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Old 05-13-2004   #21
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Carr clearly needs to improve. If you are suggesting "being tough", or having a good attitude is enough to pay franchise money...then, fine. Who can argue that? I would like to see some 3rd down conversions myself.
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Old 05-13-2004   #22
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Vinny, when a quality NFL offense is put around Carr, I'm sure you'll see some conversions. Heck, even TDs. Maybe this season, that's what I'm thinking.
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Old 05-13-2004   #23
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Originally Posted by Lucky
Vinny, when a quality NFL offense is put around Carr, I'm sure you'll see some conversions. Heck, even TDs. Maybe this season, that's what I'm thinking.
I do too and I think aj. does also. I think he was just referring to those posts earlier that compared Carr to Manning (and like it or not, right now, he just does not compare with true franchise QB's based on production). Frankly, I wish to give him a clean slate of sorts. He has been a bit handicapped to date and we now have a NFL line that will give both running game and our passing game a chance. We roll in to camp with RBís we feel good about, upgraded our TEís and will not line up a journeyman at any starting position. I just feel that if he played better (like a franchise QB) last year we would have beaten a couple of more teams. Carr has nearly 30 NFL starts. This is his 3rd NFL camp. I look for big things this year.
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Old 05-13-2004   #24
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This will either be his break-out year, or his break-down year. He has to go one way or the other. The Texans IMO, have given him enough tools to use this year. Hes got the WR's, hes got a good line going, and now, a great RB option.

And as far as the "he hasnt earned it" crud. Thats what it is, crud. He has done everything and more, that the Texans expect out of him. In case you guys didnt notice, football is one of the few sports that is a team game. Hes not LeBron, and this isnt basketball.
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Old 05-13-2004   #25
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I think Carr himself knows what lies ahead of him. If he works hard and continues to be the leader of this team, big dividends will be earned. If not, then he has nothing to stand on. I think he is expecting big improvement over this year. Overall I think the team has the same attitude.
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Old 05-13-2004   #26
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I'm sure the Browns thought Tim Couch would play his entire career with them. I'm also pretty sure the Panthers felt the same way about Kerry Collins after he took them to the NFC Championship Game in just his second season.
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Old 05-13-2004   #27
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By the time Carr's cap hit escalates to the $7-8 million range, guys like McNabb, Culpepper, Vick, McNair, Farve (if he's still playing), and of course Manning's contracts will dwarf those numbers
I hate to tell you this, but Carr's cap hit is over 7 million next year. It's not some far away future number. It's here.

As far as comparisons to other QBs, It's not fair to compare the contracts of 7+ year vets who have led their team to the playoffs or won SB's to a guy in the 3rd or 4th year of his rookie contract. Vick is the only valid comparison of the ones you list (as is Leftwich, Palmer, Harrington, and Ramsey) since they're only a year apart.

Carr will make more than Vick in the first three years of their respective contracts. Carr will make $16.25 million in the first three years of his contract and Vick made $15.3 million (they have the same agent - Mike Sullivan).


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I guess Carr taking a record number of sacks behind the worst O-line in NFL history means nothing to you..
Far from it. The first year was a gimme as far as I'm concerned, a free ride. What that meant to me was that we had a terrible OL and Carr got the **** beat out of him.


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Would any of the QBs I've listed above have taken the Texans to the playoffs in the 1st two season?..
Probably not, but I'm not sure what that has to do with what Carr's salary will be in 2005.


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Bash Carr for this, that, and the other thing, but the earning it stuff is a load. He's earned his money thus far...
Who's bashing Carr? Did I say he didn't earn his salary in '02 and '03? No. What I did say is that he's not a top ten QB. Sure, he could become one this year, but that's not a given. What's a given is that his salary is about to become a top ten salary so (and what I said earlier was) his performance on the field better warrant that salary. In other words, "he will become very expensive next year so he better start earning it" as opposed to the way I looked at it the first two seasons, i.e., cut him some slack (but still expect steady improvement) because they were learning years and he had marginal talent around him.


Just in case you haven't noticed me say this at any time over the last two years, I like Carr. It's just that I expect a lot more out of him now (like throwing more TDs than Ints for starters) since he is beginning to get paid like a big time QB.

Last edited by aj.; 05-13-2004 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 05-13-2004   #28
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I never considered Tim Couch or Collins to be a better QB than Carr coming out of college. I don't think Carson is any better either. Time will tell, but DC should be a Texan for life.
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Old 05-13-2004   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wags
I never considered Tim Couch or Collins to be a better QB than Carr coming out of college.
Couch outplayed Carr his first year. He was also on an expansion team and had Chris Palmer as his Offensive coach too. Couch had more TD's than INT's in his first year. Carr has yet to pull this off.
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Old 05-13-2004   #30
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Well, Aikman had more INT's than TD's his first two years (9td,18int and 11td,18int) and still had a good career. I don't put much stock in first year stats. Going into the draft I didn't think Couch or Palmer were great #1 overall picks. I firmly believe Carson will be a bust in his NFL career.
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Old 05-13-2004   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj.
...but like I said, he better start earning it because he's not a top ten QB and his salary is about to become just that.

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Originally Posted by aj.
Who's bashing Carr? Did I say he didn't earn his salary in '02 and '03? No.
Maybe you didn't say that Carr hadn't earned his money to date. But to me, your using the phrase "start earning it" implied that Carr hadn't done so thus far. You didn't actually mean that, so my inference was faulty. But that was where my point was coming from.

Sure, Carr needs to earn his money in the future via his performance and the teams success. So to some extent do the rest of the top salary guys like Glenn, Walker, Robaire, AJ, etc. But, Carr's success or failure is directly tied to that of the organization, Casserly on down. Carr's development would be a validation for Casserly & Capers. Carr becoming a disappointment would have a trickle down effect because heís the signature player. Iím putting my money (tickets, apparel, internet wagers) where my keyboard is, and saying that the Texans are right and that Carr will be a big winner.

Last edited by Lucky; 05-13-2004 at 03:15 PM. Reason: I can't write
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Old 05-13-2004   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Maybe you didn't say that Carr hadn't earned his money to date. But to me, your using the phrase "start earning it" implied that Carr hadn't done so thus far..
Yeah, I can see where that might have been confusing. Sorry I wasn't clearer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky
Sure, Carr needs to earn his money in the future via his performance and the teams success. So to some extent do the rest of the top salary guys like Glenn, Walker, Robaire, AJ, etc...
Glenn and Walker are Pro Bowlers. They still need to perform to justify their salaries but they have earned star status...something that Carr still needs to work on.

Agree that Robaire (and Wade) both need to perform at a very high level for a few years to get satisfactory return on investment.

AJ's contract is really quite manageable throughout its term... no major jumps in base or backloading. He has one voidable year in '09.

The top five Texans cap numbers this year are:

Sharper, Jamie $6,125,000
Glenn, Aaron $5,150,000
Coleman, Marcus $4,305,750
Payne, Seth $4,175,000
Wong, Kailee $3,800,000
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Old 05-13-2004   #33
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Personally, I think Carr deserves every dime he gets. So what if he owns the record for being sacked in a season (76). Everyone grows at different rates. Personally he has a better arm than Vick. Vick likes to throw the long ball to much. Carr can make all the throws. I know I mat step on toes with this but oh well. If someone is truely a fan, they wouldn't worry about what a players cap figure is.
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Old 05-13-2004   #34
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Originally Posted by steve_rutledge
If someone is truely a fan, they wouldn't worry about what a players cap figure is.
Unfortunately with the salary cap you do have to worry about your players cap hit, or he may be playing for another team later on. I like the salary cap, but there are going to be a lot less truly franchise players.
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Old 05-13-2004   #35
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Originally Posted by steve_rutledge
If someone is truely a fan, they wouldn't worry about what a players cap figure is.
As long as a player's performance is among the best, I don't have a problem with his pay being among the best. Maybe it's just me but I like to see bang for the buck. Since I buy season tickets, I like to see value and I expect to see performance that's commensurate to pay.
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Old 05-13-2004   #36
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Part of me agrees with steve that I'd rather not know what a player makes. But since there is a salary cap and teams do have to make decisions based as much on that as actual performance, it's better to know. The salary info provides some insight into why a team has to cut or not re-sign your favorite player and therefore reduces the criticism.

This may just be wishful thinking on my part, but when this CBA expires I'd like to see changes that would make it easier for a team to re-sign players they drafted. Such as having a player drafted by said team 5+ years prior count only 80% of his cap value on his 2nd contract (and beyond). This might make a player more likely to stay with his original team, and keep some continuity. I'd also like to see more of the "pay for play" bonus money become available. Maybe reduce (or not grow) the rookie pool and give more cash to the young guys who actually perform, regardless of where they're drafted.
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Old 05-13-2004   #37
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Quote:
If someone is truely a fan, they wouldn't worry about what a players cap figure is.
OK, you just got two other responses on this so don't take this as a dog pile, but with a hard cap there are really two ends to the worries (1) one paying too much for a player that underperforms (the worry seeing that Carr has not yet performed at top 10 level but will soon get paid that way) and (2) paying a player so much that the team suffers more from the cap than it does from his talent (Peyton Manning).

If a QB is just going to be a yeoman game manager then he needs to get less money to put players around him that make them look better. If a QB is going to suck up 25% of the team's cap, they better be able to get scrubs to score 35 pts per game or they aren't worth it. Hopefully, Carr's character and hard work turns into on field performance justifying the money he is set to earn.
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Old 05-13-2004   #38
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I understand that you got to look at the cap and a player should perform what he is paid but honestly, i don't worry about the cap. The cap is a good thing cuz if it wasn't in place, ticket prices would skyrocket.
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Old 05-13-2004   #39
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A great thing about being an NFL fan is you can be a fan in different ways. Some guys like to comb over every angle of the NFL from ownership and cap issues to the color scheme. Some guys just like the game itself and the complexity of 11 men working together on the field at once. Some people just like rah-rah stuff and only love the excitement of the atmosphere and donít want to bother with issues such as pay.

Most of us love it all, but you can be a fan of the NFL in many different ways. One of the deeper ways to follow the NFL is thru the cap and management structure. If you like to see why guys are let go, get traded, or get released, then you will look into pay issues more often than the casual fan. It all depends on the level of complexity you want to experience. One day your favorite player will get cut or released and you will not understand why. Someone like aj. may come along and explain it to you if you do not choose to follow or understand the cap. Enjoy the diversity each fan brings. It is not a bad thing. It is a good thing.
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Old 05-14-2004   #40
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Originally Posted by steve_rutledge
The cap is a good thing cuz if it wasn't in place, ticket prices would skyrocket.
The cap and revenue sharing is a good thing because, unlike MLB, it helps level the playing field financially between all 32 teams. It eliminates (theoretically at least) the have's and have nots. If you liked the age of dynasties, it's possible that you don't like the age of salary cap, however, as teams get smarter in how to manage the cap, it's possible to have teams make multiple runs at greatness year after year.

I don't really get off to this cap stuff, I just do it because it's such an integral part of team/organizational decisions. I started doing it because I saw a lot of questions and comments coming from people (who didn't pay attention to cap) like "why didn't we go sign player x?" Knowing where the team sits financially helps you understand whether some of that stuff is even possible.

I prefer to go to games, talk x's and o's, read about the NFL, watch old games/highlights on tv, tailgate, and do all the rest of the normal fan stuff much more than I "like" doing the cap ****ola. If fact, I thought seriously about discontinuing the cap sheet earlier this year because it is absolutely not a labor of love and it's very difficult to come by accurate information unless you have insider contacts which I have very few. What I don't like is putting inaccurate information out there and as you can read from the disclaimer on the cap sheet, there are inaccuracies in the sheet that I haven't been able to reconcile. That's why I always welcome help from those who might have some insider info.

Last edited by aj.; 05-14-2004 at 12:20 PM.
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