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Old 03-27-2014   #2921
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
With the armpit vs pristine comment, do you think your teacher was referring to the petrochemical complexes on the Houston SC vs the absence of same in Arlington ? Or was intended in a more general sense, whatever that might be ?
Definitely a general sense. and my friends up there were always like "why do you like Houston, its so dirty and weird". It's funny tho. now that we are older and they visit, Houston is the **** compared to the pristine plannedness of DFW. Btw, those petrochemical plants, largest complex in the nation, is the heart of this states economy.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2922
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Stemp View Post
Matt just needs to look in the mirror to see what a 6th rounder looks like.


I'm just sayin...
I think its very sloppy to only show negative plays like he did when making that comment. There are tons of positive plays with Manziel playing within the pocket. He has a point on things he needs to clean up, but every QB entering the draft has things they need to get better at.

Jaws honestly has been the most subjective throughout the process. Johnny has to improve his mechanics at the next level.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2923
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
I had been on the fence prior to today. That's changed now - I'd prefer Manziel over either of the other two , as he has a better arm than either and he just makes plays.

What sealed the deal for me wasn't what he did on the field , but what he said off it , about being a professional , being the best he can be and being 100% dedicated in that endeavor.

I've got them like this -

Manziel
Bortles
Bridgewater

I would have no problem with taking Manziel #1 overall .... Sure there is bust potential , but the reward far outweighs the risk. You don't often find playmakers like Manziel at the QB position.

It wasn't so much what he did on the field that
You can't be serious. That was your hangup? He didn't say he was gonna be a good boy and dedicate himself to the NFL before today?
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Old 03-27-2014   #2924
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Corrosion View Post
I had been on the fence prior to today. That's changed now - I'd prefer Manziel over either of the other two , as he has a better arm than either and he just makes plays.

What sealed the deal for me wasn't what he did on the field , but what he said off it , about being a professional , being the best he can be and being 100% dedicated in that endeavor.

I've got them like this -

Manziel
Bortles
Bridgewater

I would have no problem with taking Manziel #1 overall .... Sure there is bust potential , but the reward far outweighs the risk. You don't often find playmakers like Manziel at the QB position.

It wasn't so much what he did on the field that
Good post. Just finished listening to what he had to say to the NFL Network crew as well as ESPN. Definitely agree with you. Main thing that I liked seeing with him out on the field though was his footwork and arm strength. Those were two big question marks with him, and he definitely showed plenty of arm and some significant improvement in his footwork. Combine all that with his leadership abilities and his competitive nature, and this is a guy with All-Pro potential.

Every NFL player is a gamble. I forget who said it this morning on ESPN but if you are waiting for the next Peyton Manning, you are going to be waiting a LONG time. Those guys only come along once every 15 or so years and to our frustration, the Colts got that guy not once but twice. In this league, you have to take some risks, and Manziel has done everything he possibly can to prove he is worth the risk.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2925
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Default Re: Manziel

Manziel can handle the cameras. That's a big thing. Y'all are going to point out the Manning Academy incident, but look since then - nothing. Not a peep. The thing that convinced me that Manziel can handle the spotlight is when after the Duke game, during the elation of winning, when he was asked whether or not he was going to leave for the NFL, he answered: "I can't even think about that right now, I'm just so happy to win for me and my teammates" or something to that effect. Dude is diplomatic 24/7. He knows the right thing to say and when to say it. And yeah, there'll be a circus following him wherever he goes.

But notice how he handles the circus. He doesn't lose his cool in public. No "Kanye attack the paparazzi" moments. No imbecilic comments. Manziel has, I think, learned from the Heisman offseason. He knows he's under scrutiny and after Autograph-gate he's been careful to not land himself in hot water. I think he's learned from that experience. The most compelling proof of that is the silence from the end of the Rice game to today.

I'm not saying Manziel is a saint. For all I know he could be a raging douche. The point is, however, he has learned to present a better face of him to the public. He tries to characterize himself as a person of intensity, competitiveness, aggressiveness, etc. If he can handle the circus as he has since the beginning of the college football season, I think his chances of being successful increase quite a bit.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2926
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Manziel can handle the cameras. That's a big thing. Y'all are going to point out the Manning Academy incident, but look since then - nothing. Not a peep. The thing that convinced me that Manziel can handle the spotlight is when after the Duke game, during the elation of winning, when he was asked whether or not he was going to leave for the NFL, he answered: "I can't even think about that right now, I'm just so happy to win for me and my teammates" or something to that effect. Dude is diplomatic 24/7. He knows the right thing to say and when to say it. And yeah, there'll be a circus following him wherever he goes.



But notice how he handles the circus. He doesn't lose his cool in public. No "Kanye attack the paparazzi" moments. No imbecilic comments. Manziel has, I think, learned from the Heisman offseason. He knows he's under scrutiny and after Autograph-gate he's been careful to not land himself in hot water. I think he's learned from that experience. The most compelling proof of that is the silence from the end of the Rice game to today.



I'm not saying Manziel is a saint. For all I know he could be a raging douche. The point is, however, he has learned to present a better face of him to the public. He tries to characterize himself as a person of intensity, competitiveness, aggressiveness, etc. If he can handle the circus as he has since the beginning of the college football season, I think his chances of being successful increase quite a bit.

Man, this is a really good point.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2927
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
And what about his workout today should change your opinion of the LSU and Missouri games? I didn't see a real pass rush out there forcing him to make quicker reads. I didn't see press coverage on his WR's forcing him to make adjustments. I saw a scripted workout. He looked good, but it was a workout. Don't let a two-hour workout change an opinion you developed over watching 2 years of game tape.
And what about those two games should change your opinion of two years worth of other games? Don't let a two bad games change an opinion you developed over watching 2 years of game tape.

And don't give me that crap about taking the run away from him makes him worthless. Like thats all he can do. When threw from the pocket, he completed 73.6% of his passes for 3,429 yards and 27 TD's. That's as a red shirt sophomore playing in the SEC. Not to mention he had ZERO help on the other side of the ball.

All in all for his career he put up outstanding numbers under those conditions. 20 and 6 W-L, 7820 pass yds, 63 - 22 TD-INT, 2169 yds rushing with 30 rushing TD's.

Let's not pretend these workouts are meaningless. They are to validate the film. To show that they can make all the throws. Obviously Game tape is more important but good QB's very rarely if ever do bad in them. He did really well and even went out of his way to make it harder on himself. Give him some credit for that.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2928
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Default Re: Manziel

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Well my mind is made up now! We need to draft Johnny Bortleswater. Perfect QB.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2929
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Old 03-27-2014   #2930
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Default Re: Manziel

I've not been JM's biggest fan - in terms of the Texans drafting him. GREAT college QB, but the dumpster at the back of the NFL's hotel is littered with the remains of great college QB's that did squat in the NFL. Vince Young to Ryan Leaf and a million in between.

He is still in my mind a definite high risk/high reward guy, but today went a long way for me in answering at least some of the questions I had. Better arm strength then I imagined and liked his deep accuracy. Heard good things about footwork and his overall demeanor was good. Think it was a fantastic move on his part to go with helmet/pads, shows he is up for a challenge.

All these guys are a gamble, but Bridgewater in my mind is the safest but the lowest ceiling, Bortles has all the things you look for physically, but he hasn't proven anything against top competition and his accuracy is in question, and then you have Manziel.

He's a wildcard in my mind. He could be out of the NFL in 3 years, or he could completely revolutionize the game and be the toast of the town.

My big concerns continue to be:

Durability/injury concerns if he tries to play like he did in college and if he tries to become more pocket oriented, is the magic gone and he becomes an smallish short guy that has trouble with batted passes and vision? He isn't going to get any taller.

That is my biggest concern.

Secondarily, he talked a good game today, but once he gets paid his millions will he remain dedicated to being the best, watching film and basically being Payton Manning or will he blow it ala VY? There are going to be a TON of "hanger's on'ers" around this guy and he needs to have someone with him that keeps him grounded. He's got a reputation, and he needs to change it.

Will his ego become a problem? Is it already a problem? Is he going to blend with the rest of the team like OB wants, or will he be a prima donna and create tension/drama and/or distraction/division in the locker room.

He's got the most upside of anyone in this draft class. He also has the greatest downside imo (ie greatest risk).

It's a real gamble, but if nothing else, he would add a ton of interest and excitement to a team that was led by the 7 dwarfs last year with Schaub being somewhere between Grumpy and Dopey. I'm with them either way as I am really torn but what the hell - YOLO.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2931
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Default Re: Manziel

Pass on Manziel. He still "heaved" balls up that will either get picked off or get his receivers killed in the NFL.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2932
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
And what about those two games should change your opinion of two years worth of other games? Don't let a two bad games change an opinion you developed over watching 2 years of game tape.

And don't give me that crap about taking the run away from him makes him worthless. Like thats all he can do. When threw from the pocket, he completed 73.6% of his passes for 3,429 yards and 27 TD's. That's as a red shirt sophomore playing in the SEC. Not to mention he had ZERO help on the other side of the ball.

All in all for his career he put up outstanding numbers under those conditions. 20 and 6 W-L, 7820 pass yds, 63 - 22 TD-INT, 2169 yds rushing with 30 rushing TD's.

Let's not pretend these workouts are meaningless. They are to validate the film. To show that they can make all the throws. Obviously Game tape is more important but good QB's very rarely if ever do bad in them. He did really well and even went out of his way to make it harder on himself. Give him some credit for that.
They are meaningless and prove 0 in terms of football. Anyone can't throw outs vs air or post routes vs air,but can you anticipate the coverage vs the window and throw the ball? I'm sure case keenum and matt schaub can throw a 15 yd out to any wr vs air, but can you throw it on time,from the pocket to the proper shoulder? Post routes are the easiest routes to throw. The problem occurs when the post route is thrown late. I don't think a person on this board will question a post,fly,slant or even in cut with clean lanes and pockets,the question is,can you throw those inside the chaos of the pocket on time?

As stated before, pro days,from talking to phil savage and pat kirwan at the senior bowl mean 0 really. This is not me the armchair gm speaking,this is from guys who used to do it for a living. This pro day or any other pro day doesn't change the process of what obrie and smith see on tape. As stated before,the most important thing,90% of it is game tape and personal interview/workout. The ability to understand route concepts and engulf information and execute it. That's what will or will not get manziel,TB,Bortles,Carr,or whomever the texans decide to draft.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2933
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I would like to see Manziel go to Cleveland and try to revitalize that franchise.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2934
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by djohn2oo8 View Post
Pass on Manziel. He still "heaved" balls up that will either get picked off or get his receivers killed in the NFL.
I don't want the Texans to draft JF because I don't like his height, but to say he heaved the balls up sounds like you didn't watch his pro day. All of his passes look like they were on a rope and the velocity was great.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2935
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Default Re: Manziel

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If there's a reach here, then it's in the spin job you're attempting. Dude asked for my opinion on why I see similarities between him in 2014 and VY in 2006 and I gave it.

Funny how I don't remember anyone that's arguing this point even being in the forum back then.
You were asked for your opinion because it's known you would fart out some asinine "opinions" in a heartbeat about anything Manziel. You're seriously clutching at straws to try to prove some point about his work eric when he pretty effectively proved to not be a distraction this past season.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2936
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Default Re: Manziel

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Pass on Manziel. He still "heaved" balls up that will either get picked off or get his receivers killed in the NFL.
Come on now, really?
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Old 03-27-2014   #2937
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Default Re: Manziel

a "heave" :



I know this really doesn't pertain to Manziel but Mike Evans looked like the real freakin deal too.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2938
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
And what about those two games should change your opinion of two years worth of other games? Don't let a two bad games change an opinion you developed over watching 2 years of game tape.

You are really reaching for straws here. Those 2 games were a part of the two year evaluation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mussop View Post
And don't give me that crap about taking the run away from him makes him worthless. Like thats all he can do. When threw from the pocket, he completed 73.6% of his passes for 3,429 yards and 27 TD's. That's as a red shirt sophomore playing in the SEC. Not to mention he had ZERO help on the other side of the ball.

All in all for his career he put up outstanding numbers under those conditions. 20 and 6 W-L, 7820 pass yds, 63 - 22 TD-INT, 2169 yds rushing with 30 rushing TD's.

His 20-6 record is impressive, however let's look at it more closely...

Record against top 25 teams = 4-6
Against the rest = 16-0


His stats were impressive as well, however let's look at it more closely...

TD:INT against top 25 defenses (7 games) = 17 TD's / 11 INT's
Against the rest (19 games) = 46 TD's / 11 INT's

Rushing against top 25 defenses (7 games) = 389 yards & 1 TD
Against the rest (19 games) = 1780 yards & 29 TD's


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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Let's not pretend these workouts are meaningless. They are to validate the film. To show that they can make all the throws. Obviously Game tape is more important but good QB's very rarely if ever do bad in them. He did really well and even went out of his way to make it harder on himself. Give him some credit for that.

I never said that workouts were meaningless. I said that if you already had a 2-year evaluation on a guy then don't change it because of a 2-hour workout. I also gave him credit for the workout while still acknowledging that it was just a workout.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2939
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by BigBull View Post
I don't want the Texans to draft JF because I don't like his height, but to say he heaved the balls up sounds like you didn't watch his pro day. All of his passes look like they were on a rope and the velocity was great.
I watched it all. Some were lacking velocity, the throws over the middle basically. His arm dipped on some as well.
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Old 03-27-2014   #2940
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Default Re: Manziel

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0ng View Post
a "heave" :



I know this really doesn't pertain to Manziel but Mike Evans looked like the real freakin deal too.
For the haters, any pass 30+ yard downfield, even when he hits the receiver in stride is a "heave"
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