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Old 06-12-2008   #21
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
-Most of the time the QB will be faking the run one way and then rolling out to the other.

-If they are run faking to the right everyone will be initially stepping to the right.

-If the TE stays in to block instead of going out on a route he'll probably be helping out with the DE rather than being responsible for him.


In this scheme you really can't say who is responsible for who because defenders are not simulated beings. They move and in the ZBS you don't really chase defenders. If a D-lineman stunts or slants or the defense does some kind of blitz, the linemen's steps and technique should allow the puzzle pieces to fall in place.

It's kinda hard to explain, but not really....
I have already stated that the shorter routes can be run out of a "disguised" run off the ZBS.

Anything from a quick dump pass to the flat, a screen pass, a QB roll out with one WR running a timing pattern, a naked bootleg (which can lead to a long pass play), etc.

The only thing I'm discussing here is the drop back pass.
All the defenders that anyone of our O-lineman met just happen to be in the flow of the blocking train. And if they "bite" the run fake, there shouldn't be any defensive stunting to speak of.
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Old 06-12-2008   #22
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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I have already stated that the shorter routes can be run out of a "disguised" run off the ZBS.

Anything from a quick dump pass to the flat, a screen pass, a QB roll out with one WR running a timing pattern, a naked bootleg (which can lead to a long pass play), etc.

The only thing I'm discussing here is the drop back pass.
All the defenders that anyone of our O-lineman met just happen to be in the flow of the blocking train. And if they "bite" the run fake, there shouldn't be any defensive stunting to speak of.

Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post...

A stunt is done immediately at the snap of the ball...

Whether it's run or pass really has nothing to do with it...

When defenders stunt they aren't really reading...They are just attacking gaps trying to get penetration...
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Old 06-13-2008   #23
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post...

A stunt is done immediately at the snap of the ball...

Whether it's run or pass really has nothing to do with it...

When defenders stunt they aren't really reading...They are just attacking gaps trying to get penetration...
If you do not read how do you know where the gaps will be?
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Old 06-13-2008   #24
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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If you do not read how do you know where the gaps will be?
You don't know where actual open areas will be.



When I say gaps I am talking about "A gap" "B gap"..... Or numbered holes....


When defenders stunt they attack areas/gaps....

*that doesn't mean that if they see something they are not going to react, but making the correct read is not the same thing as simply reacting...
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Old 06-13-2008   #25
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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Originally Posted by Polo View Post
Honestly I have no idea what you are trying to say in this post...

A stunt is done immediately at the snap of the ball...

Whether it's run or pass really has nothing to do with it...

When defenders stunt they aren't really reading...They are just attacking gaps trying to get penetration...
I've never disregarded the stunt. I specifically mentioned that sometimes the defense dictates itself, that means they have decided to do certain thing regardless whether it's a pass or running play.

When they stunt, it was simply an exchange of positions of D-linemen.
Wherever they decide to penetrate they will still be met by a blocker in that train.
The same principle applies.

They key point is how to take care of the guy attacking the C gap (outside the LT).
That guy can be a DE or in case of a stunt, a DT.

There might be a LB or Safety coming on from that side as well.

For visual aid, I suggest that you review the two plays:
1. Mario sacked Cutler
2. Finnegan sacked MS
Both times were drop pass with the defender acctacking the C gap.
(In these instances, the blind side of a Right-handed QB).
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Old 06-13-2008   #26
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

And of course, this is based on a 4-3 defense.
But the same principle applies if theres a 3-4 defense instead.
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Old 06-13-2008   #27
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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I've never disregarded the stunt. I specifically mentioned that sometimes the defense dictates itself, that means they have decided to do certain thing regardless whether it's a pass or running play.

When they stunt, it was simply an exchange of positions of D-linemen.
That's not completely accurate...

Stunts don't always involve D-linemen....most of them will, but LB's are often involved in stunts...







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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post

1. I would assume that the flow of the O-linemen more often will be to the weak side (the left), so that our TE on the strong side (the opposite side) can pick up the LDE. If we have the FB in there, he could help, or he could take on any extra defender close to the LOS on the strong side.
Quote:
They key point is how to take care of the guy attacking the C gap (outside the LT).
These two statements are confusing in my mind....You go from talking about containing the DE on the strongside to worrying about the DE on the backside...

The O-line is going to "flow" to whatever direction the fake is in...How the defense is lined up does not determine which way the linemen are going to go in a ZBS...


I still am lost as to what you are saying....

I don't need to review any plays because I have a perect visual in my head of how the ZBS works...I'm not the guru that Alex Gibbs or anyone else that has been involved in it for years is, but I do know how it's supposed to be blocked...I played in a ZBS for 6 years counting highschool and college...

I know that different football people use differnt terminology and I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here because it's not making sense to me...

When you say "drop pass" are you talking about a str8 drop back/no roll out ?

Just because a QB makes a playfake doesn't mean that it being blocked like a ZBS run play would be....

Honestly the only kind of ZBS play that the lineman are going to fake when you pass is the stretch...

Every other play action pass (besides a few special ones like the flea flicker) will be pretty generic in how it's blocked up front....
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Old 06-13-2008   #28
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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And of course, this is based on a 4-3 defense.
But the same principle applies if theres a 3-4 defense instead.
The principles aren't the same....3-4 vs 4-3 completely changes your reads and what you're looking for...
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Old 06-13-2008   #29
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

Let start from the beginning, K!

Specifics:
1. Straight drop back pass.
2. I mentioned several areas that need protection, but key on the most dangerous one: The C gap, specifically when the Offensive line flow is to the right, thus leaving the gap wide open.
3. It involves a run fake to the right.
(We're talking about the ZBS scheme looking the same whether pass or run.)

The Broncos tried this exact same play the last time they were at Reliant.
They ran the ZBS and fake a run to the right.
Mario was left open and he shot through the C gap to sack Cutler and put him squarely on his back.

That is the danger I don't want to see MS or Sage go through.

The principles apply whether it's a 3-4 or 4-3, wherether the LB(s) stunt or blitz. If one LB comes up in the 3-4, he is simply regarded as another lineman for all intended purposes.
If 2 LBs come up, see my mentioning "extra defender".
We don't have to leave the main topic to get involve in a year long discussion.
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Old 06-13-2008   #30
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

I still don't understand what you're saying, but.....

que sera sera...
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Old 06-18-2008   #31
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Let start from the beginning, K!

Specifics:
1. Straight drop back pass.
2. I mentioned several areas that need protection, but key on the most dangerous one: The C gap, specifically when the Offensive line flow is to the right, thus leaving the gap wide open.
3. It involves a run fake to the right.
(We're talking about the ZBS scheme looking the same whether pass or run.)

The Broncos tried this exact same play the last time they were at Reliant.
They ran the ZBS and fake a run to the right.
Mario was left open and he shot through the C gap to sack Cutler and put him squarely on his back.

That is the danger I don't want to see MS or Sage go through.

The principles apply whether it's a 3-4 or 4-3, wherether the LB(s) stunt or blitz. If one LB comes up in the 3-4, he is simply regarded as another lineman for all intended purposes.
If 2 LBs come up, see my mentioning "extra defender".
We don't have to leave the main topic to get involve in a year long discussion.
Let's just hope that Schaub/Sage are as smart as you are, and have an eye on that "free" pass rusher, and throws it away.
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Old 06-19-2008   #32
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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Let's just hope that Schaub/Sage are as smart as you are, and have an eye on that "free" pass rusher, and throws it away.
Schaub's 1st TD to AJ against the Panthers. He knew there was going to be a free rusher but also knew he'd have time to get it to AJ. He took the hit and got the ball to AJ. That was a beauty of a play.
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Old 06-19-2008   #33
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

Oh, there's no problem with optioning a certain defender in certain situations. And surely the QBs were well drilled to make the correct decision. But in the heat of competition, we've seen that sometimes things don't turn out as planned. I'll come back with some illustration later.

That particular play you brought up, PN, falls into "the other category" that I had mentioned (quick timing pattern).

All the D-linemen were accounted for.

The LB who came up was Schaub's responsibility.
He came up on the playside where it's easier to check.

It was a short timing pattern:
Schaub let go of the ball in about one second, just a hair over.
AJ was less than 5 yards past the LOS.
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Old 06-19-2008   #34
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

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Originally Posted by 76Texan View Post
Oh, there's no problem with optioning a certain defender in certain situations. And surely the QBs were well drilled to make the correct decision. But in the heat of competition, we've seen that sometimes things don't turn out as planned. I'll come back with some illustration later.

That particular play you brought up, PN, falls into "the other category" that I had mentioned (quick timing pattern).

All the D-linemen were accounted for.

The LB who came up was Schaub's responsibility.
He came up on the playside where it's easier to check.

It was a short timing pattern:
Schaub let go of the ball in about one second, just a hair over.
AJ was less than 5 yards past the LOS.
So ingenius play design is another option.....

I hope Shanahan and Kubiak are taking notes.
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Old 06-19-2008   #35
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Default Re: DeMeco Chat

Ya know, TK, I believed it was during the Broncos/Colts game that I heard the commentator talk about how smart Cutler is. He has to digest a new playbook by Shanahan each week, and it's something like 186 pages. That Shanahan has well over a thousand plays... That Cutler has a strong arm... Accurate... Exceptional mobility... When he led his HS team to the state championship, he played both ways. I would assume that it was MLB, 'cause the guy made 19 tackles. Quite a feat.

So much for the introduction.
Now comes reality.
Broncos @ Texans again.
1st qtr 7:56 mark, 2nd and 9
Broncos in standard Power I formation.
2 wide outs. TE on the right.
C,QB,FB,RB all in a column.

Texans in 4-3.
They walk the LB (Anderson) up the weak side and show blitz.

Broncos ran the ZBS fake to the strong side with the RB.

That left Anderson one on one with Cutler who dropped back about 7 yards. Anderson was right in his face as Cutler desperately tried to make a throw across his body while backpedaling.
The FB sprang to the left, Demeco was right on him. Demeco had a hand on the ball and Cutler was on the floor.

Here's the exchange between the play by play guy and the commentator:

here's some pressure and knocked down and almost picked off it goes incomplete.

Yeah and what happens when you're a young QB, you do stupid things just like that, I mean.
You can't do this. Jay Cutler saw the pressure coming, just lob it up in the air. Really fortunate it wasn't intercepted right there. You just either take it (and run) or throw it all the way out of bound in that situation or take the sack, but that shoulda been picked.

...
Ya know, over a thousand plays in the book.
Your team is not going anywhere this season.
Why risk injury to your franchise QB on a 2nd or 3rd and long situation where you know the D will be coming.

The risk/reward is just not there, IMHO.
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