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Old 05-18-2008   #41
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TheRealJoker View Post
So now possession WRs can be # 1 WRs?

Checkmate.
Checkmate?

How do you get Cris Carter's 8 straight 1000+ yard seasons and 6 straight double digit TD's confused with Kevin Walter's 800 yards and 4 TD's?

Just admit you were wrong so we can move on.
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Old 05-18-2008   #42
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
Ed McCafferey had wheels on him and could run and break one loose. There is no comparison between the two. How come the white WR's always get compared to one another?

Let's see, McCaffrey played the same position in the same offense that Walter currently plays. McCaffrey's OC is Walter's current HC, and that OC/HC was the first to make the comparison.

But mostly, I guess it's because they're both white.
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Old 05-18-2008   #43
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
Checkmate?

How do you get Cris Carter's 8 straight 1000+ yard seasons and 6 straight double digit TD's confused with Kevin Walter's 800 yards and 4 TD's?

Just admit you were wrong so we can move on.
Your breakdown of Carter is just further proving your initial hypothesis, "Possession WRs shouldn't be # 2s" is wrong. If Carter can be a # 1 much less a # 2 according to you then I take it you have admitted that you were wrong and are willing to move on provided I give you an out to save face so you dont lose any E-Cred after this thread has run its course.

Well its not going to be that simple, just admit you were wrong so we can move on.
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Old 05-18-2008   #44
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

Saying possession guys can't be #2s is a losing argument, IMO.

There are many, many examples to show how this is a bad argument. Some have already been made, and I am sure if people have time they will post even more.

Kevin Walter had a good season last year. It's his first year with significant play time and he responding great IMO. He led the team in receptions with 65. He works great with Andre Davis. They can sub in for each other on 2 WR sets and I trust both of them to play the #2 position. In 3 WR sets they are interchangeable.

I don't understand the sharp criticism of Jacoby Jones. He was a small school prospect that most people KNEW was going to need some time to adjust and so forth. He gets injured last year, doesn't live up to his great pre-season, and people are talking about him like he is pretty much useless. I thought he did well for being injured and being a small school rookie, especially at WR where rookies struggle consistently year after year.

Give the guy a couple more seasons and see what kind of receiver he grows into. He doesn't HAVE to be a key part of the offense this year, so there isn't too much pressure on him. He is in a good situation IMO.

We may not have alot of STAR power at WR outside of Andre Johnson, but we have guys who stepped up last year in this system and showed they can play well. The young guys, David Anderson and Jacoby Jones, both proved they can atleast be somewhat productive. They just need to grow on their seasons last year.

People are confusing star power and production IMO. Our WRs aren't the problem on our offense. We actually had a pretty good passing attack considering our running game was borderline terrible.

This is just WRs. TEs like Daniels and Dreessen give us additional targets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texans_Chick View Post
Last year, at about this time, Texans MB were dying over who the Texans can acquire to be a #2 receiver, and that was a big issue going into last season.
This is true, but who expected Kevin Walter to step up and have 65 receptions with 800 receiving yards and 4 TDs? I think Kubiak and a few other Texan coaches were the only people who thought it was possible.

On top of that Andre Davis had a career year. Most people thought he was a washed up receiver who wouldn't see much production here in Houston.


Last edited by TexansSeminole; 05-18-2008 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 05-18-2008   #45
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TheRealJoker View Post
Your breakdown of Carter is just further proving your initial hypothesis, "Possession WRs shouldn't be # 2s" is wrong. If Carter can be a # 1 much less a # 2 according to you then I take it you have admitted that you were wrong and are willing to move on provided I give you an out to save face so you dont lose any E-Cred after this thread has run its course.

Well its not going to be that simple, just admit you were wrong so we can move on.
When did I say possession receivers couldn't be #2's? I was breaking down Walter specifically as being a #2 and stating that we as a team should get more production from the #2 position.

Comparing Walter to Carter is like comparing Bradford to Moss.

If your not going to admit your wrong at least admit that you misinterpreted what I wrote. Or just say Dude your right so I can copy it to my signature.
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Old 05-18-2008   #46
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
A possession receiver should not be your #2 guy.
Just sayin', not trying to argue.
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Old 05-18-2008   #47
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

....Keyshawn.

This should be a telling year for Walter. In the 11 games he played with AJ, his production projected to 35 catches for about 400 yds over a 16 game season, more in line with a no. 3. In the 7 games AJ was out, his numbers projected to 94 catches for over 1200 yards, worthy of a no. 1. I think that disparity is a combination of things - Not passing as much and Schaub being dialed into AJ those first two games, getting blown out in several of the games with AJ out, and probably Walter improving as a receiver over the course of the season.

Things in his favor:
-Probably gained a lot of confidence
-The guy can get separation
-Schaub probably has more confidence in him and may spread the ball around more

Things against him
-Running game will be emphasized more
-Hopefully we'll be ahead more late in games
-Daniels and the RBs will likely figure heavily in the passing game
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Old 05-18-2008   #48
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by Goldensilence View Post
He's trying to see if scouts think this year's current backups could beat out the '04 starters.

Dunno what who these scouts are but they can't be that good if they can't pick up on the fact that this year's receiving corps is head and shoulders above '04. I'm wondering if Dressen has the backup this year over Bruener. DD was a solid starter but taking into account the backups behind him and who we have now I'll take this year's backups too.

I would take this years backups over the starting oline in 04.

The only place I think there would be a push at is Linebacker and Dline respectively.

I think Jerome needs a second opinion from different scouts.
WOW!!! Even a "maybe" push between any aspect of this years team and ANY from the DC regime seems almost ludicrous to me. The closest I could come to would be our safeties. Other than that, '08 Texans slobberknocker the '02-'05 Texans. Mario, Okoye, Ryans and Greenwood are enough to offset the entire Dline and LB corps of the previous teams.
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Old 05-18-2008   #49
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by Rex King View Post
Things against him
-Running game will be emphasized more
Not sure that this is something that is against him. I think a more successful running game, and thus a running game that is more emphasized, is a benefit to the passing game.

Unpredictability is a pretty big asset of any NFL offense.
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Old 05-18-2008   #50
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
Not sure that this is something that is against him. I think a more successful running game, and thus a running game that is more emphasized, is a benefit to the passing game.

Unpredictability is a pretty big asset of any NFL offense.
I was going to put that in both pro and con, but if Kubiak follows the Bill Walsh West Coast philosophy, he's going to pass in order to open up the running game and not the other way around. He's professed that's what he wants to do, but got away from it because of how putrid the ground game remained. So I'm thinking they'll pass less often, and there will be fewer plays to go around. AJ will get his. But hopefully that safety cheatin' down will allow for bigger gains.
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Old 05-18-2008   #51
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
Just sayin', not trying to argue.
I am sorry, I am doing a poor job of representing my point.

Kevin Walter should not be our #2. He lacks speed and athleticism. I knew what I ment.
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Old 05-18-2008   #52
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by Rex King View Post
I was going to put that in both pro and con, but if Kubiak follows the Bill Walsh West Coast philosophy, he's going to pass in order to open up the running game and not the other way around. He's professed that's what he wants to do, but got away from it because of how putrid the ground game remained. So I'm thinking they'll pass less often, and there will be fewer plays to go around. AJ will get his. But hopefully that safety cheatin' down will allow for bigger gains.
Speaking of Bill Walsh and the West Coast Offense. Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Tom Rathman, and Roger Craig were burners weren't they?

TEXANRED - Nope Walter isn't your proto-typical #2 still did a pretty damn good job last year when it counted.
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Old 05-18-2008   #53
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
Walter - (No S? guess you can learn me something.) 15 games started 800 yards and 4 TD's. Really? Thats it? Shouldn't he be more productive with AJ gone for 7 games? Isn't your #2 receiver supposed to be the second best receiver on the team? Only 4 TD's?
I just went through every team's receiving stats for last year, and only a small handful of #2 wideouts outperformed Walter last season.

Defining who is #1 or #2 is, of course, tricky (and ceremonial). For the most part, I simply took the WR with the second-best receiving stats. I set no definite standard for what constituted "outperforming" Walter's numbers. I took an "I know it when I see it" approach.

In any event, the #2 WRs who unquestionably had better years than Walter (65-800-4) were:

1. Wes Welker (112-1175-8): great player but benefitted from history's greatest passing game.

2. T.J. Houshmandzadeh (112-1143-12): clearly one of the best #2 WRs in the business (assuming he should be considered Cincy's #2, some debate that now).

3. Greg Jennings (79-943-12): is probably The Man in Green Bay going forward.

4. Anquan Boldin (71-853-9): another clearly-elite #2 guy. But do you want as much cap space eaten by WRs as the Cardinals have?

5. Santonio Holmes (52-942-8): stats were better than Hines Ward's, but Ward is the Steeler's acknowledged #1. Walter outgained Ward last season, by the way.

6. Shaun McDonald (79-943-6): the shocker to me, but Detroit's running game was even more putrid than ours.

But that's it. (And, no, Reggie Wayne has not been Peyton's #2 WR for quite some time.) Everyone else's second-best WR had numbers either in the vicinity of Walter's (though I think nobody else outgained him) or significantly less than his. Going by the stats--which you invoked--Walter was in the second tier behind the acknowledged elite of guys like Welker, Housh, Bolding and Holmes.

(Note well: it is late in the evening, so I admit that I may have missed someone.)
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Old 05-19-2008   #54
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
The Texans last year threw for 3751 passing yards. That is a pretty good number. I agree with that. Lets look to see how our WR core contributed to that number.
i think your figure takes sacks into account.. i think the actual passing figure is 3,925
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Old 05-19-2008   #55
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

Wow, I am amazed!

Not counting me (because I haven't stooped to read his tripe for just about a year now), there are 26 people that have responded to an article that is not worth reading.


There must be half of the Queen's readership that posts on Texans Talk!!

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Old 05-19-2008   #56
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Default Re: Jerome Solomon's article...

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Originally Posted by TEXANRED View Post
Nice, I have an opinion that may not be kissing the Texans ass and all of a sudden I am telling Kubiak he doesnt know what he is doing.

I have been screaming since last year that our core is average at best and filled with a bunch of #3's.

Let them prove me wrong. We are not very athletic at the WR position outside of AJ. Can you retort otherwise? Is there something that you have seen that I have missed?
lol

It's not as if we don't have the personell to play someone else at the #2 spot than Walter. We could play a speedy reciever in Davis who was also productive last season. But, Kubiak obviously feels that possesion recievers, Walter in this instance, are, in fact, #2 recievers.

I'm not questioning your ability to have a dissenting opinion. I'm certainly no stranger to that. I'm questioning the idea that you somehow have a better grasp on what personell is fit to play what role than someone with decades of NFL experience.
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