the two - remember?
Yes that game but most of us are talking about the Titans game last year in 2007.

I'm with you though the faster we move away from the D.C era the better.
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Old 06-13-2008   #43
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
You are talking about a different game I believe. The 4 TD game by Sage was in relief of Schaub, not Sage.
Exactly - I'm not talking about last years game. I'm going back to two years ago, when Sage replaced a benched Carr. Anyway - yeah man, it's in the original post back a page.
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Old 06-13-2008   #44
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Goldensilence View Post
Yes that game but most of us are talking about the Titans game last year in 2007.

I'm with you though the faster we move away from the D.C era the better.
Yeah but, I was responding to Mike's/Carr Bomb's responses to my original post - which was about the 06 game. My contention was: that game in 06 was the first time I thought that Sage could be a starting quarterback in this league. Not to say that I'd rather have Rosenfels over Schaub, but I think the dude has the chops to be a starting QB, in the right system.
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Old 06-13-2008   #45
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
If you define "NFL starter" as being one of the 32 best QB's in the NFL, then I strongly believe Sage qualifies. That said, nobody gets excited about having the 27th best QB in the league. If you define it as having the capability of taking a team to a Super Bowl title, than probably not. (Please note that not actually winning a Super Bowl doesn't mean someone didn't have the capability to do it as with Moon, Marino, and Fouts to name three.)

Schaub may or may not have that capability. We really haven't had the opportunity to find out yet. One partial year gives us some cause for concern and some cause for optimism, but no answers yet.

Right now, I believe Sage's true value lies in being an insurance policy while we find out more about Schaub, but I believe the answer at QB for the Texans is either Schaub, or is not currently on the roster.
Ok. Let me define my position further then. I want a starter who has the ability to lead a quality team to the SB win. Note I said LEAD. Moon Fouts and Marino all had the talent. Moon, Marino and Fouts were all capable of taking a team to the top, they just didn't have the supporting cast or they had something go DRASTICALLY wrong (buddy ryan going into a prevent defense with 12 mins left int he THIRD quarter for example). The talent in this league is so watered down right now that you're right he is one of the 32 best QBs in the league. But he's not a QUALITY starter. I think you and I are pretty much in agreement there. He is somewhere between the 25th and 32nd best qb in the league right now, which really says more about the talent (or lack there of) in the league than it does his ability to come in and start.

As for Schaub, you're exactly right. Thus far we don't know if he can be a starter in this league. We've seen flashes. All indications are he can. He and Sage didn't perform that differently last year but the difference and what puts Schaub ahead of Sage in my book is that Schaub hasn't had the chance to prove he's not a starter. Schaub had flashes of brilliance and flashes of DC in him last year. I expect that from a 3rd year player on a new team with a new system. I don't expect that from a 6th or 7th year starter who's been on the team 2 years and played a decent amount. Its a wait and see game, and the Texans know that.

To sum it up. Sage could start for a handful of teams in this league. If he did, they would still be bottom feeders. Schaub has shown flashes of brilliance. He has shown flashes of disaster. We need to find out with Schaub and either commit to him as the starter for the future, or figure out he's not what we thought he was and move on. FTR I think he's what we thought he was.

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Old 06-13-2008   #46
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by SOLIS View Post
Yeah but, I was responding to Mike's/Carr Bomb's responses to my original post - which was about the 06 game. My contention was: that game in 06 was the first time I thought that Sage could be a starting quarterback in this league. Not to say that I'd rather have Rosenfels over Schaub, but I think the dude has the chops to be a starting QB, in the right system.
My mistake. I saw Sage, and Texans and didn't see the year. Then again if that's the first time you thought he could be a successful start in this league, hopefully it was followed shortly afterwards with a smack of reality.

Mike
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Old 06-13-2008   #47
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
...Schaub has shown flashes of brilliance. He has shown flashes of disaster...
Where were the flashes of disaster? Matt had a bad game in San Diego. As did everyone else. He had a bad 1st half here vs. the Titans. As did everyone else. I don't remember thinking "Matt's a disaster" during either game.

Matt has some questions to answer regarding staying on the field. But when he and the rest of the offense were healthy, Schaub has proven he can get the job done.
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Old 06-13-2008   #48
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Where were the flashes of disaster? Matt had a bad game in San Diego. As did everyone else. He had a bad 1st half here vs. the Titans. As did everyone else. I don't remember thinking "Matt's a disaster" during either game.

Matt has some questions to answer regarding staying on the field. But when he and the rest of the offense were healthy, Schaub has proven he can get the job done.
To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.

This is coming from a guy who was lobying for him well before there were any reports saying we were actually interested in him. I'm one of his biggest supporters and have been since day -100 but he has looked lost in the red zone for the most part.
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Old 06-13-2008   #49
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.

This is coming from a guy who was lobying for him well before there were any reports saying we were actually interested in him. I'm one of his biggest supporters and have been since day -100 but he has looked lost in the red zone for the most part.
Mike
Not to play the excuse game here, but we didn't really have an NFL calibre running game at the time either. There were a few games we were unable to punch it in the endzone in 3 plays as well as being unable to get a yard on 4th down.

IMO, ridding ourselves of Dayne and adding Gibbs alone will allow the passing game to open up for more opportunities in the Redzone.

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Old 06-13-2008   #50
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
My mistake. I saw Sage, and Texans and didn't see the year. Then again if that's the first time you thought he could be a successful start in this league, hopefully it was followed shortly afterwards with a smack of reality.

Mike
Not a problem. Let's just put it this way - it was at that point I thought Sage was the better option than Carr. You can continue hating on Sage all you want, it won't hurt my feelings, however, I don't think a team with Sage at the helm is an automatic bottom feeder. On a team with a good defense and running game, I think Sage is capable enough to lead a contender.
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Old 06-13-2008   #51
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

IMO the potential for 'disaster' with Schaub is his ability to stay healthy, not his ability. We invested two 2nd's, a fat contract, and several years that are very important to the growth of the franchise into this kid. If he can't stay healthy, as with any player who can't stay healthy, it's a bust for the team. Now, I still have hope and believe that as our running game and line play improve, he'll get hit less and stay healthy. On the other hand, I'll be holding my breath next year because Schaub was seemingly dinged up basically all year last season with one injury or another, culminating in his should injury.

Despite great potential, a player can only help you if they can stay on the field, and until Schaub can prove that he's capable of that I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.
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Old 06-13-2008   #52
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by SOLIS View Post
Not a problem. Let's just put it this way - it was at that point I thought Sage was the better option than Carr. You can continue hating on Sage all you want, it won't hurt my feelings, however, I don't think a team with Sage at the helm is an automatic bottom feeder. On a team with a good defense and running game, I think Sage is capable enough to lead a contender.
Au contrair. The best backup is the one who is trying to prove he's a starter. I think he's a GREAT backup. I think he can fill in for a game or two and do a very good job. I just don't like him long term. I don't think however that he could LEAD a contenter. He might be able to go along for the ride with a top notch defense and an excellent running game. But that's the difference between a game manager and a game maker.

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Old 06-13-2008   #53
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Fox View Post
IMO the potential for 'disaster' with Schaub is his ability to stay healthy, not his ability. We invested two 2nd's, a fat contract, and several years that are very important to the growth of the franchise into this kid. If he can't stay healthy, as with any player who can't stay healthy, it's a bust for the team. Now, I still have hope and believe that as our running game and line play improve, he'll get hit less and stay healthy. On the other hand, I'll be holding my breath next year because Schaub was seemingly dinged up basically all year last season with one injury or another, culminating in his should injury.

Despite great potential, a player can only help you if they can stay on the field, and until Schaub can prove that he's capable of that I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.
I don't know if you remember us in the redzone with Schaub in the game but we were very very shaky. Its understandable, especially with a new team and system etc. The field shrinks and time becomes more and more crucial. And I didn't say I don't think he can get it fixed. Just that it doesn't matter what you do in the first 80 yards of the field, for the most part its that last 20 that determines how many games you win. We can't go Lee Evans on everyone every game.

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Old 06-13-2008   #54
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.
What's your definition of abysmal?

Let's compare to someone most would say is pretty good--you can guess who:

Redzone passing

47 comp. 84 att. 56.0% comp. 3.60 ypa 18 TD's (21%) 3 INT's (3.5%) 88.4 QB rating.

Schaub

16 comp. 30 att. 53.3% comp. 4.13 ypa 5 (16.7%) 1 INT (3.3%) 89.4 QB rating.

I am not seeing the stark difference here that makes Schaub abysmal in the redzone.
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Old 06-13-2008   #55
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
To this point, Matt has been abysmial in the red zone.
From a thread titled Red zone stats, posted on 12-15-07:

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Matt in RZ with AJ: 66.7% - 4 TD - 0 INT - 122.5 QBR
Sage in RZ with AJ: 80.0% - 3 TD - 0 INT - 125.8 QBR

Stats include a spike by Matt in RZ to stop clock. Doesn't include a red zone fumble by Sage in TB game, or the rushing TD Sage had in Broncos game.
The entire offense struggled in the red zone, without Andre Johnson. And much of that time the Texans had the rushing threats of Dayne, Gado, and Echiwhatwashisname. Let's not be so quick to judge the Texans performance in the red zone, or Schaub's work in particular.
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Old 06-13-2008   #56
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Originally Posted by Texanmike View Post
I don't know if you remember us in the redzone with Schaub in the game but we were very very shaky. Its understandable, especially with a new team and system etc. The field shrinks and time becomes more and more crucial. And I didn't say I don't think he can get it fixed. Just that it doesn't matter what you do in the first 80 yards of the field, for the most part its that last 20 that determines how many games you win. We can't go Lee Evans on everyone every game.

Mike
I think you're letting a couple of bad plays in the red zone influence your opinion WAY too much. Early in the season, Matt had a couple of questionable throws. After he tried to force one against the Panthers, he got a little reticent and that hesitation look like it caused a turnover against the Colts (after Jacoby's great punt return.)

But overall, he could have been better and I expect him to be better but I think he was far from "abysmal."
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Old 06-13-2008   #57
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

I was a little bored...

Craig Morton led his third team, the Broncos to the SB in 1978,
his 15th year in the league. In the previous 3 years, his TD/INT ratio was 29/49. He was pretty good with the Cowboys before Staubach took over.
Many people thought Morton was done. But in the end, he wound up playing seven more years then Staubach.

Vince Ferragamo ratio was 7/12 the previous 3 years as a backup, but took the LA Rams to the SB in 1980.
He was 69-145 and less than a thousand yard passing in those 3 years.
A 4th round draft pick.

Jim Plunkett became the starter of the Raiders in the 6th week, then promptly went on to win the SB for them in 1981.
His passer rating in the previous 8 years never touch 70.
Plunket was a #1 pick, called "best pro quarterback prospect ever" by some, was ROY, but injuries marred the following years of his career, the next four with the Pats never having a winning record. He was traded to SF where he spent 2 ho-hum years and was released. The Raiders picked him up, the first 2 years he attempted a total of 15 passes. Then came that 3rd year.

In his second year (1981), David Woodley was splitting time with backup Don Strock in Miami.
In a playoff game against the Chargers, Woodley started and the Dolphins fell behind 0-24. Strock came in and made the game a thriller, a 38-41 OT loss.
The next year, the strike shorten season 1982 saw Woodley playing in 9 games, 1080 yd passing, a 5/8 TD/INT ratio, and a 63.5 rating. Yet he took them to the SB in Jan 83. He was an 8th round draft pick.

Jeff Hostetler was a fifth year backup for the Giants with a total of 109 pass attempts, until the 15th game of the season when he took over for an injured Phil Simms. NY went on to win the last 2 games en route to a SB victory over the Bills. He was a 3rd round draft pick.
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Old 06-13-2008   #58
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

Well I'd say the fact that he ranked 20th in completion % inside the RZ is pretty bad. Coincidently (and surprising to me) Sage finished 1st in the NFL. Other guys who were close to Schaub, McCown, VY,Pennington,Boller.

The other thing I would point out, is the fact that Schaub had 3 bad games in the red zone. You are correct. But that's out of only 11 games. And really he only played a significant ammount of time in 9 of them. If I replace abysmal with poor, or questionable or sub-elite does that sound better?

No doubt it was a failure as a team. And having AJ not there didn't help. But it was what it was. Like I said, I think he'll get it straightened out. But as of now I'll start using the word suspect.


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Old 06-13-2008   #59
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

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Well I'd say the fact that he ranked 20th in completion % inside the RZ is pretty bad.
Where did you get that stat? The unknown QB above with a 2.7% better completion % in the RZ is Peyton Manning.
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Old 06-13-2008   #60
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Default Re: Sage want a chance to be a starter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
I was a little bored...

Craig Morton led his third team, the Broncos to the SB in 1978,
his 15th year in the league. In the previous 3 years, his TD/INT ratio was 29/49. He was pretty good with the Cowboys before Staubach took over.
Many people thought Morton was done. But in the end, he wound up playing seven more years then Staubach.

Vince Ferragamo ratio was 7/12 the previous 3 years as a backup, but took the LA Rams to the SB in 1980.
He was 69-145 and less than a thousand yard passing in those 3 years.
A 4th round draft pick.

Jim Plunkett became the starter of the Raiders in the 6th week, then promptly went on to win the SB for them in 1981.
His passer rating in the previous 8 years never touch 70.
Plunket was a #1 pick, called "best pro quarterback prospect ever" by some, was ROY, but injuries marred the following years of his career, the next four with the Pats never having a winning record. He was traded to SF where he spent 2 ho-hum years and was released. The Raiders picked him up, the first 2 years he attempted a total of 15 passes. Then came that 3rd year.

In his second year (1981), David Woodley was splitting time with backup Don Strock in Miami.
In a playoff game against the Chargers, Woodley started and the Dolphins fell behind 0-24. Strock came in and made the game a thriller, a 38-41 OT loss.
The next year, the strike shorten season 1982 saw Woodley playing in 9 games, 1080 yd passing, a 5/8 TD/INT ratio, and a 63.5 rating. Yet he took them to the SB in Jan 83. He was an 8th round draft pick.

Jeff Hostetler was a fifth year backup for the Giants with a total of 109 pass attempts, until the 15th game of the season when he took over for an injured Phil Simms. NY went on to win the last 2 games en route to a SB victory over the Bills. He was a 3rd round draft pick.

I'm assuming you're looking at backup to starter late bloomers. I guess that could be Sage. But to assume that he is the statistical anomoly is a stretch. Like I said, there's more Commander Cody than anything in him if you ask me. And that's not a bad thing. Carlson filled in very admirably for Moon on several occasions.

Mike
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