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Old 09-29-2004   #21
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Originally Posted by Fiddy
On a side note, Indy plays Cover 2 and for some reason Favre didnt take the 10 yard dump downs to Green and challenged deep to Walker and it worked and McNabb destroyed the Lions, who played Cover 2...
No Favre didn't dump down to Green all day, he dumped down to Driver, Franks, Green, Henderson and Fisher all day on 5-15 yd passes. He had 3 receptions over 20 yards all day, i.e. he didn't challenge down field as much as Carr did against Detroit. McNabb had 5 tosses over 20 yds on 42 attempts. Carr had 5 tosses over 20 yds and should have had a 6th but for bad officiating on 34 attempts. Taking strikes down the field was not the difference in the out come of the Texans' and Eagles' games against Detroit.
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Old 09-29-2004   #22
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The same remains....1. we need our O-line to over power the opposing D-lineman, to make it short....we need protection! We saw how dangerous Carr and his recieving corp can be.

2. We need a pass rush. We saw how it paid dividends Sunday....apply the pressure and you'll get in and you give our secondary a chance out there.

3. D.D. should not be the focal point in this offense. We have too many weapons and we've discovered that D.D. isn't a heavy load kind of back....this will in turn reduce the turnovers significantly giving us a chance to win with how productive our offense has been!

4. The coaching staff needs to be agressive when the situation calls. They did it Sunday....we have the team so don't hesistate. If you're already losing....what more do you have to lose......open that playbook!!
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Old 09-29-2004   #23
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Explain this one to me--show me where opposing defenses release everyone but their front 4 or 3 to cover those down field runs from the "elite" rb's, evidently giving up on every run under 5 yds, for shear fear of the 50 yd run? Folks routinely stack the line against the Ravens, KC, Miami last season, Denver last season, etc. to stuff run 1st offenses. Teams do not drop 7 or 8 to hope they can contain the RB down field.
The Texans. For the first three quarters of the first 3 games the Texans have brought 3 and dropped 8 because they were preventing Holmes and LT from getting into pass coverage but gave up 4-5 yards a carry....

And reasons that you stack the line against last years Ravens', KC, Miami, Denver:
Ravens: Boller was the starting QB till he got injured and then Wright took over and Marcus Robinson was the only deep threat. And teams that stacked the line payed the price because Lewis constanly broke long runs for TDs...
KC: The KC WR corps didnt strike fear in anybody so why not try to stop Holmes....and even when they stacked the line Holmes got 4-5 yards a pop
Miami: Chambers was the #1, who was the #2???
Denver: Teams are going to let Portis beat them when there is a 3rd string QB in there and a 34 year old Rod Smith was the #1 WR???? And when teams did stack the line, Portis went crazy...

When the Lions stacked the line against the Texans, did Davis still get his 4 yards a carry???? Teams stacked the line because they could stop Davis on running plays and then on a pass play they could contain Davis on a dump off and wouldnt give Carr enough time to look down field so by blitzing they stop the WRs. Would you rather die by 50 yard bombs or give up a 1st downs and know that sooner or later someone on the Texans will make a boneheaded mistake. Until Davis can bust out long runs, teams will continue to blitz...
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Old 09-29-2004   #24
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Originally Posted by Fiddy
The Texans. For the first three quarters of the first 3 games the Texans have brought 3 and dropped 8 because they were preventing Holmes and LT from getting into pass coverage but gave up 4-5 yards a carry....
You need to go back and watch those games again because the Texans were not dropping 8 on running plays. Sure if Holmes or LT came out they put someone on him, but that isn't what your original assertion was--that teams drop 7 or 8 guys back rather than leaving at least the normal seven men in the box just (which by the way is not in itself called stacking the line it is base D) to stop long runs by elite RB's--that simply isn't true.

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And reasons that you stack the line against last years Ravens', KC, Miami, Denver:...
Is because they had the elite RB's you said people should not be stacking against. Obviously where a team has no passing threat it makes the decision to stack easier. By the way, KC had over 4000 yds of passing last year--if people weren't scared of their nobody receivers they should have been cause they got burned enough.

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When the Lions stacked the line against the Texans, did Davis still get his 4 yards a carry????
Yeah as a matter of fact early in the game he did. DD's runs in the 1st series--5, 6, 5, 8, 5. Then he got fumbilitis and his play went down hill.

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Until Davis can bust out long runs, teams will continue to blitz...
Stacking the line and blitzing are not synonymous by the way.

To end this debate, I point you to a RB that was never known for his speed or for busting off long runs. Nonetheless he was the focus of an offense and teams commonly had stopping him as their primary game plan, which they did by at least keeping 7 men in the box, and by the way his team had a future hall of fame QB and WR as a threat as well--he also happens to have run for more yards than any other RB--Emmitt Smith.
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Old 09-29-2004   #25
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
You need to go back and watch those games again because the Texans were not dropping 8 on running plays. Sure if Holmes or LT came out they put someone on him, but that isn't what your original assertion was--that teams drop 7 or 8 guys back rather than leaving at least the normal seven men in the box just (which by the way is not in itself called stacking the line it is base D) to stop long runs by elite RB's--that simply isn't true.
Yeah, your right they werent dropping 8 on running plays but they were on pass plays to help stop LT/Holmes from catching the ball out of the backfield. By dropping 8 into coverage they showed that they werent going to let the RBs beat them. A year after LT averaged 6 catches a day for 7.3 yards per catch, the Texans droped 8 into coverage not because they were scared of Parker and Caldwell but because they were scared of L.T. and gave up 3 catches for -3 yards. And then they dropped 8 into coverage against the Chiefs because of Holmes and didnt allow him to catch a ball... So what I am saying is that if teams respected Davis' speed more they would bring more players closer to the line and may only bring 4 or 5 and that in turn would give Carr more time to throw...
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
Is because they had the elite RB's you said people should not be stacking against. Obviously where a team has no passing threat it makes the decision to stack easier. By the way, KC had over 4000 yds of passing last year--if people weren't scared of their nobody receivers they should have been cause they got burned enough.
They shouldnt but teams do and the runners destroy them with long runs to take off the pressure....
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Yeah as a matter of fact early in the game he did. DD's runs in the 1st series--5, 6, 5, 8, 5. Then he got fumbilitis and his play went down hill.
He did start out nicely but I would rather have a back that gets better as the game goes on (not saying Hollings is that type of back)...
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Originally Posted by infantrycak
Stacking the line and blitzing are not synonymous by the way.
They are not synonymous by they are linked. Teams that stack the line are not going to bring saftey support and then drop the saftey back into coverage most of the time. Teams that stack the line show no respect for the running backs ability to hurt them with long runs and/or the ability to take a short dump off and make it into a big gain....
Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak
To end this debate, I point you to a RB that was never known for his speed or for busting off long runs. Nonetheless he was the focus of an offense and teams commonly had stopping him as their primary game plan, which they did by at least keeping 7 men in the box, and by the way his team had a future hall of fame QB and WR as a threat as well--he also happens to have run for more yards than any other RB--Emmitt Smith.
Season long runs of 48, 75, 68, 62, 46, 60, 42, 44, 32, 63, 52, 44....Smith busted off a good amount of good sized runs...
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Old 09-29-2004   #26
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FIddy, do you have some type of beef with DD or what is it. DD is not a Portis, J Lewis, or whoever else but what do you want out of him? Have you been watching the games, DD is the Texans biggest threat so far this year and he is being stacked against, not because they dont think he can break runs but because the Houston passing game has not showed many deep downfield plays or a consitent completion of passes. Who do you know that doesnt stack the line vs a good RB? That made no sense and when did you see the Texans rush 3 and drop 8 on any running down against KC, or SD? That cant be true because they basically never drop Babin.Just because the LBs dont blitz it doesnt mean that they are dropped, maybe that means that the Texans LBs played their respective gaps to fill the running lanes instead of overpusueing on the blitz and then getting burnt. No they Texans have not blitzed alot, but they sertantly dont drop 8 players on a regular basis.


One more thing, I think that you are too stuck on top speed. I personally believe that DD best attribute is the attribute that makes or breaks running backs. He has great vision and the ability to make people miss. If speed was all that counted, why not get a horrible CB in the 6th or 7th round, let them run a 4.4 and put them at RB see how well that works. Speed does have something to do with breaking runs but since when has J.Lewis been a speedster or S. Davis or J. Bettis in his prime, but they broke long runs. J.Rice is not a very fast receiver but I bet he made more deep plays than practicaly any one in history. Speed isnt everything, it isnt even half.
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Old 09-29-2004   #27
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FIddy, do you have some type of beef with DD or what is it. DD is not a Portis, J Lewis, or whoever else but what do you want out of him? Have you been watching the games, DD is the Texans biggest threat so far this year and he is being stacked against, not because they dont think he can break runs but because the Houston passing game has not showed many deep downfield plays or a consitent completion of passes. Who do you know that doesnt stack the line vs a good RB? That made no sense and when did you see the Texans rush 3 and drop 8 on any running down against KC, or SD? That cant be true because they basically never drop Babin.Just because the LBs dont blitz it doesnt mean that they are dropped, maybe that means that the Texans LBs played their respective gaps to fill the running lanes instead of overpusueing on the blitz and then getting burnt. No they Texans have not blitzed alot, but they sertantly dont drop 8 players on a regular basis.


One more thing, I think that you are too stuck on top speed. I personally believe that DD best attribute is the attribute that makes or breaks running backs. He has great vision and the ability to make people miss. If speed was all that counted, why not get a horrible CB in the 6th or 7th round, let them run a 4.4 and put them at RB see how well that works. Speed does have something to do with breaking runs but since when has J.Lewis been a speedster or S. Davis or J. Bettis in his prime, but they broke long runs. J.Rice is not a very fast receiver but I bet he made more deep plays than practicaly any one in history. Speed isnt everything, it isnt even half.
No I dont have a beef with him, I just feel that there could be a talent upgrade at the spot. What is so different between Staley and Davis??? Not much and you dont see the Steelers salivating over Staley. And I know that he isnt Portis but some of the people on this board thinks he is, remember before the season a lot of you guys thought that Davis could rush for 1700 yards??? And the biggest THREAT this year has been Andre Johnson. Here is an excerpt from an article published before the Chiefs game:
Quote:
While the Chiefs are well aware of Carr and Davis' talent, Johnson will be the scariest player in a Texans uniform.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/football/nfl/kansas_city_chiefs/9734023.htm

No downfield plays??? Andre Johnson had 2 downfield plays against the Chiefs. And had another downfield play against the Lions along with Bradford.

I see the Texans dropping 8 all the time. I sit in my chair and watch and wait for it to happen and it always does. One of the reasons the Texans are giving up such a high amount of 3rd and long plays on defense is because they dont bring more then 3 guys a good amount of the time....

Jamal Lewis is fast, he ran a 4.45 40 when he came out of college...
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...ers/21894.html

Yeah, Rice made plays but Davis hasnt shown that he can make those long plays...

And I am stuck on speed because it can open up a offense so much more. Do you think if we had a healthy Micheal Bennett in the backfield teams would still blitz us as often??? I dont think so....
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Old 09-30-2004   #28
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I see the Texans dropping 8 all the time. I sit in my chair and watch and wait for it to happen and it always does. One of the reasons the Texans are giving up such a high amount of 3rd and long plays on defense is because they dont bring more then 3 guys a good amount of the time....
.
The Texans do drop some of the front 7 at times, but as you say, it is on 3rd and long, i.e. passing downs. That is not the situation that started this conversation which was dropping eight not for the purpose of pass protection but to make sure that elite backs don't break off long runs. Teams just don't do that--it is much easier for the LB's to tackle a RB as they pass in between the OLmen or to gang tackle than it is to make open field tackles. You never want to give a guy that is a running threat room to work in. You don't think DD is fast enough to be an elite RB--I think that is an overgeneralization, but if you recall before the season we agreed that AJ had a much better chance to go to the pro-bowl so we are in agreement that he is the biggest threat on the team. That said, this dropping guys to stop RB's down field thing isn't NFL reality.
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Old 10-03-2004   #29
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i came in here to rip you for the title but after readimg it i agree wit you
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