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View Poll Results: Should the Washington Redskins change their name?
Yes 33 28.70%
No 82 71.30%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-25-2014   #301
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dread-Head View Post
I got a few. Use the top one for: The Mobile Mexicans if Alabama ever gets an NFL team.

Let's take a look at the bottom ones: The Newark Negroes! New Jersey needs more football!

or

The Newark Coloreds!
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Old 06-25-2014   #302
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
If someone really wants to challenge themselves by looking beyond their own internal thought processes, consider this scenario:

The NFL grants an expansion team to San Antonio.

The owner/city decides to "honor" Hispanics (as a whole) by calling the team the San Antonio Brownskins.

The logo on the side of the helmet is a sombrero. Like this one:



And every created 'tradition' includes stereotyping ALL Hispanic and Latin American cultures into simple cartoonish caricatures.

I wonder how "honored" all Hispanics would feel with such a thing?[/i]
I wonder if 90%+ won't find it offensive. I wonder if the local LULAC chapters will write in voicing their approval of said franchise.

(for those that missed the thread in the NSZ, this comparison was tried with African Americans)

The unlikelihood of those two events happening should tell you all you need to know about the validity of the comparison.
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Old 06-25-2014   #303
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Dread-Head View Post
I got a few. Use the top one for: The Mobile Mexicans if Alabama ever gets an NFL team.

Let's take a look at the bottom ones: The Newark Negroes! New Jersey needs more football!

Let's give LA a new team and call the The L.A. Asians!
Waka Waka! I got a MILLION of 'em!

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Originally Posted by StarStruck View Post
or

The Newark Coloreds!
Now y'all are getting the hang of it!

And as long as we insist these racial stereotypes are solely to "honor" these different ethnic groups (as well as provide some random ambiguous polls), then all is well.

And since historical connection seems to be very important for some folks to justify things, we have some deep history to pick from.

For instance, the The Newark Negroes! or The Newark Coloreds! could use this historically accurate adaptation for mascots:



It is all about "honoring" people, amirite?

And why is that any different than this?



"[Redskins owner Dan] Snyder and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell have grandfathered in Chief Zee, tone-deaf to the caricaturing of an ethnic minority."
~ Mike Wise


p.s. Zema Williams seems like a really nice man, so this is not a personal attack on him. Image just used to illustrate a point.
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Old 06-25-2014   #304
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
I wonder if 90%+ won't find it offensive. I wonder if the local LULAC chapters will write in voicing their approval of said franchise.

(for those that missed the thread in the NSZ, this comparison was tried with African Americans)

The unlikelihood of those two events happening should tell you all you need to know about the validity of the comparison.
Because 90 percent of women either do not want it or do not care.
~ Anti-Suffrage Women Fought Against the Vote

Did you know that many women were against universal suffrage? Did that make universal suffrage wrong?

A majority on the wrong side of an issue doesn't make it right.

There is a really good point made in this article:
Quote:
Basically, for those of us who aren't Native American (which basically means the vast majority of the people who reading this), I don't think we have the right to use images of headdresses, tomahawks, tribe names, and so on. It's not a question of whether such symbols are offensive, or whether they perpetuate outdated stereotypes; it's that they don't belong to us. If a non-Jewish group used a menorah or a Star of David in its marketing, wouldn't that raise a few eyebrows? Ditto for a non-military group using a Purple Heart. And if those examples don't pass the smell test, neither does a sports team using Native American iconography.
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Old 06-25-2014   #305
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by StarStruck View Post
or

The Newark Coloreds!
No no...The CHARLSTON Coloreds!
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Old 06-25-2014   #306
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post



It is all about "honoring" people, amirite?
.
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Okay...for the sake of clarification I find this offensive. I'd be more offended at this were it happening NOW than I am by stuff done in the 20s and 30s. I can put that in context to where it irks me but I can find it funny. Part of the reason I found The Three Stooges funny (and Abbot and Costello) was because they would occasionally feature black actors/singers in a non stereotypical fashion rather than simply putting white actors in black face for a laugh.
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Old 06-25-2014   #307
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

.. or consider this scenario. Red Mesa H.S. that is predominately Navajo changing their mascot to "honor" white people instead?

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Old 06-25-2014   #308
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Hookem Horns View Post
.. or consider this scenario. Red Mesa H.S. that is predominately Navajo changing their mascot to "honor" white people instead?
This is what I was thinking...

Charleston Crackers
Birmingham Bubbas
Honolulu Honkies
Riverside Rednecks
Pittsburgh Peckerwood
Georgetown Gringos
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Old 06-25-2014   #309
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookem Horns View Post
.. or consider this scenario. Red Mesa H.S. that is predominately Navajo changing their mascot to "honor" white people instead?

But that would only honor southern whites
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Old 06-25-2014   #310
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Because 90 percent of women either do not want it or do not care.
~ Anti-Suffrage Women Fought Against the Vote

Did you know that many women were against universal suffrage? Did that make universal suffrage wrong?

A majority on the wrong side of an issue doesn't make it right.

There is a really good point made in this article:
Hmm, an issue that was denying fundamental rights that ended up getting a constitutional amendment vs. a Pro Football franchise name.

You can keep searching for a valid comparison, but I doubt one will be easy to find. This whole thing is fairly unique. It's what makes this issue fun to watch...on both sides.
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Old 06-25-2014   #311
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
This is what I was thinking...

Charleston Crackers
They can play indoors and call their stadium the "Cracker Box".
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Old 06-25-2014   #312
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Dread-Head View Post
Okay...for the sake of clarification I find this offensive. I'd be more offended at this were it happening NOW than I am by stuff done in the 20s and 30s. I can put that in context to where it irks me but I can find it funny. Part of the reason I found The Three Stooges funny (and Abbot and Costello) was because they would occasionally feature black actors/singers in a non stereotypical fashion rather than simply putting white actors in black face for a laugh.
I hope you know that I did not intend or mean for it to offend anyone. It was solely to illustrate a point of caricaturing the culture of an ethnic minority. I know (at least hope) you most likely know my intentions, but just wanted to clarify and make sure we're all good.

I do not think folks that are for keeping the name are bad people in any sort of way. I completely understand their perspectives and most likely would have agreed with them two decades ago. I think a lot of us are a bit calloused and a little insensitive to something that has always existed, so it can be tough to truly be objective about it. Especially when it does not impact me or offend me.

My change of heart over the years is based on principle. I think the disregard for other people's cultures happens with a so-called 'melting pot' society like the U.S. Everything gets melted down to lowest common denominator mentality and we lose sight of the depth and richness of various traditions within each culture and sub-culture. And we can also lose sight of basic ideas like cultural caricatures and how that impacts individuals within those cultures.

Quite a few folks have told me "it's just a word, get over it". My reply is that sure, it's 'just a word', so why do you defend it so passionately? That road goes both ways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
Hmm, an issue that was denying fundamental rights that ended up getting a constitutional amendment vs. a Pro Football franchise name.

You can keep searching for a valid comparison, but I doubt one will be easy to find. This whole thing is fairly unique. It's what makes this issue fun to watch...on both sides.
It was not an attempt to compare issues, but rather I deflated your assertion of support percentages as a way of justifying a given issue.

I found valid comparison, so no additional searching is required. Did you not see the blackface up there? I'm sure you will try to wiggle out of that one, but I do not see much difference.

Why is it okay for you to stereotype Native Americans but not all Asians like below?



Or how about this, which is directly applicable with the term Yellowface:



"Yellowface is another example of the racism prevalent in American culture."


But I suppose it is okay as long as we ACT like it is "honoring" all Asians.
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Old 06-25-2014   #313
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
Or how about this, which is directly applicable with the term Yellowface:



"Yellowface is another example of the racism prevalent in American culture."
Reminded me of Pekin high school in Illinois

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Old 06-25-2014   #314
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Hookem Horns View Post
Believe it or not, it used to be.

There you go. And as long as we can show historical usage and a poll that Asians are okay with it, then it's all good, especially if we all ACT like it is "honoring" their cultures.

Amazing the stretches folks will reach for in justifying basic stereotypes. I guess whatever they need to do to make themselves feel better about being on the wrong side of an issue.
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Old 06-25-2014   #315
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Vance87 View Post
But that would only honor southern whites
Us southern whites are like our own tribe in some ways ..lol.
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Old 06-25-2014   #316
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
No, as that's nowhere near a valid comparison.

Annenberg didn't change their methodology just for this poll, it was a known limitation of their process. No hidden agenda, nothing nefarious.

The survey completely missed out on 4.5% of the Native American population, almost all of it in Alaska. The Inuit are far more likely to consider the word Eskimo derogatoary than Redksin.
I didn't say that they intentionally changed the methodology. I said that not polling Alaska affected the results. As did only polling land lines (which a majority of Indians living on reservations don't have). As did the poll being 10 years old. I don't feel the same about the issue today as I did in 2004. People change their minds in 10 years. You can surmise that an Alaskan Native is more offended by the term Eskimo than the word Redskin -- but you have no proof, because nobody polled them.


What the man who ran that poll thinks about it:

Quote:
Do you think the issue was well-served in a survey of this size and nature, given all the variables involved regarding Native American identification, say, or lack of access to phones, or levels of disassociation from mainstream culture?

I donít think there was anything wrong with our methodology. All pollsters ask for self-identification on demographics from age to education to ethnicity to religion.... When someone says they are married, you donít ask for a marriage certificate. The question measured whether the respondents cared about the issue. The fault is in the interpretation given the poll by Dan Snyder and others. My answer when first questioned about this by Courtland Milloy of the The Washington Post stands; If you gave a dinner party for 20 and one person left unhappy because of something that was said or served and the other 19 had a jolly time, was your party a success? No, it was a failure.

Are you surprised by the teamís use of the poll?

I am surprised by the longevity of this poll. You donít often see people quoting polls that are nine years old. But itís the main thing that Snyder has to go on.

If you were the owner, would you change the name?

Of course I would change the name! Itís offensiveóabout as offensive as the way the team is playing today. I donít call them by the name they use, I refer to them as the Washington Unmentionables.
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Old 06-25-2014   #317
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Asians did not coin the phrase "Chinks" or use the word to describe each other. All of those lampoons are apples and oranges.

I am pretty sure however the Paleface team name and logo would be a huge hit with actual rednecks because they are in fact proud to be rednecks and would indeed be honored to have a team named after them, and a similar logo, only I did not see a bible in that logo so they would probably suggest that be added.

All of these extreme examples are nothing more than Daily Show theater that are not based in any kind of reality, because we know none of those team names would ever get passed the approval process. Even if by some miracle one did slip through, no fans would support, nor players play for them so it would be like throwing money in a fire. While these examples are mildly entertaining, they are far from helping. Just making a mockery of the discussion.

What solution do you guys have for the historical aspect of the Redskins team? Should all of their history be erased? No video footage should ever be played, nor articles be written that use the dreaded R word or the logo? I suppose in all fairness any wins the team has ever achieved or Super Bowls won should also be stripped?

Anyone caught wearing pre name change gear should not be allowed into the games, fined, jailed, or maybe scalped? What will the NFL do about throw back jerseys? Should fans ask for refunds for the Redskins gear they have purchased? How about trading cards that are valuable that contain the Redskins name and logo. Should card owners be forced to burn them, or perhaps better they should lose all of their value since no upstanding human being would ever own such a horrible item that denigrates Native Americans right?

If your answer is no to any of the above, and that the history remains intact, then the whole endeavor of changing the name is pointless. It's a good thing America does not have more pressing issues.
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Old 06-25-2014   #318
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Quote:
If you gave a dinner party for 20 and one person left unhappy because of something that was said or served and the other 19 had a jolly time, was your party a success? No, it was a failure.
He just went full retard.
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Old 06-26-2014   #319
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Double Barrel View Post
It was not an attempt to compare issues, but rather I deflated your assertion of support percentages as a way of justifying a given issue..
You didn't deflate any assertion as you compared dissimilar issues. Strawman much?

Quote:
I found valid comparison, so no additional searching is required. Did you not see the blackface up there? I'm sure you will try to wiggle out of that one, but I do not see much difference.
I don't need to wiggle and you have yet to find a valid comparison. Show me those NAACP chapters signing up to endorse racist names. Show me them naming their school mascots using those names.

Quote:
But I suppose it is okay as long as we ACT like it is "honoring" all Asians.
Here you go again, acting as if the Asian community somehow embraces the term.




Quote:
"The whole issue is so silly to me," says Bob Burns, my wife's father and a bundle holder in the Blackfeet tribe. "The name just doesn't bother me much. It's an issue that shouldn't be an issue, not with all the problems we've got in this country."

And I definitely don't know how I'll tell the athletes at Wellpinit (Wash.) High School -- where the student body is 91.2 percent Native American -- that the "Redskins" name they wear proudly across their chests is insulting them. Because they have no idea.

"I've talked to our students, our parents and our community about this and nobody finds any offense at all in it," says Tim Ames, the superintendent of Wellpinit schools. "'Redskins' is not an insult to our kids. 'Wagon burners' is an insult. 'Prairie n-----s' is an insult. Those are very upsetting to our kids. But 'Redskins' is an honorable name we wear with pride. Ö In fact, I'd like to see somebody come up here and try to change it."
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Old 06-26-2014   #320
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

Honest question (since I'm such a smartass at times I'll make sure you know this is a serious question)...was the term "redskin" ever an insult? A bunch of the terms that we are comparing the name to was/is clearly an insult. For example I've been called a chink and it was always used in a way to insult me, so I know that's an insult. When it comes to the term 'redskin' I've never heard anyone casually in person, on TV, or in print ever call anyone a 'redskin' in a derog manner. Are we just making this an insult (for a cause) when it was never really ever used as one?
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