Kubiak: Better Coach, Same Problem?

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by MightyTExan

This is not looking good to me people..................

(on if he will try to put C Chris White in the rotation this week) “No. I mean, (Mike) Flanagan’s doing a good job. Chris has gotten some snaps; he got some at the end of last week and will probably continue to get some snaps, but I think Mike’s played good enough for us to win and we’ve just all got to do a better job.”

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/St...?story_id=3836

Translation: Chris White sucks more than Mike Flanagan.

[Runner]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Translation: Chris White sucks more than Mike Flanagan.

Huh. Too bad they couldn't find anyone better than Flanagan in two years or White this year.

[Leahmic223]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

You act as if Mario gets double teamed every play because of his monster 4.5 sacks last year. I'm sorry but what are you talking about? The guy is blocked out of plays by tight ends sometimes. I like Mario, I think he is going to be a good player for us probably for awhile and I hope that he becomes a pro bowler but you've got to call things how they are at this point in time. You cannot make excuses for people ALL the time.

Now lets look at these 2nd year players and see why we expect more from Mario:

2006 NFL Draft:
#1 Overall: Mario Williams, 4.5 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#13 Overall: Kamerion Wimbley, 11 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#20 Overall: Tamba Hali, 8 sacks in 2006. 3 sacks in 2007.
#22 Overall: Manny Lawson, 2.5 sacks in 2006, 0 sacks in 2007 (injured for season in week 2 or 3 cant remember, only played 2 games.)
#32 Overall: Mathias Kiwanuka, 4 sacks in 2006, 4.5 sacks in 2007.
#63 Overall: Darryl Tapp, 3 sacks in 2006, 5.5 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#126 Overall: Elvis Dumervil, 8.5 sacks in 2006, 6 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#127 Overall: Ray Edwards, 3 sacks in 2006, 2 sacks and 2 FF in 2007.
#159 Overall: Mark Anderson (a backup), 12 sacks in 2006, 4 sacks and 1 FF in 2007.
#160 Overall: Brent Hawkins (a backup), 2 sacks in 2006, 1.5 sacks in 2007.

I picked these guys because they seem to have gotten the most PT since being drafted.

The only guys on this list with less career sacks than Mario is Manny Lawson, his old teammate, who had a season ending injury this season after only playing 2 games, Ray Edwards a guy picked #127 overall and a guy most people never heard of, and Brent Hawkins a backup in Jacksonville. They look pretty productive to me. Seems that Mario is having more trouble producing IN THE SACKS CATEGORY (which is what we are talking about here) than almost any of the others and he was picked before all of them. These stats don't include plays like interceptions and things of that nature that these other players have done. Mario has that fumble return for a touchdown. Some of these guys have multiple interceptions and touchdowns.

How come it didn't take Wimbley and Anderson any time before their rookie season to put up double digit sacks? Or how about Tamba Hali and Elvis Dumervil...how did they manage to get 8 and 8.5 sacks respectively in their rookie years? How come Anderson being a backup last year (probably still one this year) and having such a good season isn't having a sophomore slump? Same goes for Dumervil, why? Mario's stats from this year and last year seem to be pretty even. Where is this sophomore slump you were talking about? What is the difference between how these guys produce and how Mario produces?

Understand that I am not trying to bash Mario. I just dont understand how some people can act as if he is the most productive DE out of his class so we have to give him a break for not showing up consistantly. I figured it was time for a reality check...not time to bash anyone.

Furthermore responding to the second statement I bolded in your post, Amobi has had no problem producing in the sack column as a defensive tackle. He seems to be producing without "learning to adjust to the NFL" or "solid experience" and he is 20 years old! Younger than me for christ sakes. What was your point again?

What those guys have done is pointless because you have to give a guy 3 years to prove who they are. period. I don't care what those other guys are doing, nothing proves they will be better than Mario 3 years from now. I guess Michael Strahan was the worse DE coming out of his class right? I mean it took the guy 4 years to actually start producing.

AS for how come Anderson didn't take time...Dude came in on pass rushing situations FOR THE BEARS. Look at what he is doing now as a full time DE. Wembley is just a hell of a player, he's one of those rookies that comes in and plays. If I can recall correctly Mario had 10 more hurries than Anderson, which means Anderson benefits from playing on a great defense.

Also why don't you mention that Mario almost has double the tackles any of those guys have? Kiwanuka and Hali probably have more. Also most of those guys you have listed excluding Anderson, Wembley, Hali, and Elvis there have about the same numbers as Mario except that Mario gets more tackles.

There are many DEs in the NFL it took time for them to adjust. I can't believe I am saying this, you should know it takes time. There are guys like Peppers, Freeney, they just come out the gate swinging. They know, they get it right away. I mean Demeco just comes in here, produces he gets it. I am not going to say Okoye yet because he seems to be slowing down or something. It looks like Travis is starting to get it. Jason Taylor, it took the guy a few years, his second year he looked better than his 3rd year he didn't. His 4th year he started to produce consistently.

Also a lot of second year DEs get around 7 or 11 sacks...Mario has 9 more games, can we see how he finishes? If he does get 7 or more sacks than what is so wrong? I remember saying this exact same thing last year that is what worries me. I remember telling someone "There is still 8 more games, can he finish the season at least?" and that was his first year.

I predict he'll get abour 6 or 8 sacks total this year. For some people (not saying you) he needs about 20 to prove he's not a bust, but for me that is good enough.

As Thorn said, the guy played on one foot last year. No one hardly mentions that. This is the same injury that put that cowgirl player out for a about 4-5 weeks(What should I expect from a cowgirl? ). I think he finishes with some pretty good numbers, but unfortunately it will not keep some people off his back.

As mentioned in another post...the two guys picked after him are doing about the same as he is in their respective positions, yet they seem to get a pass everywhere and people say "You have to give them time." no one has ever been willing to give Mario that same time. Had he been picked by the Saints the outlook on him would have been completely different.

I really don't care that Mario has been picked over any of those guys. He still was the right pick. There are guys that have a fantastic first year and never continue up on it, there are guys who don't do squat their first few years than breakout...this is why you give a guy time. That is all. That has been it.

I still stand by my point. A season and a half is NOT enough time to pass final judgement on Mario Williams.

[Honoring Earl 34]

Originally Posted by Runner

I haven't seen that "In Kubes We trust" signature lately either.

If Kubiak was in a new version of Liar Liar ... what would he say .

Well number 58 there could'nt block a Texan cheerleader much less a DT . I guess Sherm needed friends around .

Our guard play ... well ... one wants to be a LT and must be trying to block the DE cause he sure ain't blocking the DT .

The other guard ... well .... we replaced him with our spare center .

I gotta tell ya , it's a damn good thing Matt gets rid of the ball quick ... of course we hipnotized him into thinking it was a hand grenade .

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

What those guys have done is pointless because you have to give a guy 3 years to prove who they are. period. I don't care what those other guys are doing, nothing proves they will be better than Mario 3 years from now. I guess Michael Strahan was the worse DE coming out of his class right? I mean it took the guy 4 years to actually start producing.

I never said it was a final conclusion. I said that we expect more out of him due to the success of other defensive ends drafted in the same class. Because you were talking about giving players plenty of time to learn to adjust, I figured it was about time to show the successes of players that have had the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME TO ADJUST.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

AS for how come Anderson didn't take time...Dude came in on pass rushing situations FOR THE BEARS. Look at what he is doing now as a full time DE. Wembley is just a hell of a player, he's one of those rookies that comes in and plays. If I can recall correctly Mario had 10 more hurries than Anderson, which means Anderson benefits from playing on a great defense.

As far as I am concerned he had a good year last year and he has more sacks than Mario this year in his FIRST year starting. Oh, I am looking, and it is obviously worse than Mario when it comes to pass rushing so I don't really know what point you make here.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

Also why don't you mention that Mario almost has double the tackles any of those guys have? Kiwanuka and Hali probably have more. Also most of those guys you have listed excluding Anderson, Wembley, Hali, and Elvis there have about the same numbers as Mario except that Mario gets more tackles.

Because we were talking about getting to the quarterback. I clearly wrote "IN THE SACKS CATEGORY" in caps so you wouldn't make this argument, but I guess that was for nothing. Also, I wrote later in the thread that he is a good run stopper (I figured you'd realize that tackles has alot to do with that, guess I was wrong there again).

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

There are many DEs in the NFL it took time for them to adjust. I can't believe I am saying this, you should know it takes time. There are guys like Peppers, Freeney, they just come out the gate swinging. They know, they get it right away. I mean Demeco just comes in here, produces he gets it. I am not going to say Okoye yet because he seems to be slowing down or something. It looks like Travis is starting to get it. Jason Taylor, it took the guy a few years, his second year he looked better than his 3rd year he didn't. His 4th year he started to produce consistently.

This may be, but to act as if comparing him to other DE's in his same draft class and analyzing his play is wrong is wrong in itself. He may be a late bloomer in the NFL but as of right now he is "producing" less than most of the DE's drafted in 2006 in the first 4 rounds IN THE SACKS AND PRESSURE CATEGORY.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

Also a lot of second year DEs get around 7 or 11 sacks...Mario has 9 more games, can we see how he finishes? If he does get 7 or more sacks than what is so wrong? I remember saying this exact same thing last year that is what worries me. I remember telling someone "There is still 8 more games, can he finish the season at least?" and that was his first year.

Also alot of soda's fizz when I open them. What kind of weird thing is that to say? Who care what "alot of second year DEs get"? I care about MARIO WILLIAMS and how MARIO WILLIAMS is producing compared to defensive ends in the same class, therefore determining his value AS A DEFENSIVE END of the 2006 draft class.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

I predict he'll get abour 6 or 8 sacks total this year. For some people (not saying you) he needs about 20 to prove he's not a bust, but for me that is good enough.

I'd be happy with 7 sacks as well. Because I know he isn't a pure pass rusher. His strength is stopping the run. My MAIN problem here is that the reason given for choosing Mario Williams was that we needed a PASS RUSH. Not a defensive end that can stop the run, we got that in Anthony Weaver.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

As Thorn said, the guy played on one foot last year. No one hardly mentions that. This is the same injury that put that cowgirl player out for a about 4-5 weeks(What should I expect from a cowgirl? ). I think he finishes with some pretty good numbers, but unfortunately it will not keep some people off his back.

I mentioned it later (later than the post you have quoted) in the thread. I said I gave him the benifit of the doubt last year but what is the difference between this year and last year? I don't see a huge difference like he all the sudden got the use of one of his feet back...as you so dramatically put it.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

As mentioned in another post...the two guys picked after him are doing about the same as he is in their respective positions, yet they seem to get a pass everywhere and people say "You have to give them time." no one has ever been willing to give Mario that same time. Had he been picked by the Saints the outlook on him would have been completely different.

Not willing to give him time would be me posting "GET THE F OFF MY TEAM" rather than me looking over his performance thus far and comparing him to guys in similiar situations (same draft class). Obviously you could say "Oh Anderson is on a better defense" as you have already done and give me hundreds of factors that show they are not in similiar situations, so Ill leave you to that argument as I know it is coming. There is no way I can combat it in as few amount of words as I would like.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

I really don't care that Mario has been picked over any of those guys. He still was the right pick. There are guys that have a fantastic first year and never continue up on it, there are guys who don't do squat their first few years than breakout...this is why you give a guy time. That is all. That has been it.

I hope your right, but if you haven't noticed, time is the same problem we had with Carr and alot of people are a bit upset about having to wait and wait to see what it is we drafted.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

I still stand by my point. A season and a half is NOT enough time to pass final judgement on Mario Williams.

Who said anything about final judgement? It's you that is taking simple analysis and changing it into a conclusion; I don't see anyone else making their final judgement.

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by Runner

Huh. Too bad they couldn't find anyone better than Flanagan in two years or White this year.

I just say that because we all know Flanagan isn't doing a very good job so to hear Kubiak say that makes me think he doesn't know his football too well or Chris White just isn't as good as Flanagan. Pretty sure it is the latter.

[Leahmic223]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

I never said it was a final conclusion. I said that we expect more out of him due to the success of other defensive ends drafted in the same class. Because you were talking about giving players plenty of time to learn to adjust, I figured it was about time to show the successes of players that have had the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME TO ADJUST.

So basically...a season and a half is right about where you expect Mario to produce.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

As far as I am concerned he had a good year last year and he has more sacks than Mario this year in his FIRST year starting. Oh, I am looking, and it is obviously worse than Mario when it comes to pass rushing so I don't really know what point you make here.

No because he had 12 sacks as a situational guy. So you'd figure as a full time DE he would do better, but he is on pace to get below his 12 and maybe have a single-digit sack season. Also...he has .5 of a sack advatage over Mario... one half of sack over Mario and Mario has more taclkes than him also.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Because we were talking about getting to the quarterback. I clearly wrote "IN THE SACKS CATEGORY" in caps so you wouldn't make this argument, but I guess that was for nothing. Also, I wrote later in the thread that he is a good run stopper (I figured you'd realize that tackles has alot to do with that, guess I was wrong there again).

I am talking about Mario Williams the DE, that includes his pass rushing. I guess you were talking about his pass rushing, but I am talking about the overall player. I did ignore it, I saw what you are talking about, but I just ignored it because I am talking about the player. I figure if you are going to get a #1 pick he should be a good overall player, not just good at one thing.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

This may be, but to act as if comparing him to other DE's in his same draft class and analyzing his play is wrong is wrong in itself. He may be a late bloomer in the NFL but as of right now he is "producing" less than most of the DE's drafted in 2006 in the first 4 rounds IN THE SACKS AND PRESSURE CATEGORY.

As of right now he has 3.5 sacks and producing around the same as all of those other guys. So I don't know how he is doing so bad right now.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Also alot of soda's fizz when I open them. What kind of weird thing is that to say? Who care what "alot of second year DEs get"? I care about MARIO WILLIAMS and how MARIO WILLIAMS is producing compared to defensive ends in the same class, therefore determining his value AS A DEFENSIVE END of the 2006 draft class.

Okay, you can't determine his value as a DE among his class after a season and a half.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

I'd be happy with 7 sacks as well. Because I know he isn't a pure pass rusher. His strength is stopping the run. My MAIN problem here is that the reason given for choosing Mario Williams was that we needed a PASS RUSH. Not a defensive end that can stop the run, we got that in Anthony Weaver.

Who says he can't ever learn to pass rush?

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

I mentioned it later (later than the post you have quoted) in the thread. I said I gave him the benifit of the doubt last year but what is the difference between this year and last year? I don't see a huge difference like he all the sudden got the use of one of his feet back...as you so dramatically put it.

You don't see much of a difference? He's playing better than he did last year is he not? Now could this be because he's learning more or because he's 100% I think it may be both. Plantar is pretty limiting though, so I think it is a factor.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Not willing to give him time would be me posting "GET THE F OFF MY TEAM" rather than me looking over his performance thus far and comparing him to guys in similiar situations (same draft class). Obviously you could say "Oh Anderson is on a better defense" as you have already done and give me hundreds of factors that show they are not in similiar situations, so Ill leave you to that argument as I know it is coming. There is no way I can combat it in as few amount of words as I would like.

Anderson was also a situational pass rusher on a great defense.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

I hope your right, but if you haven't noticed, time is the same problem we had with Carr and alot of people are a bit upset about having to wait and wait to see what it is we drafted.

You have to wait, it was a mistake in putting Carr behind no line. It was not a mistake in waiting to see what we had.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Who said anything about final judgement? It's you that is taking simple analysis and changing it into a conclusion; I don't see anyone else making their final judgement.

Go through this whole post. There are plenty of posters saying "He will never be this or that." I'm not sure it was you. I was just responding to your post. Maybe you are willing to give him his time and you are just criticizing his play. Fine.

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

No because he had 12 sacks as a situational guy. So you'd figure as a full time DE he would do better, but he is on pace to get below his 12 and maybe have a single-digit sack season. Also...he has .5 of a sack advatage over Mario... one half of sack over Mario and Mario has more taclkes than him also.

My point was that you said "look at what he is doing now" after stating he had a good season. That usually means that he isn't doing very well or as well anyway. Even if that is so...my point was that he has more sacks than Mario THIS YEAR as a STARTING DE so I do not know what your point is.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

I am talking about Mario Williams the DE, that includes his pass rushing. I guess you were talking about his pass rushing, but I am talking about the overall player. I did ignore it, I saw what you are talking about, but I just ignored it because I am talking about the player. I figure if you are going to get a #1 pick he should be a good overall player, not just good at one thing.

The first post I responded to of yours was about his pass rushing ability. It said nothing about his run defense. Just because my comments were directed toward what you had said rather than what you could have said doesn't mean I have completely ignored the rest of his football game.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

Okay, you can't determine his value as a DE among his class after a season and a half.

Dude, take an accounting class or something. Value is determined on a regular basis. You don't determine the value of the #1 overall pick and set it in stone, it changes regularly. That's why I use terms such as "as of right now". What's up with assuming my or anyone else's opinion is the last they will ever make about the guy? Why can't you understand that it is a rating as of RIGHT NOW. By your reasoning, we shouldn't make any analysis until after year 3. Talk about stupid.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

Who says he can't ever learn to pass rush?

I don't know...you tell me. Where is that stated?

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

You have to wait, it was a mistake in putting Carr behind no line. It was not a mistake in waiting to see what we had.

I'm not going to even address Carr with you. Never said it was a mistake to wait and see. Never said we shouldn't wait. Man you love to assume. I was trying to explain the reasoning behind so many people wanting to analyze Mario's play. Our last #1 overall pick is no longer on the team and never materialized into what we thought he was going to be. If you haven't figured it out yet...the reason people want to analyze him now is because of a similiar situation that we had not to long ago.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

So basically...a season and a half is right about where you expect Mario to produce.

I expect Mario to produce IMMEDIATELY. As soon as he touches the football field I expect it. And no this doesn't mean I have given up on him because he hasn't produced up to expectations. And no this doesn't mean my final decision on Mario Williams is "he sux ass"

[Leahmic223]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

My point was that you said "look at what he is doing now" after stating he had a good season. That usually means that he isn't doing very well or as well anyway. Even if that is so...my point was that he has more sacks than Mario THIS YEAR as a STARTING DE so I do not know what your point is.

He has a half of a sack more than Mario. That isn't a big deal and isn't really a deal at all.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

The first post I responded to of yours was about his pass rushing ability. It said nothing about his run defense. Just because my comments were directed toward what you had said rather than what you could have said doesn't mean I have completely ignored the rest of his football game.

That is what I said later in my previous post. I told you I was just responding to your post, in this thread there are posters that seem to have passed final judgement on Mario. Was it you, I guess not.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Dude, take an accounting class or something. Value is determined on a regular basis. You don't determine the value of the #1 overall pick and set it in stone, it changes regularly. That's why I use terms such as "as of right now". What's up with assuming my or anyone else's opinion is the last they will ever make about the guy? Why can't you understand that it is a rating as of RIGHT NOW. By your reasoning, we shouldn't make any analysis until after year 3. Talk about stupid.

Well I don't know about stupid, but I am not going to resort to any personal attacks. Whether you meant it to be personal or not, I did take it as a personal attack on my intelligence.

As for the debate, didn't I recognize in my previous post that you were criticizing Mario more than attacking him? I siad it was fine, I was going to leave you alone and let it be. My reasoning is this, you can't make a final judgement on a guy after one season and half. It isn't "You can't judge him period." it never has been. I said criticize him, I don't care. But hearing things like "He will never be this or that" is passing final judgement. You didn't say those things I recognized , but there are others saying things that makes me assume they are passing final judgement on Mario.

[/quote]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

Never said it was a mistake to wait and see. Never said we shouldn't wait. Man you love to assume. I was trying to explain the reasoning behind so many people wanting to analyze Mario's play. Our last #1 overall pick is no longer on the team and never materialized into what we thought he was going to be. If you haven't figured it out yet...the reason people want to analyze him now is because of a similiar situation that we had not to long ago.

I never said you said it was never a mistake. Did I? No I just stated that waiting to see what we had was the right decision. That is all. You are the one that assumed here.

Also if people are sensitive to Mario because of Carr they shouldn't be. They are two completely different people. There are people analyzing Mario right now and there are people attacking him, saying he is horrible, and saying he will never be a great DE. Are you one of them? I guess not.

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

I expect Mario to produce IMMEDIATELY. As soon as he touches the football field I expect it. And no this doesn't mean I have given up on him because he hasn't produced up to expectations. And no this doesn't mean my final decision on Mario Williams is "he sux ass"

Cool then, what is the problem?

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

He has a half of a sack more than Mario. That isn't a big deal and isn't really a deal at all.

By my count Anderson is up by one sack...I may be wrong, but I don't think so.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

Well I don't know about stupid, but I am not going to resort to any personal attacks. Whether you meant it to be personal or not, I did take it as a personal attack on my intelligence.

As for the debate, didn't I recognize in my previous post that you were criticizing Mario more than attacking him? I siad it was fine, I was going to leave you alone and let it be. My reasoning is this, you can't make a final judgement on a guy after one season and half. It isn't "You can't judge him period." it never has been. I said criticize him, I don't care. But hearing things like "He will never be this or that" is passing final judgement. You didn't say those things I recognized , but there are others saying things that makes me assume they are passing final judgement on Mario.

I don't mean to attack you, bro, and I am sorry for it. I just don't see the reasoning behind some of what you say. But I do agree that you can't make a final judgement after a year and a half.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

I never said you said it was never a mistake. Did I? No I just stated that waiting to see what we had was the right decision. That is all. You are the one that assumed here.

Your probably right...sorry for that.

[Double Barrel]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

As for the debate, didn't I recognize in my previous post that you were criticizing Mario more than attacking him? I siad it was fine, I was going to leave you alone and let it be. My reasoning is this, you can't make a final judgement on a guy after one season and half. It isn't "You can't judge him period." it never has been. I said criticize him, I don't care. But hearing things like "He will never be this or that" is passing final judgement. You didn't say those things I recognized , but there are others saying things that makes me assume they are passing final judgement on Mario.

I've read through the entire thread and NOBODY made statements akin to "He will never be this or that". People have just analyzed his play, as well as the rest of the defensive line, up to this point. Not all of the opinions are pretty and homeristic, but that is the nature of being fans for a mediocre team.

You are connecting the [imaginary] dots and making assumptions that people are "passing final judgement", when, in fact, that is contrary to the actual posts in this thread. I'm not attacking you, but it does appear to be a Don Quixote syndrome in action. Comprehend more and assume less and there would not be near as much conflict.

[Leahmic223]

Originally Posted by TexansSeminole

By my count Anderson is up by one sack...I may be wrong, but I don't think so.



I don't mean to attack you, bro, and I am sorry for it. I just don't see the reasoning behind some of what you say. But I do agree that you can't make a final judgement after a year and a half.



Your probably right...sorry for that.

I don't know if I said it in this thread or the other Mario thread about his presser last week. I know he isn't playing like he should be playing right now. I realize that, but i've seen many posts saying things like "He's never going to be this or that." also i've veen seeing people say things like this last year.

Now the only reason I defend Mario like I do is because people then turn around and judge the same two guys picked after Mario differently. They say "Well he has to have time." yet when it comes to Mario I just don't see it much.

My feeling on this is that he's going to improve and I feel he CAN develop into a pass rusher. Just like people feel VY is going to develop into a passer. Just like people feel Bush can develop into a actual RB.

Also Mario was more than likely going to be the first DE taken, he was the first defensive players on most if not all teams boards. That is why I feel Mario's value as a player and to this team is can he reach his potential. He hasn't reached it yet, but if he does his value changes as you mentioned. So I don't know why I am debating with you. Maybe I started it I am not sure.

I agree that he's a good run-stopper and his pass rushing can be improved greatly. And he should be judged as a pass rusher first because that is what he is here for.

[Thorn]

Mario has the stigma of having been drafted first, and gets an abnormal amount of flack because of it. Football fans will be debating the Mario-Bush-VY thing for years. None of those three have produced yet what everyone thinks they should have, and all three have been outplayed by players drafted lower than them. I’d like to say let’s revisit this thing in another couple of years, but that would be futile. This will be a point of contention for a long time until one of those three truly steps up.

I believe Mario and VY will.

[Second Honeymoon]

Mario could develop into a good NFL player but right now he is average to below-average for a starter. When you also add in the fact that he is such a big cap hit and the fact that we spent a #1 overall pick on him, then you can start to realize how much the Texans have invested in this guy and how he has delivered a poor return on that investment going into his 24th game as a full time starter.

I am not a Mario hater but I refuse to make up excuses for professionals. The Strahan comparison is a bit farfetched too. At the end of the day, if Mario wasnt the #1 overall pick and making so much money he would be 2nd or 3rd on the RE depth chart on just about any NFL defensive unit. He has to start producing or he can expect the criticisms to snowball.

I want the guy to produce and I don't expect Pro Bowl numbers overnight. What I do expect is for him to actually have a motor and for him to stop waltzing with OL play after play. The guy is always standing up away from the action at the end of a play too. I think the best bet for him would be a move to DT alongside Okoye. Then you go out and get a real pass rushing threat and not just some workout warrior who is slow in pads.

[TexansSeminole]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

So I don't know why I am debating with you. Maybe I started it I am not sure.

No no, don't blame yourself...I started it when I saw what you were posting.

That is it for me when it comes to this though. Everything I have to say has been said and I would just end up repeating myself.

[Leahmic223]

Originally Posted by Double Barrel

I've read through the entire thread and NOBODY made statements akin to "He will never be this or that". People have just analyzed his play, as well as the rest of the defensive line, up to this point. Not all of the opinions are pretty and homeristic, but that is the nature of being fans for a mediocre team.

You are connecting the [imaginary] dots and making assumptions that people are "passing final judgement", when, in fact, that is contrary to the actual posts in this thread. I'm not attacking you, but it does appear to be a Don Quixote syndrome in action. Comprehend more and assume less and there would not be near as much conflict.

This is what I was talking about.

Originally Posted by Runner

I don't think Mario will ever perform near the level of his draft pick/salary. Is that his fault? No. Is it the team's fault? Yes. Wasted draft pick, wasted salary. They are not getting value for what they used to get him.

Originally Posted by Vinny

He beat up guys who didn't have the physical ability to stay with him. You don't find those matchups in the NFL too often.

What does "serious potential" mean if you have no football skill or instinct for the game? Do you remember when that wrestler named Brock Lesnar worked out for the Vikings? He is everything you want when looking for "serious potential" in an athlete in a sport such as football. He couldn't overcome his lack of instinct, football smarts, and ability to harness all that potential when dealing with NFL veterans. For all his immense physical ability guys with lesser potential whipped his ass all the time.

Also just mentioning the draft IMO makes me assume that that person thinks we should have drafted someone else. So than that means that person probably thinks Mario is a bust.

Also I saw someone say he will be a good player but never great. I don't feel like searching through the thread right now but that is final judgement on Mario.

As for Texanseminole, I think me and him started about the last play so I don't know how it went to Mario.

I don't even bring up Mario, but some of the post come real close to calling Mario a bust. That is where I come in, the first thing was a sentence about not passing final judgement on him.

[Runner]

Originally Posted by Runner

I don't think Mario will ever perform near the level of his draft pick/salary. Is that his fault? No. Is it the team's fault? Yes. Wasted draft pick, wasted salary. They are not getting value for what they used to get him.

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

Also just mentioning the draft IMO makes me assume that that person thinks we should have drafted someone else. So than that means that person probably thinks Mario is a bust.

Too bad assumptions aren't knowledge. Do a search - I was a Mario fan pre-draft. After watching him play at the NFL level I've changed my mind. Some people can change their minds based on new evidence.

Sorry to break your strawman argument.

[Leahmic223]

Originally Posted by Runner

Too bad assumptions aren't knowledge. Do a search - I was a Mario fan pre-draft. After watching him play at the NFL level I've changed my mind. Some people can change their minds based on new evidence.

Sorry to break your strawman argument.

So who should we have drafted? That is what I want to know.

[Runner]

Originally Posted by Leahmic223

So who should we have drafted? That is what I want to know.

First you build a strawman then you change the argument? I thought you were just arguing that it was unfair to judge Mario before three years are up.

My question is, do developmental players taken later in the draft get three years too, or just players who are paid to make an immediate impact?

[Leahmic223]

Originally Posted by Runner

First you build a strawman then you change the argument? I thought you were just arguing that it was unfair to judge Mario before three years are up.

My question is, do developmental players taken later in the draft get three years too, or just players who are paid to make an immediate impact?

I asked the draft question because you already have passed your final judgement on him. So when I figure you did, I thought it was right to ask you about the draft.

I'm done with it though. I just wonder those who think Mario was a waste of a pick who should we have picked then? I don't care about it no more though, I'm done with it.

As for the strawman...I didn't build one. My first post was responding to Vinny calling Mario a workout warrior. I know what that means, it means a guy who merely puts up numbers in the draft workouts but never can and will in actual games. And all I said to that was "I don't think it is fair to judge guys after a season and a half."