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Old 03-22-2014   #21
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
I won't argue your point about QB...Mack has a lot of impact skills. He's widely regarded as one of the elite talents in this draft. You can knock him for his level of competition but there was no drop off in his level of play against the good teams that he played...Take the player that will add the biggest positive impact to your team, regardless of what position he plays.
Excellent points. You make my argument for me - and much better.
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Old 03-22-2014   #22
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Mack could be everything these internet scouts say he is. But, he won't make as big an impact as a QB, a true pass rusher like Clowney, or even a franchise LT. Really good LBs without a true impact skill are not selected #1 overall. To me, it's silly to suggest taking a guy like Mack at 1-1. And that's not even taking into consideration his level of competition.

Had the Texans decided to work a deal with New England for Mallett, trading out of 1-1 would have made a lot of sense. At the 5th, 6th, or 7th spot, Mack may have made a lot of sense. But, the Texans still need a QB. And to pass over a QB for a LB, even a very good LB, doesn't add up.
Don't get me wrong here, I'm still full bore for Clowney as our first round pick if we keep the 1.1, especially since there's probably no real daylight between the top half dozen or so QBs in this Draft and we already have our "franchise LT". I'm just trying to anticipate the possibility of a trade, unlikely as it may be, looking at prospects when and if we've got to choose after the best of the best are off of the Board.
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Old 03-22-2014   #23
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
Many don't believe that Clowney is a great fit for Crennel's style of defense
Do you mean to suggest that in this very, very talented Draft, some would say the singular best Draft in decades, that the Texans with the top overall pick should remove from their Board the most talented player in the entire Draft because he's not compatible with their defense ? Are you freaking serious ?
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Old 03-23-2014   #24
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
Take the player that will add the biggest positive impact to your team, regardless of what position he plays.
That's my point. Mack wouldn't make the biggest impact. Let's look at facts. He's from a small conference where played very well, but I wouldn't say dominated. Mack had 28.5 sacks in 4 years, versus Clowney's 24 sacks in 3 years. Mack had a huge game against Ohio State, no question. But against Baylor and in the bowl game with San Diego State, he was a non-factor. Now if Baylor and San Diego State can scheme to where Mack can't make an impact, how difficult will it be for an NFL team?

Mack's a bigger projection than Clowney* or any of the top QBs. That doesn't mean he can't become a very good player. But does he come into this draft with the rating or production of the last LB taken high (Von Miller #2)? No. Mack is not that kind of prospect. If the Texans trade down and pickup additional picks, you can make a case that Mack + say a RT taken with a high 2nd is worth more than Clowney. But, there's no way that can be said straight up. From the article from SBNation linked above:

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It comes down to a choice between a guy who will probably start right away and be productive and guy with a mountain of unrealized potential. At his best, Mack may make a Pro Bowl or two, but will likely never be an All-Pro guy or contend for Defensive Player of the Year during his career or a guy who has the potential to be in the conversation for DPOY every year of his career after he has fully developed in the NFL (like Jadeveon Clowney). I understand the impulse to go with the safe pick in Mack, but for me, no matter who I pick No. 1 overall, I want him to be a guy with a high ceiling who help can turn around my franchise, because there is usually a good reason why we are picking that high in the first place.


At the end of the day, somebody is going to be very happy with Mack, and he is likely to have a very productive career no matter where he goes. I just don't see him having the kind of ceiling that you will have with a guy like Clowney.
And this is from an internet scout that dismisses Mack's level of comeptition off of one game (Ohio State) and disregards the others where Mack was made a non-factor. Which seems silly to me. I think it's fair to project Mack as a top 10 pick based upon his production at his level and his measurables. But it's a projection. Because he hasn't produced at the level of a Clowney, or a Manziel, or a Bridgewater, or even a Bortles. There's no way you take Mack straight up over those guys.

* Note: I completely reject the notion that Clowney couldn't play in Crennel's defense. The defense he learned under Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick. The defense that starred Lawrence Taylor (the player Clowney has been compared to the most). Ridiculous.
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Old 03-23-2014   #25
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Do you mean to suggest that in this very, very talented Draft, some would say the singular best Draft in decades, that the Texans with the top overall pick should remove from their Board the most talented player in the entire Draft because he's not compatible with their defense ? Are you freaking serious ?
There are two schools of thought among successful coaching staffs.

1. Take the best player and change your system however you have to so that he fits it

2. Stick to your system and take the best player that fits it, even if that means passing on "more talented players" (Seattle just won a Super Bowl doing this)

If Crennel believes #1 then we take Clowney and move to a hybrid defense where he mostly has his hand in the dirt.

If Crennel believes #2 then Clowney is not the #1 player on their board.

The absolute biggest mistake you can make in the draft is taking guys who don't fit your system and trying to fit them in. Just because he is an amazing talent as a 43 DE does not mean he is the same amazing talent as a 34 OLB.
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Old 03-23-2014   #26
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
That's my point. Mack wouldn't make the biggest impact. Let's look at facts. He's from a small conference where played very well, but I wouldn't say dominated. Mack had 28.5 sacks in 4 years, versus Clowney's 24 sacks in 3 years. Mack had a huge game against Ohio State, no question. But against Baylor and in the bowl game with San Diego State, he was a non-factor. Now if Baylor and San Diego State can scheme to where Mack can't make an impact, how difficult will it be for an NFL team?
Mack had more responsibilities in his defense and wasn't strictly a pass rusher like Clowney was so of course Clowney had more sacks. That's not a fair comparison. That's like talking down a SS because his SLB had more tackles than him.

He was schemed against because he was the only player on his entire defense that was capable of making a play.

Clowney was schemed against pretty successfully in his final season. Difference is that South Carolina has studs all over their defense to pick up the slack. I notice that you omitted mentioning Clowney's lack of production in his final season when he was schemed against and his impact was limited. What's the difference between the two in that regard?

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Mack's a bigger projection than Clowney* or any of the top QBs. That doesn't mean he can't become a very good player. But does he come into this draft with the rating or production of the last LB taken high (Von Miller #2)? No. Mack is not that kind of prospect. If the Texans trade down and pickup additional picks, you can make a case that Mack + say a RT taken with a high 2nd is worth more than Clowney. But, there's no way that can be said straight up....
Mack may be a bigger projection in that he played a lower level of competition. But Clowney is a bigger projection in that he has far less experience doing some of the things that he would be required to do in Crennel's defense.

And the QBs are all much larger projections than either of these guys. They always are. It's the hardest position to project to the NFL level.

Clowney as a 43 DE is worth more than Mack is as a 43 SLB. That's true. But we don't run that system. I project Mack as a better fit for Crennel's defense, thus I see him as more valuable for that system. If we are planning on altering the system to make Clowney a better fit then I would reevaluate that opinion, but I can only go on what defenses Crennel has traditionally run.

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And this is from an internet scout that dismisses Mack's level of comeptition off of one game (Ohio State) and disregards the others where Mack was made a non-factor. Which seems silly to me. I think it's fair to project Mack as a top 10 pick based upon his production at his level and his measurables. But it's a projection. Because he hasn't produced at the level of a Clowney, or a Manziel, or a Bridgewater, or even a Bortles. There's no way you take Mack straight up over those guys.
It's not all about college production. The NFL isn't college football. Production is only one variable of the projection to the next level. Tim Tebow was incredibly productive at the highest level of college football. Based on your argument, it would seem that you rated Tebow as a better prospect than even Clowney.

Quote:
* Note: I completely reject the notion that Clowney couldn't play in Crennel's defense. The defense he learned under Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick. The defense that starred Lawrence Taylor (the player Clowney has been compared to the most). Ridiculous.
If that's your stance then I understand where you're coming from. To understand where I'm coming from you would have to understand that I don't listen to who other people compare these guys to. I do my own research and watch all these guys with my own eyes. I spend an immense amount of time doing this because it is my hobby. Everything that I say is my own opinion and not based on anything that has been written or said by anyone else. Now, maybe my system is flawed because I don't have access to the same tools that these other guys do but I find that I am right more often than not. Perhaps this could be one of those times that I am wrong. I would certainly prefer to be wrong if we end up drafting Clowney.

I also never make the assertion that Clowney couldn't play in Crennel's defense, only that he is not a great fit for it and thus it does not maximize his talents.
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Old 03-23-2014   #27
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
There are two schools of thought among successful coaching staffs.

1. Take the best player and change your system however you have to so that he fits it

2. Stick to your system and take the best player that fits it, even if that means passing on "more talented players" (Seattle just won a Super Bowl doing this)

If Crennel believes #1 then we take Clowney and move to a hybrid defense where he mostly has his hand in the dirt.

If Crennel believes #2 then Clowney is not the #1 player on their board.

The absolute biggest mistake you can make in the draft is taking guys who don't fit your system and trying to fit them in. Just because he is an amazing talent as a 43 DE does not mean he is the same amazing talent as a 34 OLB.
Or perhaps there's a third option which is to hire Wade Phillips or a DC like him with his flexibility and adaptability to make the defense fit the personnel, that is all kinds of personnel as Wade has proved over the years where for example one defense for one team played with a sub-300 lb NT while another defense with another team featured a 350 lb plus NT. I'm fearful because I'm pretty sure O'Brien didn't hire a DC who espoused the #3 school of thought.
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Old 03-23-2014   #28
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Or perhaps there's a third option which is to hire Wade Phillips or a DC like him with his flexibility and adaptability to make the defense fit the personnel, that is all kinds of personnel as Wade has proved over the years where for example one defense for one team played with a sub-300 lb NT while another defense with another team featured a 350 lb plus NT. I'm fearful because I'm pretty sure O'Brien didn't hire a DC who espoused the #3 school of thought.
Thats different than his #1... How? It's what he was saying. Fit scheme to personnel.
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Old 03-23-2014   #29
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
I do my own research and watch all these guys with my own eyes. I spend an immense amount of time doing this because it is my hobby. Everything that I say is my own opinion and not based on anything that has been written or said by anyone else.
Well, what did you think about how Mack played against Baylor? I didn't see a lot of double teaming Mack. He just didn't seem to make a lot of plays. Granted, his team was completely over-matched. But was there anything in this game that jumped out and said "1st pick in the draft!"? I'm not saying the guy sucks and shouldn't be a 1st round pick. Just that there's nothing there to suggest Mack will make the type of impact a team is looking for in the 1st pick of the draft. Mack has as many or more questions to be answered as Clowney, Bridgewater, or Manziel without the potential upside they bring.
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Old 03-23-2014   #30
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
Many don't believe that Clowney is a great fit for Crennel's style of defense, and most agree that Mack is.
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* Note: I completely reject the notion that Clowney couldn't play in Crennel's defense. The defense he learned under Bill Parcells and Bill Belichick. The defense that starred Lawrence Taylor (the player Clowney has been compared to the most). Ridiculous.
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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
If that's your stance then I understand where you're coming from. To understand where I'm coming from you would have to understand that I don't listen to who other people compare these guys to. I do my own research and watch all these guys with my own eyes. I spend an immense amount of time doing this because it is my hobby. Everything that I say is my own opinion and not based on anything that has been written or said by anyone else.
I'm trying to understand why it's OK for you to suggest that "many don't believe" Clowney is a good fit for the Texans, and "most agree" that Mack is. But when I say Clowney has been compared the most to LT, I'm just parroting my entire opinion on what others have said? Why is that?
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Old 03-23-2014   #31
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by NCTexan View Post
Thats different than his #1... How? It's what he was saying. Fit scheme to personnel.
Show me a DC who ran a 3-4 who had a 290-305 pound NT with one team and a 340-350 pounder with another team ? In other words I think Phillips is one of a kind and if he's a #1 he's the only one in the NFL.
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Old 03-23-2014   #32
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post

The absolute biggest mistake you can make in the draft is taking guys who don't fit your system and trying to fit them in. Just because he is an amazing talent as a 43 DE does not mean he is the same amazing talent as a 34 OLB.
See Jason Babin
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Old 03-24-2014   #33
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by IDEXAN View Post
Or perhaps there's a third option which is to hire Wade Phillips or a DC like him with his flexibility and adaptability to make the defense fit the personnel, that is all kinds of personnel as Wade has proved over the years where for example one defense for one team played with a sub-300 lb NT while another defense with another team featured a 350 lb plus NT. I'm fearful because I'm pretty sure O'Brien didn't hire a DC who espoused the #3 school of thought.
This is exactly what I described in #1, altering your scheme to fit your personnel.
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Old 03-24-2014   #34
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
I'm trying to understand why it's OK for you to suggest that "many don't believe" Clowney is a good fit for the Texans, and "most agree" that Mack is. But when I say Clowney has been compared the most to LT, I'm just parroting my entire opinion on what others have said? Why is that?
I never accused you of parroting your entire opinion on what others have said. You seem to be very defensive in this discussion and I'm not sure why. It's not like I called you out or anything. We just disagree on how a prospect fits into Crennel's traditional defensive style.

You bring up a fair point. I personally don't take much stock in what others have to say about these prospects, but that doesn't mean that others don't as well. You seemed to when you brought up the LT comparisons. So I responded by letting you know that many people believe that Mack is a better fit for Crennel's defense.

If it clears things up, I also believe that. But not because other people said it. I believe it based on what I have seen from both players with my own eyes.
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Old 03-24-2014   #35
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Well, what did you think about how Mack played against Baylor? I didn't see a lot of double teaming Mack. He just didn't seem to make a lot of plays. Granted, his team was completely over-matched. But was there anything in this game that jumped out and said "1st pick in the draft!"? I'm not saying the guy sucks and shouldn't be a 1st round pick. Just that there's nothing there to suggest Mack will make the type of impact a team is looking for in the 1st pick of the draft. Mack has as many or more questions to be answered as Clowney, Bridgewater, or Manziel without the potential upside they bring.
Mack did not do a great job rushing the passer in that game. This is his worst game on tape.

Baylor did a great job of limiting Mack's impact through great coaching. There was an immense talent gap between these two teams. Baylor knew that Mack is the only difference maker that Buffalo had. They did two things very well to limit his impact. They ran the ball away from him consistently, keeping him away from the ball carrier. He did not do a great job moving through traffic and finding the ball. Baylor also utilized their short passing and screen game to get the ball out before he could get to the QB. A lot of teams tried this. Baylor did it best, and it clearly worked. He was a non-factor.

Then again, every player has at least one bad game on tape. It doesn't seem fair to hold this one game against Mack like he is the only one that ever had a bad day, but ignore Clowney's performances against North Carolina and UCF. The difference being that when Mack has a bad day his team gets rolled. When Clowney has a bad day he has a bunch of studs around him to pick up the slack. And Manziel has more bad tape out there than both of these guys combined.

To be clear, I don't think that you hate Mack as a prospect. It just seems that you are holding him to a different standard.

I also don't agree that Mack has limited upside. I think having better players surrounding him will increase his ability to make an impact because he won't be schemed against to the level that he was in college. I think that holds true for Clowney as well. Despite being surrounded by superior talent, he was still the most schemed against defender on his team. And if we were running a system in which Clowney would have his hand in the dirt I would be thrilled to put him across from the most schemed against defensive player in the NFL. But based on Crennel's history, that is not the system we will be running.
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Old 03-25-2014   #36
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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See Jason Babin
Comparing J. Clowney to J. Babin is like comparing a Maserati to a Model-T Ford. Clowney is all over Ytube dunking basketballs and anchoring his H.S. sprint relay team in the state championship meet, the guy is a world-class athlete.
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Old 03-25-2014   #37
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Comparing J. Clowney to J. Babin is like comparing a Maserati to a Model-T Ford. Clowney is all over Ytube dunking basketballs and anchoring his H.S. sprint relay team in the state championship meet, the guy is a world-class athlete.
He wasn't comparing Babin to Clowney. He was using Babin as an example of a college player who had outstanding production as a DE; but failed to have the same impact when moved to a different position with different responsibilities.
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Old 03-25-2014   #38
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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He wasn't comparing Babin to Clowney. He was using Babin as an example of a college player who had outstanding production as a DE; but failed to have the same impact when moved to a different position with different responsibilities.
Understand that, but I think a players ability to play multiple positions, especially when one is played from a 3-point stance and the other is not and requires more lateral movement and other varied physical maneuvers, is more a function of basic athleticism than anything else.
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Old 05-06-2014   #39
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

Lance Zierlein was at NFL Films and participated in their Mock Draft...

Khalil Mack went to the Texans #1 overall.
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Old 05-06-2014   #40
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Default Re: Khalil Mack, OLB/DE, Buffalo

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Lance Zierlein was at NFL Films and participated in their Mock Draft...

Khalil Mack went to the Texans #1 overall.
Pinch me. I think I'm dreaming. Best choice in my H'st of JMHO, of course.
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