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Old 03-03-2014   #21
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

You're right on all those, over trying effects everything where speed of movement is an issue.
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Old 03-03-2014   #22
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

We aren't talking some immutable law of nature like the speed of light here folks. People can clearly change the velocity of all the things being mentioned. They also balance considerations of speed and accuracy.

otisbean - that is not a denial that the effects you are describing do come into play in some instances.
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Old 03-03-2014   #23
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

Velocity can certianly change, but over trying in velocity based events typically leads to a reduction in performance. The key is to learn to increase the primary muscles ability to create tension (specifically explosive strength as you have a limited time to apply force) and motor control to properly activate and reactive the appropriate muscles. Elite athletes can just do this naturally, this why they often look effortless when performing.

It's interesting, this bleeding of tension into other muscles actually helps strength based event, for example trying to squeeze the bar as hard as possible when benching or dead lifting.
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Old 03-03-2014   #24
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Thanks for answering. Not sure I'm buying what he's selling but it's an answer.

I think a guy with a ? on his arm (Keenum, Schaub, Manziel, Bortles) is going to come in and push it harder than a guy with a big arm (Flacco, Mallett, Mettenberger) and that's why we see such a tight grouping of speeds.

Big arm -> concentrates on accuracy possibly sacrificing speed.
? arm -> concentrates on speed possibly sacrificing accuracy.
I agree with this.

I think it's really simple actually. A guy can put a little extra on the ball in a game when he feels like he needs to.


When a guy is in a game and he sees a window that he needs to squeeze the ball into he puts some extra extra on it.

Now if a guy is jacking up his mechanics so bad that the ball is actually coming out slower, that's something else. That's nerves or something.

But to imply that guys can't put more on the ball when they feel they need to is kind of ridiculous.
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Old 03-03-2014   #25
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

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I agree with this.

I think it's really simple actually. A guy can put a little extra on the ball in a game when he feels like he needs to.


When a guy is in a game and he sees a window that he needs to squeeze the ball into he puts some extra extra on it.

Now if a guy is jacking up his mechanics so bad that the ball is actually coming out slower, that's something else. That's nerves or something.

But to imply that guys can't put more on the ball when they feel they need to is kind of ridiculous.
I don't think anybody is saying an athlete can't put a little more into something, whether it's throwing a pass, hitting a serve in tennis or sprinting. In these instances the necessary muscles fire with a bit more oomph and the motor control is still there to control tension. Where you get into problems is when you over try and motor control is reduced.

Think of it this way, you have maximum effort and operational effort. If a QBs maximum velocity is 62mph, he's not throwing every pass at 62, even on hard throws or in cases of squeezing the ball into windows, he may be operating at 59-60mph. It's when he tries to throw 65mph that he'll run into the issues I'm talking about.
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Old 03-03-2014   #26
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

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Velocity can certianly change, but over trying in velocity based events typically leads to a reduction in performance.
I don't think we are actually disagreeing. If so, it is on whether the QBs have entered the over trying zone on these velocity measurements. Maybe some have but I don't think that is generally the case.

To me this is akin to Spinal Tap. I'm talking about turning the amp up from 8 to 10 (with 8 being the most accurate setting) and you are talking about trying to turn it to 11.
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Old 03-03-2014   #27
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

I got ya
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Old 03-03-2014   #28
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I don't think we are actually disagreeing. If so, it is on whether the QBs have entered the over trying zone on these velocity measurements. Maybe some have but I don't think that is generally the case.

To me this is akin to Spinal Tap. I'm talking about turning the amp up from 8 to 10 (with 8 being the most accurate setting) and you are talking about trying to turn it to 11.
This.

Of course a guy trying to conjur the power of the gods in his arm can look foolish
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Old 03-04-2014   #29
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

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Originally Posted by otisbean View Post
If a thrower tries to "over" throw their velocity typically drops. Sports performance is all about manipulating tense to create force. One of the things you'll find with elite athletes, it's not just how much tension they can produce in working muscles it's also how quite the antagonistic muscles are as well. Effectively everything is working in concert. If you try to over throw then the muscles that are supposed to be shut off and up being tensed as well creating an opposing force thus reducing the total output.

For example, using completely arbitrary numbers, if a thrower stays relaxed and loose when throwing, his tricep may fire at an 8 while the tension in his bicep drops to a 1. If the same guy over throws, his tricep may fire at a 8.5 but his bicep is now at a 2.5-3 so the net result is indeed lower. This can happen all along the kinetic chain as well
Nice concise presentation!
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Old 03-04-2014   #30
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Default Re: Quarterback Ball Velocity at NFL Combine 2008-2014

Thanks Doc! I've been in the sports performance business since the mid 90s so I've had a lot of practice haha
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