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Old 03-03-2014   #121
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

JoJo needs more pass rush from the LB's, he and Kareem got hung out to dry a lot last year.
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Old 03-03-2014   #122
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Depends which free agency period you are talking about. Making Schaub a June 1st cut means more money for free agency this year and less next year.
Initial free agency period. If there is a player they Texans really want; would be best to have the money now to sign him as opposed to waiting until June 1 to sign some players.
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Old 03-03-2014   #123
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Could you designate JoJo as a post June 1st cut and go ahead and cut Schaub. Then have the FA $$$$ from both of their contracts? Although the savings from Schaub would only be about 2 mil instead of 4 mil.

How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.
Cut JoJo today save $3.75m towards the cap, take on $7.5m in dead money.
Cut JoJo today with June 1 designation save (I think) $7.5m towards the cap, take on $3.75m dead money in 2014 and $3.75m dead money in 2015.

Not much difference just depends how you want to take on the dead money. But honestly I don't see him going anywhere for 2014. Maybe a pay cut but I doubt it. I just hope they don't extend him to lower the cap hit now. Just let him play out his contract, or at least play out 2014 then release next offseason.
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Old 03-03-2014   #124
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Could you designate JoJo as a post June 1st cut and go ahead and cut Schaub. Then have the FA $$$$ from both of their contracts? Although the savings from Schaub would only be about 2 mil instead of 4 mil.

How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.
Dead money.

Schaub (2014 cap hit - $14.125, 2015 - $17): straight cut $10.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.5 mil 2014 and $7 mil 2015

JJo (2014 cap hit - $11.25, 2015 - $12.25): straight cut $7.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.75 mil 2014 and $3.75 mil 2015

But remember, cutting JJo to get Orakpo doesn't get you another starting CB so you need money for that as well.

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Don't know about PFF rankings but JoJO wasn't in my top 25 CB rankings. I thought Mathis played just as well as JoJo last yr.
And your penchant for hyperbole just ran amuck.

Edit - sorry, thought you were talking McCain.

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Cut JoJo today save $3.75m towards the cap, take on $7.5m in dead money.
Cut JoJo today with June 1 designation save $3.75m towards the cap, take on $3.75m in dead money in 2014 and $3.75m in dead money in 2015.
No. If he is a June 1st cut, it would make $7.375 cap space in 2014.
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Old 03-03-2014   #125
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Don't know about PFF rankings but JoJO wasn't in my top 25 CB rankings. I thought Mathis played just as well as JoJo last yr.

I'm really just trying to find the cap $$$$ to bring Orakpo home. He/Watt/Clowney would bring to the defense what it has been missing.
Mathis played very well last year. It was nice to see because he was a very good player when he was younger. However, this is also the same guy who will be 34 this year and has been on IR in 3 of the past 6 seasons.

I'd love to bring Orakpo home as well, but cutting your best cover guy to do it is not the way IMO. CB is one of our weakest positions on defense.
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Old 03-03-2014   #126
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Could you designate JoJo as a post June 1st cut and go ahead and cut Schaub. Then have the FA $$$$ from both of their contracts? Although the savings from Schaub would only be about 2 mil instead of 4 mil.

How much cap room would designating JoJo as a June 1st cut give the Texans to spend in FA compared to doing the Same with Schaub? I'm not a cap kinda guy.
According to the CBA, IIRC, you can DESIGNATE (2) players as June 1 cuts. Short term GAIN = long term PAIN
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Old 03-03-2014   #127
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Dead money.

Schaub (2014 cap hit - $14.125, 2015 - $17): straight cut $10.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.5 mil 2014 and $7 mil 2015

JJo (2014 cap hit - $11.25, 2015 - $12.25): straight cut $7.5 2014, June 1st cut $3.75 mil 2014 and $3.75 mil 2015

But remember, cutting JJo to get Orakpo doesn't get you another starting CB so you need money for that as well.



And your penchant for hyperbole just ran amuck.

Edit - sorry, thought you were talking McCain.



No. If he is a June 1st cut, it would make $7.375 cap space in 2014.
I was editing as you posted.
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Old 03-03-2014   #128
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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I was editing as you posted.
Cool. I do that all the time - post, look at it again, see a mistake and go back to fix it.
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Old 03-03-2014   #129
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Cool. I do that all the time - post, look at it again, see a mistake and go back to fix it.
Rogo. Just glad they finally set the number. Now I have my spreadsheet updated properly.
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Old 03-03-2014   #130
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

So in a year where there are minimal starting FAs for positions we could strengthen, there is money to use? Seems to be same with the draft 2014. sigh
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Old 03-03-2014   #131
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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So in a year where there are minimal starting FAs for positions we could strengthen, there is money to use? Seems to be same with the draft 2014. sigh
D'Quell Jackson is out there but we do not appear to be making any move. There will be upgrades to McCain available as there are for Newton. Also possibly for NT.
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Old 03-03-2014   #132
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

If I'm reading the CBA correctly, there seems to be some confusion about the impact of players cut ahead of the date but designated as June 1 cuts.

If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.

If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.
Quote:
For any player removed from the Team’s roster, or whose Contract is assigned to another Club via waivers or trade, on or before June 1 in any League Year prior to the Final League Year, or at any time during the Final League Year, any unamortized signing bonus amounts will be included in Team Salary for such League Year, except that for each League Year preceding the Final League Year, each Club may desig-nate up to two Player Contracts that, if terminated on or prior to June 1 and if not renegotiated after the last regular season game of the prior League Year, shall be treated (except to the extent prescribed by Section 6(d)(iv) below) as if terminated on June 2, i.e., the Salary Cap charge for each such contract will remain in the Club’s Team Salary until June 2, at which time its Paragraph 5 Salary and any unearned LTBE incentives will no longer be counted and any unamortized signing bonus will be treated as set forth in Subsection (2) below.
Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).

Quote:
I think where many people get confused, though, is when they hear that “player x” could be designated a June 1 cut and immediately jump to conclusions that it means a spending spree in March. The league allows each team to designate up to two players per year as a June 1 cut for cap purposes prior to June 1. It’s the one concession that was given to the players as it allows a player to be cut in March and have time to explore free agency but have his cap hit spread out over two seasons, thus creating more cap space in the current year. The issue though is the mechanism by which this works.

When you designate someone as a June 1 cut the player and his current contract remain on the books until June 1.
LINK

So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.
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Old 03-03-2014   #133
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
If I'm reading the CBA correctly, there seems to be some confusion about the impact of players cut ahead of the date but designated as June 1 cuts.

If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.

If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.


Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).



LINK

So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.
I suppose if a team was very close to the cap they could ride the line until June 2nd, and then wait for the space to be freed up. Then spend that money on their draft pick's contracts. That might be one way to finagle a way to utilize the space in free agency, but it might mean your new guys miss a few days of a OTAs. I can't really think of any good examples of guys who were designated June 1st cuts though.
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Old 03-03-2014   #134
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Spot on champion.

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I can't really think of any good examples of guys who were designated June 1st cuts though.
Here is a list of 10 teams last year - Link
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Old 03-03-2014   #135
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post
If I'm reading the CBA correctly, there seems to be some confusion about the impact of players cut ahead of the date but designated as June 1 cuts.

If a player is designated as a June 1 cut, the contract (and salary cap impact) still stays in place through June 1, even though the player is able to immediately sign with another team. Therefore, any cap room generated by the move isn't available until June 2, or well after the prime free agent signing period. Cutting a player outright (no June 1 designation) puts all the dead money in the current salary cap year, but it also recognizes any money saved against the cap immediately, making it available to sign free agents as soon as the player is cut.

If anyone out there thinks I'm reading this wrong, here's the language from the CBA (Article 13, Section 6 (ii)(1), (Bolding added for emphasis). I'd welcome any guidance correcting my understanding.


Additionally, here's a snippet of an article from "Under the Cap.com" from last off-season that addresses this topic, and seems to confirm my interpretation. The example used is for Steve Breaston, who was released by the Chiefs in Feb. of 2013 and designated a June 1 cut (once again, bolding added for emphasis).



LINK

So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.
IF the dead money hit is big, some teams like to spread it out over two years....but carrying it all until June 1 is the penalty for doing so. So teams need to relief spread over two years. Some may look at 2015 and see some contracts expiring, so they spread it over to get more gain this year as opposed to 2015.

Thanks for the research. The June 1 deal can be confusing for some. Just look at the numbers to understand how it works.
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Old 03-03-2014   #136
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

This piece leads you through step by step the implications of the June 1st designation to both the player and the team. It looks like it can get tricky depending on the structure of the player's contract.

Salary Re-Capping: The Post-June 1 Designation And Quintin Mikell
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Old 03-03-2014   #137
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by ChampionTexan View Post

So in essence, if the Texans cut Schaub today and make it an outright cut, they've generated $3.625 Million (Current cap hit of $14.125M less dead money of $10.5 M), whereas if they cut him and designate him a June 1 cut, they generate no cap space until June 2, at which time they would get $10,625M in space, but also see the difference of $7M count against their 2015 cap.

So the final question is - if there's no cap benefit to a June 1 designation, why do it? Well, it gives the player a head start on signing with another team, but I can't really think of an example of the team benefitting, so if anybody else can, pass it on.
I think Schaub as a June 1st cut is the way to go. $3.625M is nothing, especially considering the league just gave us $10M. We won't realize the savings until June 2nd, but it's substantial compared to cutting him before. It more than doubles the money available. >$7M in 2014, & ~$10M in 2015 (even though we're carrying $7M in dead money).

I don't think it's fleecing our future, the money for Schaub is already accounted for in the cap for 2014 & 2015. $14M for 2014, $17M for 2015. Making him a June 1st cut adds money to our cap both years.
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Old 03-03-2014   #138
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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According to the CBA, IIRC, you can DESIGNATE (2) players as June 1 cuts. Short term GAIN = long term PAIN
So do you think the best way to get out of the cap he** Slick Rick put the team into is to bite the bullet and cut the dead weight even if it means the team might stink next yr?

Personally for the long term good I think that might be the way to go.

Cut dead weight draft a 4th rd CB/sign a vet min guy like Mathis for example.
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Old 03-03-2014   #139
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
So do you think the best way to get out of the cap he** Slick Rick put the team into is to bite the bullet and cut the dead weight even if it means the team might stink next yr?

Personally for the long term good I think that might be the way to go.

Cut dead weight draft a 4th rd CB/sign a vet min guy like Mathis for example.
I think we're in cap hell if we don't expect our paid players to perform up to their cap hit.

Schaub..... no brainer. I don't believe Schaub's mother thinks we should take a $14M cap hit for him.

Andre.... I love the guy, he should retire a Texan, but no one is worth $15M but an elite QB.

Johnathan Joseph... he hasn't been worth $11M in 2 of the last three years. He needs to take a paycut (imo), renegotiate, or try to peddle his wares elsewhere. We gain $3.7M to cut him, I'd rather ask him to take a $5M paycut.

Duane Brown.... didn't perform like an elite LT last season. $8M is very good LT money. I reasonably expect him to earn that money in 2014, but I'm not against drafting an OT in the first round to put him on notice.

Arian Foster.... I expect him to earn his $8M & then some. He's due.

Chris Myers... I expect him to earn every bit of $7M

Owen Daniels.... turns 32 in November, coming off a broken leg.... Tony Gonzales only cost the Chiefs $5.3M last year, Owens going to hit us for $6.2M

Daniel Manning.... I don't like it, but I'd rather bring him back for $6M than try to find someone with his work ethic & leadership skills. But it's a gamble.

Yeah... I can see "cap hell" but I don't think it's about mismanaging the cap, it's more like hitting snake eyes on every roll of the dice.
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Old 03-08-2014   #140
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Default Re: Texans' Cap space......and the rest of the League

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
So do you think the best way to get out of the cap he** Slick Rick put the team into is to bite the bullet and cut the dead weight even if it means the team might stink next yr?

Personally for the long term good I think that might be the way to go.

Cut dead weight draft a 4th rd CB/sign a vet min guy like Mathis for example.
I think the best way to get out of cap hell is the process used by the Colts in 2012 season. The Colts knowing they were in cap hell dumped all their bad contracts and dead money in to the 2012 season. As a result the Colts were $40 million under the cap in 2013 and are $40 million under the cap this year. Currently the Colts sit $75 million under the cap in 2015. Sure makes it hard for another team to compete against those $$$. What the Homers and sore losers are going to say is the Colts have spent and are spending their money unwisely. The actual truth of the matter and facts show the Colts are Division Champs and have $40 million to spend to get even better.

What the Colts are doing now is front loading their contracts and protecting themselves from cap hell. It is very hard for the Texans to compete against a team that has over $80 to spend over two years when the Texans only have $10 million to spend. That's a lot of good new players vs only 1 or 2 new players. Let's see if the Texans have learned their lesson. Do they take all their dead money in 2014 or do they push as much as they can to 2015 and continue with the ill-fated processes of restructuring contracts and back loading contracts.
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