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View Poll Results: Should the Washington Redskins change their name?
Yes 33 28.70%
No 82 71.30%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-22-2014   #261
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
...link no workie
Sorry, I fixed the link.
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Old 06-22-2014   #262
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Hookem Horns View Post
Thanks Nitro, that interesting and ironic because it sounds similar to the origin of another word.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/n*gger (replace the * to see the link)



http://www.aaregistry.org/historic_e...-brief-history

Just like the word above, redskin too became a derogatory word used by whites. Interesting how both started as just referring to someone by their skin color.
Well then I suppose the same could be true for any word and there are those that use the word in a derogatory or demeaning fashion. Being hyper sensitive to every word that may or may not be used by a minority of people to describe certain people even though no malice was intended is the problem of the offended person IMHO. I guess it all comes down to how the word us used, and the tone used. I imagine if I tried hard enough I could be offended when someone describes me as a Caucasian, especially if they emphasized their tone and inflection.

The article points out the term was coined by Native Americans as was entirely benign. That some chose to use it as a derogatory term in certain time periods after it was created does not make the word derogatory. Are you suggesting the word is used in a derogatory manner in modern times when people say "Hail to the Redskins"?

The N word is entirely different. It was not coined by blacks to describe themselves, but rather was a label placed on them by their oppressors solely for the purpose of denigration. Trying to compare Redskins to the N word is absurd IMHO.

If people are that offended (and I suggest it is actually a small minority) then stop going to the games, stop buying the gear, or supporting the team in any manner instead of expecting the majority to accept the minorities view that the term is a slur when they do not see as such.

Surely by now someone could demonstrate that the majority of Native Americans find it offensive if that were actually the case? But after all of these years, they cannot demonstrate that, which should say something about authenticity of the alleged outrage. This is a case of the minority trying to force their will on the majority for reasons other than stated.

The origin of the word is benign, and while it may have been used by a minority as a derogatory term for a shot span of time, it surely is not used in that manner today. But rather as a term of respect for the strength and fighting spirit of Native Americans.

Why would someone name their team after something they saw as weak and inferior to themselves? That makes no sense. Teams are named after fearsome, strong, animals like Lions, Tigers and Bears, not Anteaters, Skunks and Butterflies. I could see the outrage if the teams name was the Washington Savages with the same logo, or the Washington Drunken Indians with a logo of a Native American chugging a bottle of Jack Daniels.

This world has far more challenging problems to solve than worrying about whether a footballs teams name is a slur to a tiny minority or not.
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Old 06-23-2014   #263
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
Why would someone name their team after something they saw as weak and inferior to themselves? That makes no sense. Teams are named after fearsome, strong, animals like Lions, Tigers and Bears, not Anteaters, Skunks and Butterflies. I could see the outrage if the teams name was the Washington Savages with the same logo, or the Washington Drunken Indians with a logo of a Native American chugging a bottle of Jack Daniels.
Not sure if I posted this in this thread or the other one, however the "redskin" to most whites back then was the enemy. A threat. They weren't viewed as honorable people, but redskin savages.

I don't think the name was given to the team to honor Indians either. It was more than likely taking the villain mascot approach. "We're the nasty Redskins coming for your scalp!".

I don't think white people viewed Indians as weak either however "fearsome" as you mentioned above. Many were intimidated by them. So I can see why a team would create a mascot from them.

Anyway, I stand by my stance here. I don't think people are being "overly sensitive" with this.

No matter how the word began it's not a flattering thing to call or refer to a NA as a "redskin" no matter how it's used. You would not say "I have some redskin friends ... etc".

Honestly, two friends of mine have helped me understand this better. Yvette who is NA has given us reasons on this board why that is offensive to them (a few times over) however I think she is avoiding these threads now because it was upsetting her.

I also have a white friend who lives in South Dakota, who lives in an area with a large population of Native Americans and doesn't particularly care for them in general. He has also told me that "redskin" is not a word you would use around them unless you want to get into a fight.

So I have that coming from a Native American. For those that know Yvette, she is genuine NA.

I also have that coming from a white guy that grew up and still lives around reservations and is admittedly somewhat racist against them.

Who am I to believe, them or side with people that are truly ignorant to this subject as I was because I grew in parts of the country where I hardly ever saw a NA (including Houston) until my grandparents took me to visit the Alabama-Coushatta reservation in Livingston.
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Old 06-23-2014   #264
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Old 06-23-2014   #265
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by kingtexan View Post
Change the name to Natives ... keep the logo.
I can live with that...
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Old 06-23-2014   #266
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Thorn View Post
So who is going to admit to voting "yes" on this?

I'm with the others who've posted so far, this PC crap can kiss my ass.
I voted yes.
Whutsittiya?


Sorry if what used to be considered common, everyday courtesy and good manners now upsets folks because the right has decided to left-ti-fy it by calling it "political correctness".
from Wiki...
Quote:
By the early 1990s, the term was adopted by US conservatives as a pejorative term for all manner of attempts to promote multiculturalism and identity politics, particularly, attempts to introduce new terms that sought to leave behind discriminatory baggage ostensibly attached to older ones, and conversely, to try to make older ones taboo
You folks that get upset by the term and/or idea of political correctness have been (and are being) royally PLAYED by the Right.

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Old 06-23-2014   #267
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
Why would someone name their team after something they saw as weak and inferior to themselves? That makes no sense. Teams are named after fearsome, strong, animals like Lions, Tigers and Bears, not Anteaters, Skunks and Butterflies.
Do you really perceive fearsome and strong when you see this logo?



It's a freakin' wimpy little bird that my domestic cat kills at least 2-3 a year.

These mascots are just used to market team identity.

And you hit the nail on the head without realizing that you undermined your own points.

Teams usually pick mascots that represent caricatures to stereotype the traits of fearsome and strong.

Redskins was originally chosen for the reasons Hookem mentioned. Native Americans were seen as bloodthirsty savages back then. Uncivilized brutes who had to endure government sanctioned genocide and theft of their lands. American citizens and government looked at most Indian tribes as unworthy to even honor treaties with, much less deserving of equality and respect.

Basically, folks back then saw them as ANIMALS, not people. This is why you see stereotypes of Native Americans.

American Indians were not the only group of people who where stereotyped. The others just fell out of favor. For instance:

Quote:
1934

The Zulu Cannibal Giants, an all-black baseball team that played in war paint and grass skirts, barnstorms around the country. Six years later, the Ethiopian Clowns continue the tradition of mixing baseball with comedy to appeal to white audiences.

Source
So, tell me why folks would name their team after cannibals?

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
I could see the outrage if the teams name was the Washington Savages with the same logo, or the Washington Drunken Indians with a logo of a Native American chugging a bottle of Jack Daniels.
Beyond the name, the inherent problem is one of stereotyping thousands of tribal customs into caricatures.

For instance, the war bonnet was a sacred symbol that had to be earned and was a great honor. Now, it's been reduced to a logo.

How do you think modern religious folks would feel if Jesus nailed to a cross was stereotyped to its lowest common denominator into a party favor or team logo? I'd bet it would upset a lot of people. Unfortunately, for Native Americans, they no longer have a lot of people left.

Like I said above, this issue is not one of being offended for me. It is simply a matter of principle and to rectify one small wrong in a long history of truly despicable and dishonorable treatment of indigenous peoples.
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Old 06-23-2014   #268
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Hookem Horns View Post
Anyway, I stand by my stance here. I don't think people are being "overly sensitive" with this.

No matter how the word began it's not a flattering thing to call or refer to a NA as a "redskin" no matter how it's used. You would not say "I have some redskin friends ... etc".
How about a current High School website?

http://rmusdhs.ss4.sharpschool.com/home
Redskins News, Redskins Sports.
Hmm, they're Navajo. How can that be? Are they denigrating their own people? Do they get a "usage exclusion"?
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Old 06-23-2014   #269
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Hookem Horns View Post
Not sure if I posted this in this thread or the other one, however the "redskin" to most whites back then was the enemy. A threat. They weren't viewed as honorable people, but redskin savages.

I don't think the name was given to the team to honor Indians either. It was more than likely taking the villain mascot approach. "We're the nasty Redskins coming for your scalp!".

I don't think white people viewed Indians as weak either however "fearsome" as you mentioned above. Many were intimidated by them. So I can see why a team would create a mascot from them.

Anyway, I stand by my stance here. I don't think people are being "overly sensitive" with this.

No matter how the word began it's not a flattering thing to call or refer to a NA as a "redskin" no matter how it's used. You would not say "I have some redskin friends ... etc".

Honestly, two friends of mine have helped me understand this better. Yvette who is NA has given us reasons on this board why that is offensive to them (a few times over) however I think she is avoiding these threads now because it was upsetting her.

I also have a white friend who lives in South Dakota, who lives in an area with a large population of Native Americans and doesn't particularly care for them in general. He has also told me that "redskin" is not a word you would use around them unless you want to get into a fight.

So I have that coming from a Native American. For those that know Yvette, she is genuine NA.

I also have that coming from a white guy that grew up and still lives around reservations and is admittedly somewhat racist against them.

Who am I to believe, them or side with people that are truly ignorant to this subject as I was because I grew in parts of the country where I hardly ever saw a NA (including Houston) until my grandparents took me to visit the Alabama-Coushatta reservation in Livingston.
While I respect your point of view, I disagree based on several factors. I too have some Native American blood in my ancestry, and I was born and raised in Tucson Arizona and spent a great deal of time with the Pascua Yaqui Tribe on the reservation about 15 miles southwest of downtown Tucson.

While it was some time ago (80's) we did once or twice discuss it directly, and not a single person was at all offended by the team name. And I can attest that it was not on their list of grievances. In fact some of them were actually fans of the team and wore the gear or had it hanging in their rooms.

In regards to starting a fight by calling someone a Redskin, it could happen sure, but the same can hold true with the N word. In their minds it is perfectly fine to call each other the word, but have another ethnic group call them that and it's game on. That is hypocrisy plain and simple. But if you are having an altercation with a Native American for whatever reason, and you use the word Redskin to try to inflame the situation then depending on the maturity of the person it could result in physical violence. But the same could be true if the Native American is having an altercation with a Caucasian for example and he used the word Caucasian in an inflammatory way. The racism or slur is conveyed by the individual and the way the word is delivered, not by the word itself.

So can it be used in a disrespectful or derogatory way? Of course, but you are not likely to convince many people today that the way the word is used when it comes to a professional sports team is meant in a derogatory way, nor should it be taken that way.

Seems to me it's white people who are more offended by the team name than actual Native Americans. Truth be told even referring to a Native American as an NA could be offensive, even though your intent was clearly not to be offensive and rather used NA for brevity.

I'm old enough and wise enough to know when people start calling you names, it's because they are insecure and are using it to mask it and appear strong because they feel challenged. So you can call me anything you like, and I as a grown man can be offended and want to fight, or I can understand the problem lies with the person attempting to use words to hurt me and if I react to them, then he wins, and I am as insecure as he is.

Words only have power if you give them power. And I would suggest anyone who thinks forcing a name change of the Redskins is going to solve racism, or make people who are offended by the use of the word less insecure is being naive, and yes, hyper sensitive.

So if the Native Americans as a whole wish to voice their displeasure with the use of the word Redskins as a teams name, then let's see them get out there in numbers and protest every game, call for boycotts, and ask fans to join them. If they cannot manage such demonstrations, then clearly it is not as important as some are making it out to be.

Here are some interesting recent articles discussing the issue.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/...ins-is-a-slur/

The comments are interesting on this article

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/04/03/washin...m-name-debate/

This one on Redskins website

http://www.redskins.com/news-and-eve...d-18d7fb768bb7
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Old 06-23-2014   #270
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by disaacks3 View Post
How about a current High School website?

http://rmusdhs.ss4.sharpschool.com/home
Redskins News, Redskins Sports.
Hmm, they're Navajo. How can that be? Are they denigrating their own people? Do they get a "usage exclusion"?
Great post, there are many Native American HS football teams named redskins also. The part the liberals are missing is that Native Americans are proud of their red skin, and it is how they refer to each other in an honorable way.
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Old 06-23-2014   #271
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post
Great post, there are many Native American HS football teams named redskins also. The part the liberals are missing is that Native Americans are proud of their red skin, and it is how they refer to each other in an honorable way.
So you are lumping me in with "liberals" because of my stance on this issue? Do you guys have to make everything about idiotic politics?

Again, I trust my friends on this issue for the reasons that I have already posted.

If some high school full of NA wants to go with that name then I guess you can ask them what their motive was. Maybe it was an in your face to white people or a way to take power away from a word that was so often used against them.

Honestly, I don't have a dog in this fight. I am just calling it as I personally see it.
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Old 06-23-2014   #272
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Do you guys have to make everything about idiotic politics?
This whole thing is about idiotic politics.
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Old 06-23-2014   #273
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

I read the Goddard piece a while back and I think you're missing some pretty key elements, Nitro.

In Goddard's essay he presents the etymology with some things that are worth noting. First, he says that the racialization of the word is attributable to Europeans. Additionally, he talks about the relative simultaneity of the words as a referent used by natives and by Europeans alike. Finally, he notes - specifically and pointedly - the "obliquial" nature of the word as a more "recent phenomenon" confirming it's status as a derisive slur.

Also, what you linked to in your post wasn't actually Goddard's article. That can actually be found here:

“I AM A RED-SKIN”: The Adoption of a Native American Expression (1769–1826)


So what's being presented here isn't the entire picture or the entire argument Goddard lays out. It's interesting that as often as I've seen this article referenced, few people have actually read it or, if they have, leave out some pretty relevant details.

Also, re: your comparison to the N-word - I don't think it really suits your argument if you want to endorse Goddard.

What you're advocating, through Goddard - the parts of his argument you want to use - is the relatively benign origination of the word. That is, the natives referring to their red skins as a distinguishing factor from the Europeans white skins. Right? That makes Hookem's response totally relevant, imo.

Okay. So now take a look at the etymology of the n-word. Also a descriptor, based on color - relative to the normative white of the Europeans. We know, however, that the origination based on skin color as a distinguishing primary feature has gone far beyond that and it's universally accepted as a slut. Right?

So by bringing in the n-word, you're talking about a color-based descriptor that grew into an objectionable slur.

How is that somehow qualitatively different from redskin? Because you're arguing that it was used as a self-referent? I don't understand how that difference (and using Goddard, that conclusion is more ambiguous than you seem to suggest) validates its current use as accepted.

What's also strange is that you're trying to argue that in present-day the term "Redskin" is typically associated with the NFL team - so you seem to be arguing that chronological context is important. It reads as an attempt to have your cake and eat it, too. Historical context applies when it was originally conceived and was benign (which is, even upon reading Goddard, somewhat selective). Historical context applies to the contemporary use when it's benign (which is also, I think, selective - I would also take issue with your comment above that those taking offense are negligible). But historical context for the vast majority of the word's existence when it was not benign and was used as a slur? No, we can't use that time period.

That strikes me as an argument of convenience.

Of course, even the latter part of my post is only related to the etymology as you flatly present it.

I'd counter with what I think is more important, and what I led with, namely that there are elements of Goddard's work that have some bearing on the discussion but aren't apparent.

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Old 06-23-2014   #274
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

In one of these message board forums, I was told that if I didn't like the sight of 2 gay men kissing on tv, I should look the other way or change the channel. I was told that everyone has the right to do what they want, to include being gay or to get married. So why doesn't this theory apply to other areas in life? If you don't like the Redskins name, don't watch them or buy their merchandise. If Daniel Snyder wants to call his team Redskins then he should have that right. The same as 2 homos who want to smooch on my tv screen.

To hell with all this political correct bull****.
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Old 06-23-2014   #275
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Hookem Horns View Post
So you are lumping me in with "liberals" because of my stance on this issue? Do you guys have to make everything about idiotic politics?

Again, I trust my friends on this issue for the reasons that I have already posted.

If some high school full of NA wants to go with that name then I guess you can ask them what their motive was. Maybe it was an in your face to white people or a way to take power away from a word that was so often used against them.

Honestly, I don't have a dog in this fight. I am just calling it as I personally see it.
You are offended, and assume I was calling you a liberal, or lumping you in even though I clearly did not direct that particular comment at you. This is perfect evidence of how someone can be offended even though the language was not directed at them. You left out the part at the beginning where I said I respected your point of view.

The comments regarding liberals was directed at liberals, who in my estimation are behind this movement. And as my proof I cited plenty of Native Americans who have taken the time to voice their opinion, and even Native American schools where the same name is used to represent their sports teams, whereas the opposition seems to be coming more from white liberals with a few Native Americans sprinkled in here and there.

Point being that anyone can be offended for any reason, and while society wastes time talking about a football teams name, people are starving, suffering from mental disorders, are homeless, etc., and it seems a bit selfish to me to be wasting time on this sort of thing.

I find it hard to believe that Native American kids, or adults are having trouble getting out of bed each day, or coping with daily life because an NFL team is named the Redskins.

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Originally Posted by RazorOye View Post
I read the Goddard piece a while back and I think you're missing some pretty key elements, Nitro.

In Goddard's essay he presents the etymology with some things that are worth noting. First, he says that the racialization of the word is attributable to Europeans. Additionally, he talks about the relative simultaneity of the words as a referent used by natives and by Europeans alike. Finally, he notes - specifically and pointedly - the "obliquial" nature of the word as a more "recent phenomenon" confirming it's status as a derisive slur.

Also, what you linked to in your post wasn't actually Goddard's article. That can actually be found here:

“I AM A RED-SKIN”: The Adoption of a Native American Expression (1769–1826)


So what's being presented here isn't the entire picture or the entire argument Goddard lays out. It's interesting that as often as I've seen this article referenced, few people have actually read it or, if they have, leave out some pretty relevant details.

Also, re: your comparison to the N-word - I don't think it really suits your argument if you want to endorse Goddard.

What you're advocating, through Goddard - the parts of his argument you want to use - is the relatively benign origination of the word. That is, the natives referring to their red skins as a distinguishing factor from the Europeans white skins. Right? That makes Hookem's response totally relevant, imo.

Okay. So now take a look at the etymology of the n-word. Also a descriptor, based on color - relative to the normative white of the Europeans. We know, however, that the origination based on skin color as a distinguishing primary feature has gone far beyond that and it's universally accepted as a slut. Right?

So by bringing in the n-word, you're talking about a color-based descriptor that grew into an objectionable slur.

How is that somehow qualitatively different from redskin? Because you're arguing that it was used as a self-referent? I don't understand how that difference (and using Goddard, that conclusion is more ambiguous than you seem to suggest) validates its current use as accepted.

What's also strange is that you're trying to argue that in present-day the term "Redskin" is typically associated with the NFL team - so you seem to be arguing that chronological context is important. It reads as an attempt to have your cake and eat it, too. Historical context applies when it was originally conceived and was benign (which is, even upon reading Goddard, somewhat selective). Historical context applies to the contemporary use when it's benign (which is also, I think, selective - I would also take issue with your comment above that those taking offense are negligible). But historical context for the vast majority of the word's existence when it was not benign and was used as a slur? No, we can't use that time period.

That strikes me as an argument of convenience.

Of course, even the latter part of my post is only related to the etymology as you flatly present it.

I'd counter with what I think is more important, and what I led with, namely that there are elements of Goddard's work that have some bearing on the discussion but aren't apparent.
I appreciate the extremely detailed reply and I acknowledge your points, and if I were so inclined I could argue them point by point. But as I said in the message above, I feel this is a waste of not only my time, but certainly the time of our nation when it appears that the Native Americans themselves for the the most part are not offended, and indeed use the name themselves in various ways including HS sports teams.

So until there comes a time when the Native Americans can organize a movement that is represented by actual Native Americans and not liberal activists who feel the need to right the wrongs of the world one trivial issue at a time, I am not going to worry about it, or waste the kind of time it would require to debate such an issue.

What Caucasians think is irrelevant, and people like Bob Costas, and Peter King are not in it because they are offended Native Americans, or even because they are outraged in some manner IMO, and I find their expressed offense to be more self serving than genuinely concerned for Native Americans feelings.
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Old 06-24-2014   #276
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Nitrofish View Post

So until there comes a time when the Native Americans can organize a movement that is represented by actual Native Americans and not liberal activists...
Here are approximately 3 million Natives for you http://www.changethemascot.org/supporters-of-change/

And your assertion that liberals are behind this is bunk. Natives have been against this name since the very beginning. No one listened back then, no one gave a damn.

I've said everything I have to say.
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Old 06-24-2014   #277
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by Yvette View Post
Here are approximately 3 million Natives for you http://www.changethemascot.org/supporters-of-change/

And your assertion that liberals are behind this is bunk. Natives have been against this name since the very beginning. No one listened back then, no one gave a damn.

I've said everything I have to say.
Yvette is a very interesting tribal name. What tribe did it originate from?

I do not really have the time right now to browse all the information on the link you provided, but I will spend more time when I can. I did quickly browse through it and I did not see any mention of 3 million Native Americans who support the name change, but what I did notice is a whole bunch of non Native Americans, especially the elected officials that all but one have a D after their name. leading with the countries biggest liberal Barrack Obama, and followed by the likes of Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi, and well known race baiters such as Rev. Jesse Jackson, and the always popular Rev. Al Sharpton.

So to say "And your assertion that liberals are behind this is bunk" and then provide a list of people who support your cause, of which most are liberals is actually supporting my assertion, not yours. When you say "Natives have been against this name since the very beginning" that is a half truth whereas SOME Natives are against it, but clearly not a majority or anything even close.

I also notice you did not even acknowledge the fact that multitudes of Native American HS teams use the exact word, and similar logos, yet we are to believe your assertion that ALL Natives, or even something resembling close to half are against it. Then you affirm my assertion by saying "No one listened back then, no one gave a damn." which included most Native Americans most of whom see it as an honor.

But now with the help of liberals, and the liberal media, who never waste a good crusade, it is gaining traction with a few more Native Americans, but mostly liberals looking to out a feather in their caps (No pun intended).

I am sure you and others are passionate about this issue, but you are misguided, and surely could be putting your passion to better use on more pressing matters.
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Old 06-24-2014   #278
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Look the name needs to change, I mean Washington has been a total embarrassment for the whole country. Washington is a horrible city to name your team after.
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Old 06-24-2014   #279
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by pirbroke View Post
Look the name needs to change, I mean Washington has been a total embarrassment for the whole country. Washington is a horrible city to name your team after.
Well who can argue with sound logic like that.
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Old 06-24-2014   #280
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Default Re: Should the Redskins change their name?

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Originally Posted by gwallaia View Post
Just another professional with a permanent chip on his shoulder. It is only a term of derision when used for that purpose intentionally. ANYTHING can be used in this manner and if things keep going this PC way, we'll all have to be deaf mutes to keep from accidentally hurting someones itty bitty feelings. Freedom of speech infers that someone will not like our speech or there would be no need for protection. Now it was concentrated on political speech, but that was not a qualifier.

We got way off the path when we started imposing mandates in violation of free speech. Ostracism is a social reaction to those exercising their free speech rights, but government impositions should not be permitted because that violates the equal protection clause as well as the first amendment.

But redskins was not a term of derision and this example only shows the residual racism of the first owner, not that he considered redskin a pejorative.
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