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Old 05-02-2008   #381
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Default Re: Duane Brown = Texans' First Round Choice

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Originally Posted by LZ View Post
What does where a player goes have to do with how he is going to do?
I just watched a show on the NFL network and the class of 1993 had 41 Pro Bowl players in it. I saw a graphic that showed that most years there were around 30 or so Pro Bowlers in every draft class...and these Pro Bowl players are in every round of the draft as well as in the undrafted FA market also. People get too caught on on draft slotting.
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Old 05-02-2008   #382
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Default Re: Duane Brown = Texans' First Round Choice

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Originally Posted by Vinny View Post
I just watched a show on the NFL network and the class of 1993 had 41 Pro Bowl players in it. I saw a graphic that showed that most years there were around 30 or so Pro Bowlers in every draft class...and these Pro Bowl players are in every round of the draft as well as in the undrafted FA market also. People get too caught on on draft slotting.

1983.
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Old 05-02-2008   #383
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Default Re: Duane Brown = Texans' First Round Choice

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Originally Posted by LZ View Post
What does where a player goes have to do with how he is going to do? I'm sure everyone remembers that super-cool move the Cavs pulled off when they shocked everyone by drafting Tradgon Langdon with a lottery pick in the NBA draft. Nobody saw that coming but that ended up being a great pick..... wait...... no, it wasn't.

I think Brown went early but I've covered the entire topic on my blog. However, you can discount people's opinion all you want but John Harris also pointed out how Alex Gibbs 1st round tackle, George Foster, has been a bust and was even dealt from Denver. I trust in Alex Gibbs the coach but I have seen many a quality coach fail in the area of evaluation. Do we not remember Dom Capers - one of the most respected 3-4 defensive minds in history? He felt like the Texans needed Travis Johnson, had to re-sign Gary Walker and must move up for Jason Babin. Coaching and evaluation are often mutually exclusive. That's all I'm saying.

With all of this said, I'm not sure Brown would have gotten past #30.
totally agree Lance. but don't say that around here though. you may get burned alive on a stake for speaking ill of the messiah Gibbs. After all, Gibbs is the greatest OL coach in the history of football and his arrival here guarantees success. Get with the program, LZ.

Gibbs has yet to coach a down for the Texans and is inviso to the media but he is above criticism and we should be lucky to be in his presence. Oh, and how many Super Bowls has Gibbs been in without Elway? Thats right, zero.

this deal stinks of Babin. coaches pick. workout warrior. raw project. bit of a reach based on many boards.

I always thought the ZBS was a system that didn't necessitate early selections on OL and that you could get guys that 'fit' later in the draft or even in UDFA. Especially when you have such glaring weaknesses at CB, DE, OLB, and RB...but whatever, hope it works out or its gonna be really a tough pill to swallow. Good luck, Duane Brown. Hope you are kickass. You will be the ones answering the questions from the media. We all know that is beneath Gibbs. Media be damned.
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Old 05-02-2008   #384
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
this deal stinks of Babin. coaches pick. workout warrior. raw project. bit of a reach based on many boards.

I always thought the ZBS was a system that didn't necessitate early selections on OL and that you could get guys that 'fit' later in the draft or even in UDFA.
A reach on who's boards? NFL teams or draftniks?

Weren't you clamoring for Rashard Mendenhall at #18? There's also the theory that ZBS teams shouldn't take backs early. In fact, there are enough draft theories out there to criticize any position selected. Don't take safeties or interior linemen early. Linebackers can be found in the later rounds. QBs are made, not born. Doesn't matter who the Texans could have selected, someone would complain.

How about waiting to biacth about the Brown pick until he plays a NFL game? At least then, we could have a debate with something tangible. Unlike the draft gurus, I'll wait until this class gets on the field before I grade them.
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Old 05-02-2008   #385
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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A reach on who's boards? NFL teams or draftniks?

Weren't you clamoring for Rashard Mendenhall at #18? There's also the theory that ZBS teams shouldn't take backs early. In fact, there are enough draft theories out there to criticize any position selected. Don't take safeties or interior linemen early. Linebackers can be found in the later rounds. QBs are made, not born. Doesn't matter who the Texans could have selected, someone would complain.

How about waiting to biacth about the Brown pick until he plays a NFL game? At least then, we could have a debate with something tangible. Unlike the draft gurus, I'll wait until this class gets on the field before I grade them.
No I wasn't clamoring for Mendenhall. The trade down was necessary and got us another quality player in Adibi (who may be the most impactive rookie we got) At #26 I would have taken Merling or Phillips or Cason. Our defense was and still is the problem with our team. Everyone knows you cant win without a good defense...something that we have yet to attain since we dumped Glenn and added PBurnt pre-2005 2-14 season.
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Old 05-02-2008   #386
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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Our defense was and still is the problem with our team.
That was true this past season. But, building a team is like a juggling act. Smith & Kubiak have to take into account a rise in production from the young defenders like Williams, Okoye, Bennett, Diles, and the Brandons (Harrison & Mitchell). And a possible drop in production from older vets, like Salaam.

The better teams take a player a year ahead of when they'll really need him. Smith and Kubiak are acting as if they're here for the long haul, as opposed to C & C when they went for broke on the Babin & Buchanon deals.
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Old 05-02-2008   #387
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Default Re: Duane Brown = Texans' First Round Choice

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post

this deal stinks of Babin. coaches pick. workout warrior. raw project. bit of a reach based on many boards.

I'm a fan, and I'll admit to looking at things through rose-colored Homer glasses.

But then again, this is the off-season, and the week after the draft. The time of year where optimism (warranted or unwarranted) is acceptable. The time of year when 32 out of 32 teams are Super Bowl contenders. If it's a good pick, then I'll be happy again many times in the coming seasons. If it's a bad pick, then there'll be plenty of times down the road where criticism and frustration is more warranted.

If being a fan did nothing but cause me to ***** and moan (regardless of whether I was right), I think I'd re-consider being a fan, unless I found bitching and moaning enjoyable. If I found bitching and moaning enjoyable, I'd re-consider lots of things.
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Old 05-02-2008   #388
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Default Re: Duane Brown = Texans' First Round Choice

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Originally Posted by LZ View Post
What does where a player goes have to do with how he is going to do?
Oh absolutely nothing. The only thing it affects is the size of his new house and the size of what's expected of him by the fans and media.

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I think Brown went early but I've covered the entire topic on my blog. However, you can discount people's opinion all you want but John Harris also pointed out how Alex Gibbs 1st round tackle, George Foster, has been a bust and was even dealt from Denver. I trust in Alex Gibbs the coach but I have seen many a quality coach fail in the area of evaluation. Do we not remember Dom Capers - one of the most respected 3-4 defensive minds in history? He felt like the Texans needed Travis Johnson, had to re-sign Gary Walker and must move up for Jason Babin. Coaching and evaluation are often mutually exclusive. That's all I'm saying.

With all of this said, I'm not sure Brown would have gotten past #30.
My intent wasn't to wholly discount your opinion, LZ. I respect it because you obviously know your O-lines. My point was simply to put all the post-draft analysis into proper perspective, which I think some people just refuse to do. And by "some people" I mean draft pudnicks like Todd McShay, who continually make factually incorrect statements in handing out their silly draft grades.

Alex Gibbs is a highly respected coach whose reputation for O-line genius is probably a mix of six parts truth and four parts hyperbole. There is a real chance that Gibbs has overrated Duane Brown, but the Texans hired him to get the the damn line fixed so they had to get him a player to work with. If Brown was a guy they felt fit what Gibbs wants, who am I to quibble? Brown could be just another guy, or he could prove to be a long-term answer at LT. I don't know the answer yet, but I am excited to see if he can develop into a good player.

My beef is with the "reach" crowd who were baffled by the Texans' first pick because they'd either never heard of the guy or had him graded in the middle of the second or third round. The Texans desperately needed a tackle, they didn't have a second round pick, and it's a reach that they traded down to snag the last remaining OT off the board and got an extra third round pick in the process? Really? That argument never made any sense to me, and we now know for a fact that San Diego would've taken him at 27. Brown's actual draft value proved to be much higher than most experts thought, so I think the Texans deserve some credit for turning an unfavorable Saturday (no Chris Williams or Branden Albert) into a reasonably good draft.

LT? Check.
CB? Check.
RB? Check.

I have a sneaky suspicion this team is going to be pretty damn good in 2008.
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Old 05-03-2008   #389
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

the Texans didn't desparately need a tackle so bad they had to use the 1st Round irregardless of value. the OL wasn't the reason we didn't make the playoffs last year. quite the contrary. the porous defense was.
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Old 05-03-2008   #390
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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the OL wasn't the reason we didn't make the playoffs last year. quite the contrary. the porous defense was.
True the overall performance of the O was better than the D, but there was a clear problem remaining on the O--Salaam giving up 10 sacks and who knows how many QB hurries, hits, etc. How many of those resulted in INT's, fumbles and 3rd downs not converted? Salaam did a great job for who he is supposed to be, a backup, but there were two giant problems on O and those were LT and RB--the Texans addressed both in the off-season.

Here is the other equation--overall value. Imagine the Texans use a point system and are sitting there with Cason and Brown available at 26 with Cason ranked at 86 and Brown at 80 but then they look down their board and see that what's likely in the third are a LT they have ranked at 20 and Molden who they have ranked at 60. The overall better value to the team is Brown and Molden.
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Old 05-03-2008   #391
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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the Texans didn't desparately need a tackle so bad they had to use the 1st Round irregardless of value. the OL wasn't the reason we didn't make the playoffs last year. quite the contrary. the porous defense was.
It sounds like you think they should have used a 1st round pick on defense "irregardless of value". What info do you have that DBrown wasn't the highest player on the board for them- certainly he was for the Chargers who picked Cason right after us.

Are you actually going to criticize the same team who chose Mario over Reggie and Vince two years ago for under-emphasizing the defense?

Let's look at the attention to defense the past three off-seasons:

2006: 1st and 2nd round- Mario and Demeco, signing of Weaver, Maddox, WRainer, Kalu, Cochran, etc...

2007: 1st, 4th, 5th round- Okoye, Bennett, Harrison, signing of Danny Clark, Fletcher, Demps, trade for M.Boulware.

2008: 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th round- Molden, Adibi, Okam, Barber, signing of J.Reeves, Bentley, CThompson


I'm not sure how anyone could honestly suggest that this team doesn't adequately weight the importance of defense. Your argument really has nothing to stand on. We know other teams also had Brown rated ahead of guys like Cason and that he wouldn't have made it out of the 1st round. Also, clearly, the team has sunk a lot of money and picks into the defense the past 3 years. So, what's your point other than an inability to admit when you are in error.
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Old 05-03-2008   #392
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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the Texans didn't desparately need a tackle so bad they had to use the 1st Round irregardless of value. the OL wasn't the reason we didn't make the playoffs last year. quite the contrary. the porous defense was.


You and Salaam's mother may be the only two people in the world that would say such a thing!
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Old 05-03-2008   #393
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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the Texans didn't desparately need a tackle so bad they had to use the 1st Round irregardless of value. the OL wasn't the reason we didn't make the playoffs last year. quite the contrary. the porous defense was.
Nope we need to continue to wait on Spencer and never ever get a player whom the Team thinks can be the LT for the next decade. Makes perfect sense.

Oh and as Dale has pointed out, they are drafting players for the defense incase you have not noticed. It is called balancing what they do on both sides of the ball versus just the one side like you are doing.
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Old 05-03-2008   #394
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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Him or you?
Both I'd assume. I know I only heard what he was saying and saw that he had to look quite a ways down to see the shorter Megan-Riley.

But yes, I'd say our new LT has a propensity to look at boobies.
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Old 05-03-2008   #395
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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Originally Posted by Second Honeymoon View Post
the Texans didn't desparately need a tackle so bad they had to use the 1st Round irregardless of value. the OL wasn't the reason we didn't make the playoffs last year. quite the contrary. the porous defense was.
Um, they took him right where he would've gone. If they don't take him at 26, the Chargers take him at 27. And even if they hadn't, Green Bay or St. Louis probably would have.

In other words, the Houston Texans got the right value out of the pick.
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Old 05-03-2008   #396
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

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In other words, the Houston Texans got the right value out of the pick.

Exactly. Brown was far from being the best LT in the draft, but the drop off after him was fairly steep. The Texans made the right choice. He's gonna need some coaching to get his pass defensive skills up, and I don't seem him as our starting LT going into the season, but he will be someday. And he should be a good one.
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Old 05-03-2008   #397
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

Well Kubiak has said he plans on throwing Brown into the fire...

He'll have to suck it up to get his spot taken before the first game of the season...
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Old 05-03-2008   #398
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Default Re: Duane Brown = Texans' First Round Choice

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totally agree Lance. but don't say that around here though. you may get burned alive on a stake for speaking ill of the messiah Gibbs. After all, Gibbs is the greatest OL coach in the history of football and his arrival here guarantees success. Get with the program, LZ.
You know, I'm pretty sure you just try to say stuff to get other people to respond with statements like this. It's obvious that people are willing to discuss their points with LZ (See Lucky's very well thought out post above your absolutely crappy one) in a normal and lucid manner. You try to get people mad and embellish your opinions to the point of them being inflammatory (Or you really need some meds to help calm you down some). This is why you get shit on with most of your posts, and people call you a troll and whatnot, while LZ gets tons of respect. Just saying.

To end my thoughts on Brown. It's pretty much a week after the draft. We'll start having mini-camp news and OTA news coming soon, and I think we can only really begin to scratch the surface of what we will think of the Brown pick when that starts. I am glad the Texans got some value for trading down (Slaton, Barber), and they still picked up a guy they were targeting. Sure he went a little early (But he's not getting a 30 million dollar contract either, so it's moot), but I don't see anybody left in the 3rd rounds or later that I would think could fill the shoes of "starting LT" in the NFL.

Oh how soon we forget the pathetic drafting of Asserly.
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Old 05-03-2008   #399
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

I guess it comes down too what your value is on an anchor for the o-line. Now this guy has the numbers, the arm length, and the starts, and qucikness they are looking for. What he doesn't have is Joe Thomas marine boot shine.

Running backs life span is five years. O-lineman eight. One thing is a fact today that wasn't April 29th. Duane Brown wasn't gong to make it to the 79 pick........Brown is Gibbs hand picked boy. Now you can argue that there would of been better value at giving up '09 picks to jump K.C. to land Alberts. They didn't have the ammo to jump Chicago. But at what price ? sacrifice Molden and Slaton ? Ah, no.

As I posted earllier SH...you have no point. the only thing you are doing now is showing your a$$. Dice it up any way you want.. the Texans got value with the pick(s). And they didn't reach. Be gald it wasn't me I'd of spent every pick in the bag moving up for Alberts. Damn the corner back.
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Old 05-03-2008   #400
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Default Re: Duane Brown: First Round pick of the Texans

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalemurphy View Post
It sounds like you think they should have used a 1st round pick on defense "irregardless of value". What info do you have that DBrown wasn't the highest player on the board for them- certainly he was for the Chargers who picked Cason right after us.

Are you actually going to criticize the same team who chose Mario over Reggie and Vince two years ago for under-emphasizing the defense?

Let's look at the attention to defense the past three off-seasons:

2006: 1st and 2nd round- Mario and Demeco, signing of Weaver, Maddox, WRainer, Kalu, Cochran, etc...

2007: 1st, 4th, 5th round- Okoye, Bennett, Harrison, signing of Danny Clark, Fletcher, Demps, trade for M.Boulware.

2008: 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th round- Molden, Adibi, Okam, Barber, signing of J.Reeves, Bentley, CThompson


I'm not sure how anyone could honestly suggest that this team doesn't adequately weight the importance of defense. Your argument really has nothing to stand on. We know other teams also had Brown rated ahead of guys like Cason and that he wouldn't have made it out of the 1st round. Also, clearly, the team has sunk a lot of money and picks into the defense the past 3 years. So, what's your point other than an inability to admit when you are in error.
just because you use a bunch of picks on defense doesnt mean your defense is goood.

oh and you know 'certainly he was highest rated player for the Chargers'. Oh really? i have read the same report as you but that doesnt make it fact.

my point is that the defense held better value at the position we drafted IMHO.

I also did not feel we 'desparately' needed a tackle. sure we needed a tackle but i felt other needs were more pressing IMHO.

you have opinion. i have opinioin. just like you used to make excuses for carr because that was your opinion. just like you blamed everything wrong with Carr ont eh coaching staff. that was your opinion too. I had my opinion then and I have my opinion now. sorry it doesnt jive with mine and dont be surprised if 10 years from now Brown is sacking groceries and Kenny Phillips is playing in his 6th Pro Bowl....

sorry if I dont buy into the whole 'Alex Gibbs Is God' argument that seems so pervasive around here. I guess i am not as good of a fan as you.

*yawns*
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Last edited by Second Honeymoon; 05-03-2008 at 12:10 PM.
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