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Old 03-10-2014   #201
Troy Chapman
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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There you go, I stand corrected. So if you're correct, Schaub's 2014 dead money would be $3.5 million and his 2015 dead money would be $7 million? Correct?
That's the way I interpret the June 1 designation. Along with carrying his full cap hit until June 1. If Schaub is released (which may not happen now) I'm in favor of taking on all $10.5 million of dead money now in 2014 and move on.
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Old 03-10-2014   #202
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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How did we lose $4M by cutting Schaub when you already figured the money in?

I understand adding another head to the count, but you said cutting Schaub was already factored into the money. You're also cheating me on moving $7.5M to 2015, not 50% or $5M. So that's the original $12M you quoted after cutting Schaub plus $2.5M you cheated me & we have $14.5M

We're still going to have depth issues, I'm not denying that. I wish we could spend $5M on every player we add like Indy can... but I agree we don't have the cap space to do that. We'll just have to find a way to get a lot out of cheap contracts the way they've done the past two years.

But we keep OD, we Keep Manning, we've got Brian Cushing coming back & we didn't have to cut Jjo..... so I'm still fielding a competent team with eight 1st & 2nd round picks & high dollar FAs.

We sign our first round pick for about $5M cap hit (your number) & the other 6 for about $3M, total of $8M leaving us $6M.

I don't expect us to be very active in FA.

But we can still & should cut Brice McCain & Derek Newton for another $2M. We can cut OD, we can get Andre, Jjo, Foster, & Myers to restructure if we have to..... not saying that we should, but if we have to.

Eh... not on my agenda to make him the highest paid defensive player in the league. I want to pay him well, but I want to win more. & overpaying does not help.
It's hard for me to keep up with all your hypotheticals. I do believe you're living in some kind of Fantasy Land but you are definitely NOT LACKING in ENTHUSIASM and OPTIMISM. Your cup runneth over.
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Old 03-10-2014   #203
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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That's the way I interpret the June 1 designation. Along with carrying his full cap hit until June 1. If Schaub is released (which may not happen now) I'm in favor of taking on all $10.5 million of dead money now in 2014 and move on.
I am in full agreement with your assessment and solution. I am not a fan of, Short Term Gain = Long Term PAIN. It's the primary cause and effect of the Texans that has created many of their problems today.
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Old 03-10-2014   #204
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I am in full agreement with your assessment and solution. I am not a fan of, Short Term Gain = Long Term PAIN. It's the primary cause and effect of the Texans that has created many of their problems today.

I've always been an advocate of suffer now - play later , than play now suffer later. This pretty much separates the good franchises from the rest, and something Ol Slick Rick does not seem to understand.


Your man... Pots and pans
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Old 03-10-2014   #205
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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I am in full agreement with your assessment and solution. I am not a fan of, Short Term Gain = Long Term PAIN. It's the primary cause and effect of the Texans that has created many of their problems today.
But you can't provide any examples where that philosophy has hurt us.

We don't make a habit of paying for people who are no longer here. There was no dead money for players no longer on the roster in 2013.

Unless you're talking about paying Antonio Smith $8M in the last year of his contract & Wade Smith $5M in the last year of his when their salaries were much lower in the first years.....

But since you point to Gosder Cherilus' contract as a model of success, which is structured the exact same way.... that can't be what you're saying.
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Old 03-10-2014   #206
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Eh... not on my agenda to make him the highest paid defensive player in the league. I want to pay him well, but I want to win more. & overpaying does not help.
I just don't understand this philosophy. If you want to win then you pay the guys who deserve it. It doesn't matter if you don't think he's worth that much. The market determines his worth.

Overpaying is one thing, but letting the best defensive player in the league walk away because you won't pay him market value is completely different.
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Old 03-10-2014   #207
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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But you can't provide any examples where that philosophy has hurt us.

We don't make a habit of paying for people who are no longer here. There was no dead money for players no longer on the roster in 2013.

Unless you're talking about paying Antonio Smith $8M in the last year of his contract & Wade Smith $5M in the last year of his when their salaries were much lower in the first years.....

But since you point to Gosder Cherilus' contract as a model of success, which is structured the exact same way.... that can't be what you're saying.
For starters cutting a handful of players and trading Ryans to pay Foster when he could've tendered.

Here is the primary example: For the last 3 years the Texans have NOT had enough salary cap space to sign any notable Free agents except vet minimums. ANd the only way they have been able to complete their 53 man roster is after they have restructured player contract(s) (borrowing money). This is the Texans bad habit. Short Term Gain in exchange FOR Long Term PAIN. Contrary to popular belief a team CANNOT live by the draft alone.
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Old 03-10-2014   #208
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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But you can't provide any examples where that philosophy has hurt us.

We don't make a habit of paying for people who are no longer here. There was no dead money for players no longer on the roster in 2013.

Unless you're talking about paying Antonio Smith $8M in the last year of his contract & Wade Smith $5M in the last year of his when their salaries were much lower in the first years.....

But since you point to Gosder Cherilus' contract as a model of success, which is structured the exact same way.... that can't be what you're saying.
Kevin Walter counted $2 million dead money against the 2013 cap.
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Old 03-10-2014   #209
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Despite the "win now" mentality of McNair at the end of last year....my thoughts were to release Schaub. Renegotiate with Joseph. Let Graham walk. Retain OD and Manning. Take all possible dead money into the 2014 cap. Come out in 2015 with a good chunk of money available.
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Old 03-10-2014   #210
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Despite the "win now" mentality of McNair at the end of last year....my thoughts were to release Schaub. Renegotiate with Joseph. Let Graham walk. Retain OD and Manning. Take all possible dead money into the 2014 cap. Come out in 2015 with a good chunk of money available.
Seems like a good plan to me except I would let OD walk too if it gave me enough $$$$ to sign Soliai. That guy's a stud and would argurably help the team improve more than keeping OD. You can draft A.C. Leonard in the 5th and Najvar in the 7th and have a better TE group, plus get Soliai. Griffin looked like a reasonable replacement for OD last yr.
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Old 03-10-2014   #211
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Here is the primary example: For the last 3 years the Texans have NOT had enough salary cap space to sign any notable Free agents except vet minimums.
You would think you would try to find a primary example that bore some semblance to truth. Past three offseasons include signings of:

JJo
Manning
Ed Reed (yeah it sucked but that's irrelevant to your point)
Lechler
Derrick Ward
Mays - 154% of vet min.
Leinart
Vickers

That's on top of new contracts for key players in a tighter than normal time period.

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Kevin Walter counted $2 million dead money against the 2013 cap.
Every team in the league has minor dead money like that except in rare years. The $3.5 mil the Texans carried is guat.
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Old 03-10-2014   #212
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Despite the "win now" mentality of McNair at the end of last year....my thoughts were to release Schaub. Renegotiate with Joseph. Let Graham walk. Retain OD and Manning. Take all possible dead money into the 2014 cap. Come out in 2015 with a good chunk of money available.
Using the calculator at OTC that puts us at $23M under the cap for 2014 & $43M under the cap for 2015 with those moves.

So I'm assuming you're ok with $23M for this year & $43M for next season. But you're going to have to find a replacement for OD & Daniel Manning. Not a big thing for you because you're not looking to win very much in 2014.


If instead, we make Schaub a June 1st cut, cut Derek Newton, & cut Brice McCain that would put us at $20M below the cap for 2014 & $42M under the cap for 2015. I know you can cut McCain & Newton in your scenario as well, but I just wanted to put those numbers side by side..... We can get the money we need for this offseason & making Schaub a June 1st cut doesn't hurt us as bad next year as some of us think.

I can still renegotiate with Joseph, but if you look at our numbers, that hurts as much as taking a June 1st cut on Schaub.

I can still cut OD, or DMan, or both & keep Joseph on track with a contract expiring after the 2015 season.


The cap for 2015 is already going to go up $10M compared to this season. Making Schaub a June 1st cut simply reduces it to $3M for us.... but it's money we never had anyway. The cap then goes up again in 2016, we'll save $19M for cutting Schaub now plus the imaginary $7M that we didn't realize in 2015 (because Schaub was a June 1st 2014 cut) plus another $10M for that league year. $19M+$7M+$10M= $36M untouched dollars that you can offer Jj Watt in a front loaded contract if you want to make him the highest paid defensive player in history.
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Old 03-10-2014   #213
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Using the calculator at OTC that puts us at $23M under the cap for 2014 & $43M under the cap for 2015 with those moves.

So I'm assuming you're ok with $23M for this year & $43M for next season. But you're going to have to find a replacement for OD & Daniel Manning. Not a big thing for you because you're not looking to win very much in 2014.


If instead, we make Schaub a June 1st cut, cut Derek Newton, & cut Brice McCain that would put us at $20M below the cap for 2014 & $42M under the cap for 2015. I know you can cut McCain & Newton in your scenario as well, but I just wanted to put those numbers side by side..... We can get the money we need for this offseason & making Schaub a June 1st cut doesn't hurt us as bad next year as some of us think.

I can still renegotiate with Joseph, but if you look at our numbers, that hurts as much as taking a June 1st cut on Schaub.

I can still cut OD, or DMan, or both & keep Joseph on track with a contract expiring after the 2015 season.


The cap for 2015 is already going to go up $10M compared to this season. Making Schaub a June 1st cut simply reduces it to $3M for us.... but it's money we never had anyway. The cap then goes up again in 2016, we'll save $19M for cutting Schaub now plus the imaginary $7M that we didn't realize in 2015 (because Schaub was a June 1st 2014 cut) plus another $10M for that league year. $19M+$7M+$10M= $36M untouched dollars that you can offer Jj Watt in a front loaded contract if you want to make him the highest paid defensive player in history.

Nowhere did I say we release Daniels or Manning. I said retain them for the final year of their contract in 2014. My suggestion was only the Schaub release. Renegotiate (not restructure) with Joseph if possible. Everyone else stays.

Not sure what you are trying to say in your reply to me? In your scenario with McCain and Newton you just cut depth that were cheap to pay....still have to find their replacements at probably the same pay with some performance. Newton can stay, won't start, but he can provide depth that has playing time in the event of an injury. Only save about $2 mil by releasing McCain and Newton. Plus Newton is in the final year of his contract. Might as well use them as depth.
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Old 03-10-2014   #214
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

I am confident we will have $ to sign good FAs but concern whether good FAs will be available. Many of those I would like will be signed elsewhere.
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Old 03-10-2014   #215
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Nowhere did I say we release Daniels or Manning. I said retain them for the final year of their contract in 2014. My suggestion was only the Schaub release. Renegotiate (not restructure) with Joseph if possible. Everyone else stays.
In that case.. I was wrong.

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Not sure what you are trying to say in your reply to me? In your scenario with McCain and Newton you just cut depth that were cheap to pay....still have to find their replacements at probably the same pay with some performance. Newton can stay, won't start, but he can provide depth that has playing time in the event of an injury. Only save about $2 mil by releasing McCain and Newton. Plus Newton is in the final year of his contract. Might as well use them as depth.
I don't mean any offense, just talking.

Newton is going to make $1.4M next year. McCain $1.3M..... my pockets obviously aren't as deep as yours. I want to replace Newton with our 1st overall draft pick. McCain... I've always liked Brandon Harris better & he's cheaper. We've got Josh Victorian & Loyce Means on the roster making $500K or less already... that's what McCain should have been making, that's what his replacement should be making.

I'm replying to you, because it sounds like you thought out your response, I just wanted to put numbers to it to see how effective your moves can be. & provide the link to the overthecap salarycap calculator.

Cutting Schaub & Renegotiating Jjo, retaining OD & DMan brings us to $14M in 2014 & $43M in 2015... if you go with Texian's numbers, that $14M is really $9M after you take out the set aside money for IR replacements. the practice squad, & LTBEs..... again, according to Texian, we need about $13M to address our needs this offseason including signing our draft picks (~$8M).

We're practically in the same place by making Schaub a June 1st cut & not restructuring Jjo.
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Old 03-10-2014   #216
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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In that case.. I was wrong.



I don't mean any offense, just talking.

Newton is going to make $1.4M next year. McCain $1.3M..... my pockets obviously aren't as deep as yours. I want to replace Newton with our 1st overall draft pick. McCain... I've always liked Brandon Harris better & he's cheaper. We've got Josh Victorian & Loyce Means on the roster making $500K or less already... that's what McCain should have been making, that's what his replacement should be making.

I'm replying to you, because it sounds like you thought out your response, I just wanted to put numbers to it to see how effective your moves can be. & provide the link to the overthecap salarycap calculator.

Cutting Schaub & Renegotiating Jjo, retaining OD & DMan brings us to $14M in 2014 & $43M in 2015... if you go with Texian's numbers, that $14M is really $9M after you take out the set aside money for IR replacements. the practice squad, & LTBEs..... again, according to Texian, we need about $13M to address our needs this offseason including signing our draft picks (~$8M).

We're practically in the same place by making Schaub a June 1st cut & not restructuring Jjo.
No offense taken, salary cap is probably my favorite subject in football. I think you can get Newton's replacement in the 3rd or 4th round....no need to spend the first on a RT. No telling what B. Williams might do as well but I am not confident in him. But you need the depth...and lets be honest Newton has playing time and would be able to step in if needed.

As for McCain, you keep him for now into TC. If Means, or Lemon or Harris or one of the younger players beats out McCain...then by all means send him packing. McCain probably has a small roster bonus. Something I am willing to eat in dead money to give him another shot at TC. We have a lot of young players coming off IR probably ready to take down the vets.

With the way the QB free agents are playing out...I gotta think Smith is talking to Schaub to get him to take a reduction in pay with some incentives if he wins the starting job. I know the city wants him gone but at this point Schaub is probably the better option for a veteran QB. I would like to see his base salary lowered from $10.5m to say $5m and remove his active game bonus...replace that with statistical goals and playoff appearances.
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Old 03-10-2014   #217
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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No offense taken, salary cap is probably my favorite subject in football. I think you can get Newton's replacement in the 3rd or 4th round....no need to spend the first on a RT. No telling what B. Williams might do as well but I am not confident in him. But you need the depth...and lets be honest Newton has playing time and would be able to step in if needed.
With the new CBA & pay structure for rookies it makes all the sense in the world to take the best OT with the #1 overall. As it stands now, our season is over if we lose Duane Brown. Not the case, if Robinson is the man we think he is.... that's this year, next year, & the year after. Unless of course you get a Peyton Manning or a Russell Wilson, then it's not such a big deal.

& if Newton has to come in the game... honestly, there was not one play where I saw him & say.... "Why can't you keep doing that." or "If you could do that one more time."

Understand, I was pretty high on Newton until he got hurt in Detroit (I think it was Detroit) in 2012.... since then, not so much.

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As for McCain, you keep him for now into TC. If Means, or Lemon or Harris or one of the younger players beats out McCain...then by all means send him packing. McCain probably has a small roster bonus. Something I am willing to eat in dead money to give him another shot at TC. We have a lot of young players coming off IR probably ready to take down the vets.
I'm cool with that, but we don't have to eat his roster bonus unless he's on the roster when the season starts. There's some dead money in there whether we cut him today or Sept 8th.... so yeah, I don't have a problem carrying him through camp.

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Originally Posted by Troy Chapman View Post
With the way the QB free agents are playing out...I gotta think Smith is talking to Schaub to get him to take a reduction in pay with some incentives if he wins the starting job. I know the city wants him gone but at this point Schaub is probably the better option for a veteran QB. I would like to see his base salary lowered from $10.5m to say $5m and remove his active game bonus...replace that with statistical goals and playoff appearances.
A big enough reduction is the best way to go imo, we can still free up $10M for 2014 & if we make him a June 1, 2015 cut it's only $3.5M of dead money for 2015 & 2016. IMO it maximizes the dollars available over the next three years.
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Old 03-10-2014   #218
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Understood about Robinson and protecting the depth behind D. Brown. Robinson could be used like Eric Fisher...keep him at RT until D. Brown is gone and you move him over. 4 (or 5 year) window of two outstanding tackles. That is hard to pass up for the price you would be paying. Just not who I would want at #1, but that is another topic.

Point taken on the June 1 with Schaub. I'm just not in favor of carrying that full 14.5 through the free agency period up to June 1, despite the savings spread over two years. A month ago I was full on cut bait and go. Now I'm really thinking he stays, hopefully with that pay reduction.

On the McCain roster bonus, I was assuming it was an early roster bonus (middle of March). I don't know the specific terms of his contract, and the amount if probably small that does matter very little in the grand scheme of things.
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Old 03-10-2014   #219
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

The fact of the matter is that this team is handcuffed this year and probably next year as well given the bad contracts we handed out like candy (Schaub and Foster). It's time to pay the piper. How Rick Smith still has a job is beyond me, how does he go and give a RB in a ZBS that sort of contract? How does he give an oft injured QB even more money? It's great that we have the first pick but there is still a year or two of pain left before this team can turn the corner and really retool the roster
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Old 03-10-2014   #220
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Good discussion TroyChapman.....

On another note & not directed towards anyone in particular, but just to ramble a little bit.

Let's imagine I have a fairly decent player that I want to lock up for a few years, so I decide to offer him a contract. We agree to a 5 year arrangement with a total value of $25M/yr. I could pay him $5M/yr for the next 5 years. Simple, clean, easy.

With a salary cap of $120M, that allows me to sign 24 players at $5M/yr. 22 starters, 2 back up players... not so clean. The rules allow me to have 53 players... not so easy, & your pro-bowl players will want more than $5M/yr... not simple. Last year the salary cap was $126M

In 2010 the Texans decided to make Andre Johnson the highest paid WR in the league at that time. For the seven seasons starting in 2010 and ending with the 2016 season, Andre will earn $73.5M roughly $10.5M/yr.... That's what he gets for being the best.

If we were to have paid Andre what he was worth last season, that would have left us with $115.5M to pay the other 52 players that make up the team.

But we went to FA 3 years back to add one of the better CBs (at that time) to our ball club. Five years $48.7M roughly $9.7M...... leaving $105.8M for the remaining 51 players.

We've got a franchise LT who's signed to a 6 year $53.4M or $8.9M/yr.... leaving $96.9M to sign 50 players. Less than $2M/yr.

We can go down the whole roster, but hopefully you can see it is impossible to pay all your players what they "are worth" on an annual basis. Can't do it on a pay as you go basis, not when you're carrying 3 probowlers/All Pro players on defense, 7 on offense, only one of those 10 is playing on his rookie contract. As opposed to the Colts who had 3, maybe 4 players playing at a pro bowl level, all 4 on rookie contracts.

That's why we are in cap heck. We're paying premium dollars for our "star" players, they are not. Our stars did not perform like stars with the exception of Andre Johnson & Jj Watt, for whatever reason. Their scrubs played like All-Pros.

We've got 8 defensive starters that are either 1st round, 2nd round, or high dollar free agents. Jj Watt, Brian Cushing, Johnathan Joseph, Danieal Manning, Dj Swearinger, Kareem Jackson, Whitney Mercilus, & Brooks Reed. Hopefully RAC can add 3 scrubs to that group & find us a starting line-up.

Offensively, we've got 7 probowlers. Hopefully we can add a 1st & 2nd round pick to the group & get back to a top 10 offense..... even if it's only yards.


SalaryCap heck.
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