Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > Football Talk > College Football & the 2014 NFL Draft > Mock Draft Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Mock Draft Talk Mock Drafts, group Mocks and links to all the shamockery.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-18-2014   #41
beerlover
Site Contributor
 
beerlover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12,554
Rep Power: 66422 beerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
So you're saying McCarron & Mettenberger are most likely back ups. Savage is a developmental back up?


I'm not arguing, just trying to figure out what 3rd/4th round means to you.
It all depends on the system, coaching, timing of situation & supporting cast. moving forward I don't see either as athleticly gifted as direction league is headed. These are the twilight years/days of Manning & Brady, just as it was for Farve, Staubach, Bradshaw, Tarkington you name them. Now are the days of speed, athletic prowess, strong arm QB's. Flacco was just the tip of the iceberg, then was Kapernick now Russell Wilson. Next could be Bortles, Manziel or Bridgewater, after that its a complete crap shoot, which is why Texans must get the right QB with their first pick, even if they trade down. Personally its not worth risking if he is there. I don't see McCarron being much better than a Dalton or Colt McCoy. Mettenberger like Gabbert can throw the rock but poor pocket presence, gotta be able to move or create time with your feet.
__________________

2012 Draft was Mercilus
beerlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014   #42
The Pencil Neck
Hall of Fame
 
The Pencil Neck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 52
Posts: 19,121
Rep Power: 349460 The Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respectedThe Pencil Neck is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
It all depends on the system, coaching, timing of situation & supporting cast. moving forward I don't see either as athleticly gifted as direction league is headed. These are the twilight years/days of Manning & Brady, just as it was for Farve, Staubach, Bradshaw, Tarkington you name them. Now are the days of speed, athletic prowess, strong arm QB's. Flacco was just the tip of the iceberg, then was Kapernick now Russell Wilson. Next could be Bortles, Manziel or Bridgewater, after that its a complete crap shoot, which is why Texans must get the right QB with their first pick, even if they trade down. Personally its not worth risking if he is there. I don't see McCarron being much better than a Dalton or Colt McCoy. Mettenberger like Gabbert can throw the rock but poor pocket presence, gotta be able to move or create time with your feet.
But this happens every decade or so. The athletic QB is going to make the pocket passer a dinosaur. There was Tarkenton, then there was Staubach and Bradshaw, and then there was Stabler and Joe Theismann, and then there was John Elway and Randall Cunningham and Steve McNair and Steve Young and Donovan McNabb and Mike Vick and every generation, these running QBs are supposed to take over and re-write everything.

But.

Every generation there are Peyton Mannings and Tom Bradys and Dan Marinos and Kenny Andersons and so on and so forth.

Pocket passers aren't going to go out of style. A guy who can read a defense and stand in and complete passes is going to be a success and in general, they're going to be more successful than someone who's more of a runner. The runners are going to be successful when they learn how to be more of a pocket passer (like Elway, like Young, like Cunningham.)
__________________
Adoptee: #55 - Chris Myers.
The Pencil Neck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014   #43
beerlover
Site Contributor
 
beerlover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12,554
Rep Power: 66422 beerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
But this happens every decade or so. The athletic QB is going to make the pocket passer a dinosaur. There was Tarkenton, then there was Staubach and Bradshaw, and then there was Stabler and Joe Theismann, and then there was John Elway and Randall Cunningham and Steve McNair and Steve Young and Donovan McNabb and Mike Vick and every generation, these running QBs are supposed to take over and re-write everything.

But.

Every generation there are Peyton Mannings and Tom Bradys and Dan Marinos and Kenny Andersons and so on and so forth.

Pocket passers aren't going to go out of style. A guy who can read a defense and stand in and complete passes is going to be a success and in general, they're going to be more successful than someone who's more of a runner. The runners are going to be successful when they learn how to be more of a pocket passer (like Elway, like Young, like Cunningham.)
let me put it another way, the pocket passer is always evolving into a more athletic specimen because defensive players evolve, bigger, stronger, faster. Just for applicable comparison as prospects, coming into the NFL compare Tom Bradys numbers to Blake Bortles. Doesn't mean Bortles develops into Brady just saying coming into the process he is physically more athletic, bigger, stronger, faster. Both pocket passers right, yet I've seen Blake flushed out of the pocket & take off down field for premium yardage, just nobody talks about it much. Gives him an edge in adaptability department to how the game has evolved with freakishly athletically players every position.
__________________

2012 Draft was Mercilus
beerlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014   #44
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 49,300
Rep Power: 413804 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
let me put it another way, the pocket passer is always evolving into a more athletic specimen because defensive players evolve, bigger, stronger, faster. Just for applicable comparison as prospects, coming into the NFL compare Tom Bradys numbers to Blake Bortles. Doesn't mean Bortles develops into Brady just saying coming into the process he is physically more athletic, bigger, stronger, faster. Both pocket passers right, yet I've seen Blake flushed out of the pocket & take off down field for premium yardage, just nobody talks about it much. Gives him an edge in adaptability department to how the game has evolved with freakishly athletically players every position.
I can't discern any pattern at all to the names you are throwing around. Your examples almost seem random rather than proving anything. Brady fell due to looking like a banker more than a QB and Bortles does not look like a more athletic version of the Brady who has actually been successful.

These two sentences in particular make no sense to me:

Quote:
These are the twilight years/days of Manning & Brady, just as it was for Farve, Staubach, Bradshaw, Tarkington you name them. Now are the days of speed, athletic prowess, strong arm QB's. Flacco was just the tip of the iceberg, then was Kapernick now Russell Wilson.
Are you trying to throw Staubach into a group of lesser athletes than Flacco, Kaep and Wilson?

I see absolutely zero similarity between Flacco and Kaep other than they are under 30. If you are trying to say people of Manning & Brady skill are dinosaurs in the league and will be beat out by Kaeps and Wilsons well, I'd say join 50 years of people making that prediction and being proven wrong.
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-18-2014   #45
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,334
Rep Power: 326354 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
These are the twilight years/days of Manning & Brady, just as it was for Farve, Staubach, Bradshaw, Tarkington you name them. Now are the days of speed, athletic prowess, strong arm QB's. Flacco was just the tip of the iceberg, then was Kapernick now Russell Wilson.
This is why I think McCarron is so far down the list of this year's QBs. I think the league is looking towards the Kaepernick, RG3, & Wilsons as the way of the future & the media is selling it.

But I don't think Flacco is athletic at all, I think he, Matt Ryan, Bradford, & Stafford are the more traditional drop back passers, like your Bradys & Peytons.... just not as good.

I think there will always be a place for the traditional drop back passer, as long as you have OCs who strategize & plan offensive attacks. It's hard to draw up the protection for the three step, break right, spin 270 degress, then 5 steps to the left pass. & it's hard to develop the OL & skill positions for that guy.

I'd also like to see Kaepernick do what he does today five years from now. McNabb had to get much better from the pocket (& he did) to be able to play for as long as he did.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014   #46
beerlover
Site Contributor
 
beerlover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12,554
Rep Power: 66422 beerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I can't discern any pattern at all to the names you are throwing around. Your examples almost seem random rather than proving anything. Brady fell due to looking like a banker more than a QB and Bortles does not look like a more athletic version of the Brady who has actually been successful.

These two sentences in particular make no sense to me:



Are you trying to throw Staubach into a group of lesser athletes than Flacco, Kaep and Wilson?

I see absolutely zero similarity between Flacco and Kaep other than they are under 30. If you are trying to say people of Manning & Brady skill are dinosaurs in the league and will be beat out by Kaeps and Wilsons well, I'd say join 50 years of people making that prediction and being proven wrong.
bigger faster stronger, its not rocket science. I do not mean to defer player from yesteryear to today's player only in the sense QB position is constantly evolving just like other positions in the NFL. emphasis on a QB skill set must include better athletic ability or dude must have a howitzer for an arm & mind of Einstein reading defenses to compensate for any athletic deficiency. Chip Kelly likes to put it this way, I'm paraphrasing, a bigger stronger faster guy beats up a smaller, weaker slower guy every day in the NFL.
__________________

2012 Draft was Mercilus
beerlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014   #47
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 49,300
Rep Power: 413804 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
bigger faster stronger, its not rocket science. I do not mean to defer player from yesteryear to today's player only in the sense QB position is constantly evolving just like other positions in the NFL. emphasis on a QB skill set must include better athletic ability or dude must have a howitzer for an arm & mind of Einstein reading defenses to compensate for any athletic deficiency. Chip Kelly likes to put it this way, I'm paraphrasing, a bigger stronger faster guy beats up a smaller, weaker slower guy every day in the NFL.
All other things being equal kind of statements are just cheap ways of getting around the fact that all other things are not equal.

QB has always been and will always be dominated by cerebral talent over athletic talent in the NFL.
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2014   #48
beerlover
Site Contributor
 
beerlover's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12,554
Rep Power: 66422 beerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respectedbeerlover is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
All other things being equal kind of statements are just cheap ways of getting around the fact that all other things are not equal.

QB has always been and will always be dominated by cerebral talent over athletic talent in the NFL.
I prefer to think of it as an escalation of both going hand in hand. Brains over brawn doesn't work as well as you obviously, stubbornly cling to. You need both
__________________

2012 Draft was Mercilus
beerlover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2014   #49
leebigeztx
Hall of Fame
 
leebigeztx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: League City formerly of LaMarque
Age: 43
Posts: 1,629
Rep Power: 30026 leebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respectedleebigeztx is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via MSN to leebigeztx
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

I think people are confusing mobility with athletic talent. Romo,Ben,Luck,and Rodgers are mobile. Favre and Elway were mobile guys too. Peyton,Brady,Schaub are not mobile guys. RG3,CK,Cam,and Wilson are guys who will run more than the mobile guys. With time as the game slows down,you hope those guys become more like mcnabb and win the games from the pocket,but still use their legs to escape when needed.
__________________
Be a student of the game, not a fan.
leebigeztx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014   #50
DocBar
Hall of Fame
 
DocBar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: I'm international
Section: Channel 700-ish on NFL Sunday Ticket
Age: 45
Posts: 9,740
Rep Power: 107641 DocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
I think people are confusing mobility with athletic talent. Romo,Ben,Luck,and Rodgers are mobile. Favre and Elway were mobile guys too. Peyton,Brady,Schaub are not mobile guys. RG3,CK,Cam,and Wilson are guys who will run more than the mobile guys. With time as the game slows down,you hope those guys become more like mcnabb and win the games from the pocket,but still use their legs to escape when needed.
Mobile can mean a lot of things. Romo, Ben, Rodgers and Luck scramble to extend plays. but Manning, Brady, Marino, etc. are very mobile in the pocket but don't do a lot of scrambling. Vick, Kap, and Cam are not going to scramble to extend the play, they arer going to tuck the ball and run.

I'm not 100% sure where I put RGIII or Wilson just yet. Probably more as scrambling QB's than running QB's. right now. I think RGIII's days as a running QB are numbered. If they aren't then his carrer likely is. He has the talent to be a great scrambling QB

That's why I categorize them as:
Mobile QB- pocket passers that can elude the rush by stepping up in the pocket or moving around in it.

Scrambling QB: passers that will scramble to extend the play, keeping their eyes downfield to make a play and only tuck it and run as a last resort.

Running QB-Plays in the Read-Option, has a wide variety of plays designed for QB runs, when a play breaks down, automatically tucks the ball and starts acting O.J Simpson in an airport.

__________________
“Of course, if one ignores contradictory observations, one can claim to have an ‘elegant’ or ‘robust’ theory. But it isn’t science.”
— Halton Arp
DocBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2014   #51
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,334
Rep Power: 326354 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBar View Post
Mobile QB- pocket passers that can elude the rush by stepping up in the pocket or moving around in it.

Well I agree with you on one thing.



You'll never hear anyone describe Brady, Peyton, or Schaub as mobile. Schaub is a statue. The other two, have great pocket presence.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014   #52
DocBar
Hall of Fame
 
DocBar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: I'm international
Section: Channel 700-ish on NFL Sunday Ticket
Age: 45
Posts: 9,740
Rep Power: 107641 DocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respectedDocBar is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
Well I agree with you on one thing.



You'll never hear anyone describe Brady, Peyton, or Schaub as mobile. Schaub is a statue. The other two, have great pocket presence.
I didn't list Schaub in my post....maybe I'm not interpreting your post correctly? Brady and Manning are prototypical pocket passers.
__________________
“Of course, if one ignores contradictory observations, one can claim to have an ‘elegant’ or ‘robust’ theory. But it isn’t science.”
— Halton Arp
DocBar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2014   #53
Lucky
Moderator
 
Lucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 13,434
Rep Power: 212249 Lucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respectedLucky is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Steel B's Mock 2.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
QB has always been and will always be dominated by cerebral talent over athletic talent in the NFL.
And that's the most difficult talent to scout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerlover View Post
Brains over brawn doesn't work as well as you obviously, stubbornly cling to. You need both
I didn't see where he suggested that a QB didn't need talent.

Tom Brady should be banned from any QB prospect comparison. He's an anomaly. His college coach kept trying to replace him, but couldn't. His desire and competitiveness were too strong. When some scout develops a tool to measure those, then we can make a comparison to Brady. He had the body of an UDFA when he entered the NFL. That was good enough for college. He worked himself into an average athlete with an adequate arm durung his 1st couple of years in the league. The Tom Brady at the 2000 combine was not the Tom Brady of Super Bowl XXXVI. A transformation like that is impossible to project.
__________________
“We’re looking for a coach that...works with great energy and enthusiasm and very positive in his approach.” - Bob McNair
Lucky is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > Football Talk > College Football & the 2014 NFL Draft > Mock Draft Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger