Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQDonate Automatic Monthly Contribution Members List Mark Forums Read


Texans Talk Football talk only please. Keep it to the game, the players, the coaches and management.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-08-2014   #141
Texian
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,875
Rep Power: 66253 Texian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
So do you think the best way to get out of the cap he** Slick Rick put the team into is to bite the bullet and cut the dead weight even if it means the team might stink next yr?

Personally for the long term good I think that might be the way to go.

Cut dead weight draft a 4th rd CB/sign a vet min guy like Mathis for example.
I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season. The Colts knowing they were in cap hell dumped all their bad contracts and dead money in to the 2012 season. As a result the Colts were $40 million under the cap in 2013 and are $40 million under the cap this year. Currently the Colts sit $75 million under the cap in 2015. Sure makes it hard for another team to compete against those $$$. What the Homers and sore losers are going to say is the Colts have spent and are spending their money unwisely. The actual truth of the matter and the facts show the Colts are Division Champs and have $40 million to spend to get even better.

What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell. It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 million to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new mediocre players. Let's see if the Texans have learned their lesson. Do they take all their dead money in 2014 or do they push as much as they can to 2015 and continue with the ill-fated processes of restructuring contracts and back loading contracts.
__________________
The GREATEST risk is not taking one. ....Bob, hire Eliot Wolf, then get the hell out of the way.
Texian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #142
Marshall 
Subscribed Contributor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,675
Rep Power: 95414 Marshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respectedMarshall is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
If I'm reading the CBA correctly, there seems to be some confusion about the impact of players cut ahead of the date but designated as June 1 cuts.

If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.

If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.


Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).



LINK

So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.
There is no long term benefit, but there is short term benefit because it opens up cap space for the immediate season and get's you under this season's cap. Future dead money and less to work with in FA are the costs of using the June 1 designation.

It's similar to the benefits of a payday loan. You get the cash right away, but the interest is outrageous. But it's worth it to avoid late payment penalties, foreclosures and repossessions.
Marshall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #143
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,490
Rep Power: 326894 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season. The Colts knowing they were in cap hell dumped all their bad contracts and dead money in to the 2012 season. As a result the Colts were $40 million under the cap in 2013 and are $40 million under the cap this year. Currently the Colts sit $75 million under the cap in 2015. Sure makes it hard for another team to compete against those $$$.
That's one way to look at it. If we make Schaub a June 1st cut, we'll be $40M under the cap in 2015... We are currently $80M under the cap for 2016. I think what you are seeing is a changing of the guard, where the Colts are parting ways with players from the old regime, as they build for the new.

Same thing happened to us 3 years ago, only difference is that Marvin Harris decided to retire & we didn't have anyone to step into Andre's place.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
What the Homers and sore losers are going to say is the Colts have spent and are spending their money unwisely. The actual truth of the matter and facts show the Colts are Division Champs and have $40 million to spend to get even better.

What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell.
Gosder Cherilus was given a $14M signing bonus & his first two years salary are $1M & $1M..... his 2015 salary will be $4M & he'll get paid $7M for 2016 & 2017. How's that front loaded?

I wonder what they plan on doing with Robert Mathis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new players. Let's see if the Texans have learned their lesson. Do they take all their dead money in 2014 or do they push as much as they can to 2015 and continue with the ill-fated processes of restructuring contracts and back loading contracts.

The lesson they need to learn is how to get the most out of their players. The "bad contracts" you are talking about are Andre Johnson, Matt Schaub, Johnathan Joseph, Arian Foster, Duane Brown, Chris Myers, Owen Daniels, Daniel Manning, Brian Cushing, Kareem Jackson, Jj Watt, Shane Lecler, & Whitney Mercilus. In that order.

We could cut Andre, Matt, Jjo, & Arian & gain money towards the cap. The only thing bad about those contracts is that only one of those guys played like they should have a big contract in 2013 & 2014.

We can cut Myers & OD & gain money towards the cap. Again, Myers earned his money. Owen is the best TE we have on the roster, when healthy, he's worth his money.

We can cut Karrem & Lecler & gain money towards the cap, but both of those guys earned their money (Kareem made some bone headed mistakes, but he's cheap for a starting corner).

We can cut Jj & it would be net neutral, neither gain or lose. I shouldn't have to tell you how much sense that does not make.

Cutting Brian Cushing & Duane Brown are the only contracts that would hurt us "cap wise" They're the only ones I can think of that could be considred "bad contracts" Because all the other ones are a net positive.

Duane Brown may not have played up to expectations, but we gave us a hometown discount when we signed him & he definitely played up to that level, so it doesn't make sense to cut him.

Brian Cushing did not contribute as much as his contract would suggest, but not because he couldn't play at that level.... he was playing pretty well, before he got hurt. This injury being an LCL (& not an ACL or Achilles) we can expect Cushing to come back & be the man we're paying him to be... so it would make no sense cutting him.

The Colts will be signing "their" guys soon enough, & they will be in "cap hell." What they are doing now, is being cautious & frugal with their FA signings, just like we were until we signed Jjo & DMan.

They'll continue to give out $15M+ signing bonuses, backloading contracts as long as it makes sense.

What we can't do is pay Andre the same way we're paying Andre & pay Jj the way everyone wants to pay him.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #144
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,490
Rep Power: 326894 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshall View Post
There is no long term benefit, but there is short term benefit because it opens up cap space for the immediate season and get's you under this season's cap. Future dead money and less to work with in FA are the costs of using the June 1 designation.

It's similar to the benefits of a payday loan. You get the cash right away, but the interest is outrageous. But it's worth it to avoid late payment penalties, foreclosures and repossessions.
The June 1st cut maximizes the available cap money over the next two years.

If we cut Matt Schaub now without the June 1st designation, our:
2014 cap goes up $4M
2015 cap goes up $17M
2016 cap goes up $19M
If we cut Matt with the June 1st designation, our:
2014 cap goes up $10M
2015 cap goes up $10M
2016 cap goes up $19M
My opinion, we're not getting ahead if we cut Matt only to sign a vet for $4M. We need more than a QB to replace Schaub if we're going to get back to winning in the short term. We should use the June 1st designation on him then we can sign players with cap hits of:
$4M veteran QB
$5M starting ILB (like D'Qwell Jackson)
$1M slot reciever
It may be wishful thinking, but I think we can get Edelman, or Meachum for a $1M cap hit, maybe even Josh Cribbs who would make an excellent slot reciever imo. But that's if we're restricted only to using money created by cutting Schaub, which we're not.

If we were instead able to talk Matt into taking a pay-cut to $4M, then cut him as a June 1st 2015 cut we'll gain:
$10M in 2014
$14M in 2015
$16M in 2016
But I doubt Rick Smith has the skillz to pull that off.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #145
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 49,452
Rep Power: 416490 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season.

What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell. It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 million to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new mediocre players.
You raise solid points but IMO oversell Indy's situation a bit. They are going to take chunks out of that $80 mil to retain folks to maintain their level of play, e.g. Vonte Davis who they have had for a total of $2.7 mil for the last two years who in all likelihood will be lost if not signed to a contract larger than the $8 mil/year Grimes contract. They are going to take a hit on either performance or cap for Brown as well. Our need to retain list for significant players is nil this offseason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
The lesson they need to learn is how to get the most out of their players. The "bad contracts" you are talking about are Andre Johnson, Matt Schaub, Johnathan Joseph, Arian Foster, Duane Brown, Chris Myers, Owen Daniels, Daniel Manning, Brian Cushing, Kareem Jackson, Jj Watt, Shane Lecler, & Whitney Mercilus. In that order.
How are you defining bad contract? Duane Brown is playing for well less than his market value. JJ, KJ and Mercilus are on dirt cheap rookie contracts. Even Mercilus isn't overpaid on his performance level and JJ is monumentally under market value.
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #146
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,490
Rep Power: 326894 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
You raise solid points but IMO oversell Indy's situation a bit. They are going to take chunks out of that $80 mil to retain folks to maintain their level of play, e.g. Vonte Davis who they have had for a total of $2.7 mil for the last two years who in all likelihood will be lost if not signed to a contract larger than the $8 mil/year Grimes contract. They are going to take a hit on either performance or cap for Brown as well. Our need to retain list for significant players is nil this offseason.



How are you defining bad contract? Duane Brown is playing for well less than his market value. JJ, KJ and Mercilus are on dirt cheap rookie contracts. Even Mercilus isn't overpaid on his performance level and JJ is monumentally under market value.
I'm pointing to those guys as the reason we don't have $80M of cap space. I don't think they are "bad contracts" in the real sense of the word, just trying to meet Texian halfway.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #147
Texian
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,875
Rep Power: 66253 Texian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I'm pointing to those guys as the reason we don't have $80M of cap space. I don't think they are "bad contracts" in the real sense of the word, just trying to meet Texian halfway.
The reason the Texans don't have $80 million or even enough million to sign FA for more than Vet minimums (or a tad more is) is because they've spent more money than they've had in their salary cap bank the past 3 years. It's that Plain & Simple! The Texans have borrowed from future seasons to meet their current obligations. The jury is still out on the 2014 season. With the mindset that manages the salary cap still in place, the pattern of behavior says, expect more of the same.

If the Texans continue to mortgage the future, as expected, that basically destroys all of your future projections.

As for Gosder Cherilus you mistakenly miss the point. You're right about the salary cap being higher in the last 2 years of the contract. Where you missed is if Cherilus is cut in those last 2 years there is a substantial salary cap savings. Over 65% of Cherilus dead money is in the first 2 years of the contract. If Gosder is cut in yr4 it's a $5 mil cap savings and yr 5 is a $7.9 mil cap savings.

D'Quell Jackson is another example of the Colts using the pay as you go method instead of borrowing from tomorrow. If Jackson is cut after his first 2 years the dead money is only $500K and the cap savings is $5 mil.
__________________
The GREATEST risk is not taking one. ....Bob, hire Eliot Wolf, then get the hell out of the way.

Last edited by Texian; 03-08-2014 at 12:24 PM.
Texian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #148
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,490
Rep Power: 326894 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
The reason the Texans don't have $80 million or even enough million to sign FA for more than Vet minimums (or a tad more is) is because they've spent more money than they've had in their salary cap bank the past 3 years. It's that Plain & Simple! The Texans have borrowed from future seasons to meet their current obligations. The jury is still out on the 2014 season. With the mindset that manages the salary cap still in place, the pattern of behavior says, expect more of the same.
You must be talking about Andre's money. That's the only place such a description can come close to true. Except he's still one of the better receivers in the league & we're paying him as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
If the Texans continue to mortgage the future, as expected, that basically destroys all of your future projections.

As for Gosder Cherilus you mistakenly miss the point. You're right about the salary cap being higher in the last 2 years of the contract. Where you missed is if Cherilus is cut in those last 2 years there is a substantial salary cap savings. Over 65% of Cherilus dead money is in the first 2 years of the contract. If Gosder is cut in yr4 it's a $5 mil cap savings and yr 5 is a $7.9 mil cap savings.
How do you figure? Gosder signed a $35M contract. Only $7.8M is accounted for in the first two years... 22% of the contract. If he is cut in year 3 (2015) there's still $8.7M that must be accounted for. They lose $1.8M towards their salary cap.

Schaub's contract allows us to cut him in the third year (2014) & we're up $4M.... Cut him in year 4 & we're up $10M, year 5... $15M

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
D'Quell Jackson is another example of the Colts using the pay as you go method instead of borrowing from tomorrow. If Jackson is cut after his first 2 years the dead money is only $500K and the cap savings is $5 mil.
Schaub's on a much bigger contract, $60M vs $22m. We cut Schaub after 2 years & we save $4M towards the cap, they only save $1M more & you think that's a better structure??

I'm sorry... I'm sure your way of thinking is based in logic, but for the life of me I can't see it. Sounds like "anything but the Texans' way" hate to me.

Kinda like "more Catholic than the Pope" thinking.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #149
infantrycak
Lead Moderator
 
infantrycak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 47
Posts: 49,452
Rep Power: 416490 infantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respectedinfantrycak is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
As for Gosder Cherilus you mistakenly miss the point. You're right about the salary cap being higher in the last 2 years of the contract. Where you missed is if Cherilus is cut in those last 2 years there is a substantial salary cap savings. Over 65% of Cherilus dead money is in the first 2 years of the contract. If Gosder is cut in yr4 it's a $5 mil cap savings and yr 5 is a $7.9 mil cap savings.

D'Quell Jackson is another example of the Colts using the pay as you go method instead of borrowing from tomorrow. If Jackson is cut after his first 2 years the dead money is only $500K and the cap savings is $5 mil.
Gosder Cherilus - net cap savings after 2nd season.
D'Quell Jackson - after 2nd season.

Matt Schaub - after 2nd season.
Brian Cushing - after 3rd season.
Danieal Manning - after 2nd season.
Owen Daniels - after 2nd season.
JJo - dead even in 3rd, net savings after.
Arian Foster - after 2nd season.
Duane Brown - after 3rd season.
Chris Myers - after 2nd season.

Looks like you are exaggerating the difference.
__________________
The Art of War
infantrycak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #150
Texian
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,875
Rep Power: 66253 Texian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Looks like you are exaggerating the difference.
Not when you consider the amounts. On average Colts contracts offer a substantial cap savings after their 2nd and 3rd years. The Texans contracts usually don't offer a substantial cap savings until after their 3rd and 4th years.
__________________
The GREATEST risk is not taking one. ....Bob, hire Eliot Wolf, then get the hell out of the way.
Texian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #151
Texian
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,875
Rep Power: 66253 Texian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
You must be talking about Andre's money. That's the only place such a description can come close to true. Except he's still one of the better receivers in the league & we're paying him as such.



How do you figure? Gosder signed a $35M contract. Only $7.8M is accounted for in the first two years... 22% of the contract. If he is cut in year 3 (2015) there's still $8.7M that must be accounted for. They lose $1.8M towards their salary cap.

Schaub's contract allows us to cut him in the third year (2014) & we're up $4M.... Cut him in year 4 & we're up $10M, year 5... $15M



Schaub's on a much bigger contract, $60M vs $22m. We cut Schaub after 2 years & we save $4M towards the cap, they only save $1M more & you think that's a better structure??

I'm sorry... I'm sure your way of thinking is based in logic, but for the life of me I can't see it. Sounds like "anything but the Texans' way" hate to me.

Kinda like "more Catholic than the Pope" thinking.
You, me, we will never likely agree on salary cap management. If we both had Salary Cap Credit Cards, I pay mine in full each billing cycle. You on the other hand would not only max out your credit limit but would also finesse and finagle ways to exceed your credit limit much the way the Texans currently have done. You would then pay the minimum payment plus any amounts over your credit limit. Therefore each new year, I will have more available credit and considerably more $$$ to spend while your credit card is still maxed out and you're still making the minimum payment.
__________________
The GREATEST risk is not taking one. ....Bob, hire Eliot Wolf, then get the hell out of the way.
Texian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #152
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,490
Rep Power: 326894 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
You, me, we will never likely agree on salary cap management. If we both had Salary Cap Credit Cards, I pay mine in full each billing cycle.
That's ridiculous. Nobody starts with a fresh cap every year. You're either paying for players, or you're not. Tom Brady has a contract that runs through the next 5 years. They can not cut him & come out ahead for the next 3 years.

This is the Patriots we're talking about, the team you hold up on a pedestal for their brilliant cap management. They have $12M of cap room now, we have $8M. We both fall short of the Colts $80M, but the Patriots will somehow find a way to field a competitive team in 2014.

Why is that?
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #153
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,490
Rep Power: 326894 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
You, me, we will never likely agree on salary cap management. If we both had Salary Cap Credit Cards, I pay mine in full each billing cycle. You on the other hand would not only max out your credit limit but would also finesse and finagle ways to exceed your credit limit much the way the Texans currently have done. You would then pay the minimum payment plus any amounts over your credit limit. Therefore each new year, I will have more available credit and considerably more $$$ to spend while your credit card is still maxed out and you're still making the minimum payment.
& the way you're talking about paying minimum amount & exceeding my limit... that only makes sense (fits this application) if we're paying for players who are no longer here. We aren't.

Every dime we spent in 2013 went to players who are on the roster (IR included).

If we cut Schaub & push the dead money (which is what I want to do) it would be a rare moment in Rick Smiths tenure, if not the first time.

I wanted to extend Antonio Smith last offseason instead of paying him $8M. Convert that salary into a signing bonus & lock him up for the next three years. Back load the contract & cut him with very little cap implication 4 or 5 years from now. That's not "mortgaging the future" if you believe Antonio has 3 good years left.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #154
Texian
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,875
Rep Power: 66253 Texian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
That's ridiculous. Nobody starts with a fresh cap every year. You're either paying for players, or you're not.
The point being is I never have to borrow money to make payroll and I start each new year with enough money in the bank to hire a few high profile employees and several more above average employees to improve my depth.

You have to make arrangements at the bank, again, to borrow more money in order to make your payroll. You then only have enough money to pay minimum wage to the dozen or so players you need to complete your roster. Your depth is a reflection of what you're paying for.
__________________
The GREATEST risk is not taking one. ....Bob, hire Eliot Wolf, then get the hell out of the way.
Texian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #155
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,490
Rep Power: 326894 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
The point being is I never have to borrow money to make payroll and I start each new year with enough money in the bank to hire a few high profile employees and several more above average employees to improve my depth.

You have to make arrangements at the bank, again, to borrow more money in order to make your payroll. You then only have enough money to pay minimum wage to the dozen or so players you need to complete your roster. Your depth is a reflection of what you're paying for.
I don't think that's very realistic. It's really all cyclical depending on the state of your team. We were exactly where we should have been considering we thought we were two players away when we signed Jjo & DMan.

We just failed to capitalize on the investment we made. Whether that was due to coaching, injury, or poor evaluation of talent. The Patriots have been here, the Ravens were recently, the Steelers were recently, The Colts were recently, the Seahawks will have their day.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #156
Texian
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,875
Rep Power: 66253 Texian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
& the way you're talking about paying minimum amount & exceeding my limit... that only makes sense (fits this application) if we're paying for players who are no longer here. We aren't.

Every dime we spent in 2013 went to players who are on the roster (IR included).

If we cut Schaub & push the dead money (which is what I want to do) it would be a rare moment in Rick Smiths tenure, if not the first time.

I wanted to extend Antonio Smith last offseason instead of paying him $8M. Convert that salary into a signing bonus & lock him up for the next three years. Back load the contract & cut him with very little cap implication 4 or 5 years from now. That's not "mortgaging the future" if you believe Antonio has 3 good years left.
Let me try to explain it to you this way...

This past week, the week before free agency begins, the Colts signed D'Qwell Jackson and the Jaguars signed Red Byrant. The Texans could not afford either.

Now here is the real kicker, the Colts and the Jaguars, could do similar signings 6 or 7 more times with 5X the money to spend than the Texans, the Texans are still not in this ball game.

2013 Scoreboard: Colts 2, Texans 0; Jaguars 2, Texans 0.

The Colts and Jaguars are getting considerably better in 2014 and the Texans are still maintaining the Status Quo.
__________________
The GREATEST risk is not taking one. ....Bob, hire Eliot Wolf, then get the hell out of the way.
Texian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #157
ObsiWan
Site Contributor
 
ObsiWan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: League City, Tx
Age: 63
Posts: 15,268
Rep Power: 293364 ObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respectedObsiWan is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Let me try to explain it to you this way...

This past week, the week before free agency begins, the Colts signed D'Qwell Jackson and the Jaguars signed Red Byrant. The Texans could not afford either.

Now here is the real kicker, the Colts and the Jaguars, could do similar signings 6 or 7 more times with 5X the money to spend than the Texans, the Texans are still not in this ball game.

2013 Scoreboard: Colts 2, Texans 0; Jaguars 2, Texans 0.

The Colts and Jaguars are getting considerably better in 2014 and the Texans are still maintaining the Status Quo.
Changing?
Yes.

Getting better?
That remains to be seen. We've all seen players that excel on one team, leave for a "sweet" F/A payday and then fail miserably with the new squad.
ObsiWan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #158
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,490
Rep Power: 326894 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Let me try to explain it to you this way...

This past week, the week before free agency begins, the Colts signed D'Qwell Jackson and the Jaguars signed Red Byrant. The Texans could not afford either.

Now here is the real kicker, the Colts and the Jaguars, could do similar signings 6 or 7 more times, the Texans still not in this ball game.

2013 Scoreboard: Colts 2, Texans 0; Jaguars 2, Texans 0.

The Colts and Jaguars are getting considerably better in 2014 and the Texans are still maintaining the Status Quo.
We could have easily signed D'Qwell Jackson & depending on the structure of Red Bryant's deal, we probably could have done that too.

The Jags can do it 10 times over, that's not what's going to make them better.

Had we avoided injury to key players, Arian, Cushing, OD, Manning & the other Texans played up to their contracts, most notably Matt Schaub, we'd have been in the divisional round again. Can't say the same for the Jags.

Our problem isn't that we've mortgaged our future, it's that we paid guys like Derek Newton & Brice McCain $1M. While they paid that money to Ty Hilton & Vontae Davis.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #159
Texian
Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,875
Rep Power: 66253 Texian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respectedTexian is a quality contributor and well respected
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by ObsiWan View Post
Changing?
Yes.

Getting better?
That remains to be seen. We've all seen players that excel on one team, leave for a "sweet" F/A payday and then fail miserably with the new squad.
Putting all the if's and's and but's aside, the point and the question is: Who has the competitive advantage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
We could have easily signed D'Qwell Jackson & depending on the structure of Red Bryant's deal, we probably could have done that too.

The Jags can do it 10 times over, that's not what's going to make them better.

Had we avoided injury to key players, Arian, Cushing, OD, Manning & the other Texans played up to their contracts, most notably Matt Schaub, we'd have been in the divisional round again. Can't say the same for the Jags.

Our problem isn't that we've mortgaged our future, it's that we paid guys like Derek Newton & Brice McCain $1M. While they paid that money to Ty Hilton & Vontae Davis.
By easily if you mean by pushing as much dead money to 2015 as possible and restructuring several more contracts and borrowing more money from the future then YES.

The Texans are currently $10 million under the cap, of which $5 million must be allocated to IR replacements, LTBEs and Practice Squad. That leaves $5 million to replace 15 contracts now missing as a result of free agency, then the answer is a BIG FAT NO!

Now if want to start with all your if's and's and but's, what about this and what about thats, finesse and finagle then you can make a case for signing Jackson. There is NO WAY the Texans could sign another 6 or 7 players of similar value like both the Colts and Jaguars can. Regardless what your Hocus Pocus bag of tricks is telling you, It Ain't Gonna Happen!
__________________
The GREATEST risk is not taking one. ....Bob, hire Eliot Wolf, then get the hell out of the way.
Texian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2014   #160
thunderkyss 
& so it begins
 
thunderkyss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Texas
Age: 42
Posts: 36,490
Rep Power: 326894 thunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respectedthunderkyss is a quality contributor and well respected
Send a message via Yahoo to thunderkyss
Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Now if want to start with all your if's and's and but's, what about this and what about thats, finesse and finagle then you can make a case for signing Jackson. There is NO WAY the Texans could sign another 6 or 7 players of similar value like both the Colts and Jaguars can. Regardless what your Hocus Pocus bag of tricks is telling you, It Ain't Gonna Happen!
I didn't say we could sign Jackson & 6 or 7 other contracts. I said we could absolutely easily signed Jackson. With an $11M signing bonus & a 4 year $22M contract, his cap is most likely $3M or less.

& unlike the Jags, we don't need to sign 6 or 7 similarly valued deals to field a winning team.
__________________
thunderkyss is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Houston Texans Message Board & Forum - TexansTalk.com > The Great Fans of the Houston Texans > Texans Talk
Home Forums Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ad Management by RedTyger