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Old 06-02-2004   #41
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Perhaps some of the issue that we are experincing is that we have an OC that is offensivly orientated and a Head Coach that is defensivly orientated. That has to cause a bit of schisophrinia (sp) on how the team operates, particularly at the phylisophical (sp) level. We have a OC trying to figure out how to be conservative in his calls when he is by nature more open offensive minded.
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Old 06-02-2004   #42
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Originally Posted by edo783
Perhaps some of the issue that we are experincing is that we have an OC that is offensivly orientated and a Head Coach that is defensivly orientated. That has to cause a bit of schisophrinia (sp) on how the team operates, particularly at the phylisophical (sp) level. We have a OC trying to figure out how to be conservative in his calls when he is by nature more open offensive minded.
I've thought the same thing but could not put it into words. Well said
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Old 06-02-2004   #43
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However it took them much longer to become a legitimate team than 4 years
As far as I'm concerned, they proved they were a legit team in '79 when they went to the NFC championship game, and they proved it wasn't a fluke by winning the division again two years later. Yes, they had some terrible years before and after that but I think they had organizational issues for years that affected the type of teams they put on the field. That's not my point.

What is my point is the fact that Tampa could call themselves division champs after 4 years of existence, starting from nothing, in an era where free agency as we know it didn't exist and success largely depended on drafting well and executing good trades.

What is also my point is that:

Cleveland went from zero to the playoffs in 4 years in the era of modern free agency.

Jax went from zero to the AFC championship game in 2 years by drafting well and filling in other key positions with solid FA acquisitions. They (and Carolna) had the advantage of it being an era where a lot of teams didn't yet understand cap constraints and as a result, there were a lot of good FAs available back then. However, Jax used the draft to build moreso than Carolina.

Carolina went from zero to the NFC championship game in 2 years using FA as their primary model. Their success was understandably short lived.

The Texans had a boat load of veteran expansion draft selections and have drafted in the top 10 for the last three seasons. The argument about "how can we compete with a team that has been around for 20 years" is weak. If the other teams I mentioned can do it (go to the playoffs in 4 years), so can we. That's my point.

Now, depending on what method you choose to build your team and whether it can be sustained is an entirely different argument. But, that said, Cleveland used the most conservative model of those I mentioned and was still able to "get there" in 4 years.
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Old 06-02-2004   #44
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Originally Posted by TheOgre
I disagree. He was part of some very productive offenses in Houston, New England, and Jacksonville before getting the head coaching gig in Cleveland.

There is really no questioning his resume on offense.
Are you disagreeing with anyone questioning Palmer's resume or are you questioning whether anyone has questioned Palmer's resume? You make some points regarding Palmer's coaching history. But, he has had critics in the past. I'll link some if you want, but what's the point?

Palmer was the WR coach with the Oilers, and the R&S put up big numbers. When you have guys like Jeffires, Givens, & Hill, it's hard not to be successful. Did that make the Oiler offense a great offense? No, it was very flawed and was exposed in the playoffs.

Palmer is credited with doing an excellent job working with Bledsoe (By Bledsoe himself as well). But, Palmer was never the OC at New England. Most people think that it was "no coincidence" that Bledsoe only got to the Super Bowl with Bill Parcells as his head coach.

Palmer's offenses in Jax faired very well. But he did have a top O-line anchored by one of the great tackles in NFL history, a premier set of WRs in Smith & McCardell, an excellent pair of RB's in Taylor & Stewart, and an athletic, strong-armed QB in his prime in Brunell. And he was running virtually the same offense his buddy Kevin Gilbride did the previous year when the Jags went the AFC Championship game. It's not as if he turned a bunch of scrubs into a fine tuned unit.

Of course Palmer's offense stunk in Cleveland. No surprise, they were an expansion team. How much was it Palmer, how much the players? Who knows, who cares? Palmer has been an OC for 6 seasons total. 2 good seasons with Pro Bowl caliber players. 4 not so good seasons with expansion teams. Pretty much what you'd expect. When Palmer has a good O-line, a outstanding group of skilled position players, and a top QB...he becomes a genius. Here's to hoping that Palmer reaches genius status again this season.
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Old 06-02-2004   #45
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-AJ-

"they [the Buccaneers] had organizational issues for years that affected the type of teams they put on the field"

Legit teams start by having competent ownership and management.

Capers is growing it slowly - growing it right. Grooming guys for not just one Championship but for continued success season after season. In Carolina he admitted that he signed too many veterans and tried to grow it too quickly. Every franchise who has tried to do that has faced aged players and cap constraints. When you have to cut a quality veteran to sign your draft class that is a pretty clear sign that you have mis-managed the salary cap. Which consequently harms your team in the long run. And Capers does not want to be faced with that again. In Carolina after they all retired or were cut, the team went down hill. He ended up loosing favor with the fans and the local media here in North Carolina. I still hear people talk about their experience with the Panthers and Dom Capers. He was then later fired. Lesson?

And on a side note, if you really believe that Tampa was legit after the 79 season then you may also have the belief that the Cardinals are a legit team since they won a championship back in the 30's or something. I dont buy that. Tampa was awful. They were the butt of a bunch of jokes on Sports Center. Who cares about 79' when they were that bad for that long? They were the butt of my own jokes between friends. The truth is that they were not legit. How can you say that? They had loosing season after loosing season and really didnt come into their own untill Sam Wyche was hired and then fully bloomed with Dungy. Not to mention the flash and bang of Gruden. If they loose again next year people will be calling for his head as well. Loosing GM Rich McKay to the Falcons wont help Gruden out either. That guy is the best.

I guess my point is that is not realistic to expect a Championship in 4 years even though the NFL is peppered with examples throughout its history. There are innumerable examples of a four year plan going very wrong as well. Many many more that did not work then did. Besides the Texans and McNair have already stated publically to a 5 year playoff plan. And that to me, looking at where our team needs to grow, seems more tangable.

Patience grasshopper.

Having said all that, if they do indeed perform better than expectations then that is just a super feeling. But if they don't perform then people want to roll out the guillotine. IMO.
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Old 06-02-2004   #46
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Grasshopper? Funny. I've been watching the NFL since Larry Csonka was a rookie.

Who's expecting a championship? I don't see the Texans making the playoffs this year. In numerous threads I've predicted 8-8 this year and that if 7-9 happens, I could roll with it considering the circumstances.

My point all along in all these ramblings was that based on history (the new-Browns precedent specifically) it's not unrealistic to start thinking playoffs in the 4th year of a startup franchise. My statement: "If the other teams I mentioned can do it (go to the playoffs in 4 years), so can we" does not equate to playoff "expectations" (much less championship). But it does mean that we are getting close to the point (one more year) where we can realistically talk about playoffs, but not necessarily "expect" it. I store hopes and expectations in separate bins.

Again, I think the new-Browns have set the benchmark that's most relevant to our situation. Really the only thing I objected to was your statement: "How do we compete with a team that is 20 years old?" which to me is irrelevant. Show me a team that's 20 years old and I'll show you a team that's turned over it's roster about 5 times.

Plus, I'm about the last person you would find around here with unrealistic expectations. I was an Oilers season ticket holder for about 20 years.

I'm not old enough to remember the Cardinals teams of the 30's (actually they last won a championship in '47 per this article that was written before the 2004 Super Bowl), but they did have some very good (and legit) teams in the mid 70's with Jim Hart, Jim Otis, Terry Metcalf, Dan Dierdorf, Conrad Dobler, Mel Gray and others -- teams that I enjoyed watching very much. They fielded those very good and very legit teams despite the fact that they have been one of the most poorly run franchises in NFL history.

I think we agree on much more than we disagree on.

Last edited by aj.; 06-02-2004 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 06-02-2004   #47
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I indeed agree with that.
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Old 06-03-2004   #48
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Originally Posted by Lucky
Palmer was the WR coach with the Oilers, and the R&S put up big numbers. When you have guys like Jeffires, Givens, & Hill, it's hard not to be successful. Did that make the Oiler offense a great offense? No, it was very flawed and was exposed in the playoffs.

Palmer is credited with doing an excellent job working with Bledsoe (By Bledsoe himself as well). But, Palmer was never the OC at New England. Most people think that it was "no coincidence" that Bledsoe only got to the Super Bowl with Bill Parcells as his head coach.

Palmer's offenses in Jax faired very well. But he did have a top O-line anchored by one of the great tackles in NFL history, a premier set of WRs in Smith & McCardell, an excellent pair of RB's in Taylor & Stewart, and an athletic, strong-armed QB in his prime in Brunell. And he was running virtually the same offense his buddy Kevin Gilbride did the previous year when the Jags went the AFC Championship game. It's not as if he turned a bunch of scrubs into a fine tuned unit.
Basically what I am reading from you is that Palmer had relatively no impact as a coach, because he happened to be in the right situation at the right time.

Parcells had been Bledsoe's coach the 3 previous years yet year 4, Palmer's one as quarterbacks coach, his TD-INT ratio changed drastically. Sure there are a lot of factors that could have led to this, but you cannot overlook the fact that Palmer was his QB coach.

The next year he goes to Jacksonville and the same exact thing happens to Brunell. Sure his buddy Gilbride was there the previous season, but the TD-INT ratio was not very good that year. It suddenly improved drastically the next season. Again it could have been anything that led to this change, but you cannot overlook the fact that Palmer was there.

I agree that he had good QB's and overall offenses in both New England and Jacksonville. I just tend to think that he made good offenses even better. Perhaps the stats say something to me they do not to you. If that is that case, Lucky, I'll agree to disagree.
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Old 06-03-2004   #49
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One thing I have noticed on this thread is that there is a pretty even split with the Palmer fans and haters. I honestly think that only at the end of this year can we really make a good assesment of the offensive scheme and how it's being executed.

The players will have had Palmer's stamp on them for 3yrs, Carr particularly. No rookies will be starting (fingers crossed!) and there is a high degree of team chemistry in play. The conditions have been set over the 1st 2 seasons to see what are offense is capable of doing.

I think that the stat info from Palmer's previous gigs that we have been seeing could easily be viewed Pro or Con for Palmer. I am undecided at this point and while I admit to some serious frustrations a couple times last year I am willing to ride this season out and see how things shake out.
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Old 06-03-2004   #50
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Originally Posted by TheOgre
Basically what I am reading from you is that Palmer had relatively no impact as a coach, because he happened to be in the right situation at the right time.

If that is that case, Lucky, I'll agree to disagree.
Well, I still don't know exactly what the disagreement is about. I did not say that Palmer has not made an impact as a coach. What I did take disagreement with was the notion that Palmer is universally thought of as a "great offensive mind" or an "offensive genius". If someone cuts Palmer slack for his lack of success with expansion offenses (and they should) then they canít give him all the credit when playing with a stacked deck. Somewhere between "no impact" & "offensive genius" is where the truth probably lies.
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