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Old 02-25-2014   #2561
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Default Re: Manziel

Am I the only one that thinks Wilson is only a good QB on a great team who's got potential to get much better?
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Old 02-25-2014   #2562
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
You've got to be kidding. There is no question who was the better college QB or nfl prospect. If Wilson was so great in college why didn't he get drafted sooner? Why wasn't he even considered a first round prospect. Hate on Manziel all you wNt but it's silly to suggest what you are saying.

If Wilson was coming out this year and did exactly what he did his career at Wisconsin, he would be a late second round pick at best.

Manziel is being considered for the number one overall pick. No contest.
I honestly can't say what kind of prospect Wilson was before being drafted in the third round.

I do not know how much of Manziel's "success" or even being look at in the first round can be attributed to Wilson.

I don't believe a third rounder (Wilson) will vault to a first rounder (Manziel) because Wilson won the Super Bowl.

Johnny Manziel was on everybody's radar since he was a Heisman candidate as a freshman. People like watching him play. It's frigg'n exciting. Watching him was like watching Vick, Newton, or Young. Guys drafted as early as they were, not because they played in a pro system or have prototypical measurements, but because they were pretty damn exciting to watch.

If Manziel had run a 4.3, 4.4 forty, or had the size of Cam Newton or Vince Young, he'd have been a consensus top 5 pick (<--hyperbole). Whether Russell Wilson won the Super Bowl or not.

That doesn't mean Manziel was a better QB than Wilson, a better college football player, sure, but not necessarily a better QB.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2563
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
His last three seasons are a portrait in efficiency. Set the all time rating record in college then became one of if not the only QB to start their career with two 100+ rating seasons.
And when he was at NCState, all they did was throw the ball down the field to no name receivers. He was successful in a terrible situation with a coach that, in my opinion, was not good at all. His last year at NCState, Wilson was asked to throw the ball 40 times per game and run it 11 times per game. The play calling was absolutely horrific to watch.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2564
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
Wilson was a more effective and more efficient passer in college than Manziel. Anybody who saw the two play would agree, unless they had some sort of bias. Wilson also played with a much less talented roster than Manziel. Mussop has clearly demonstrated a bias toward Manziel during this draft cycle, so no surprise to hear his opinion.

Anyway, this is a rehash conversation, but that's basically what this thread has been for the last month or so.
You are the one that's biased. You don't think he's worthy of number one so you look to knock his game. I'm actually leaning towards taking Robinson first overall. I like Manziel but he scares the hell out of me. If Wilson were in this draft and you wouldn't want him number one either. Bet you would have Manziel rated higher though.

This crap about Wilson being such a great prospect is just that, crap. He had plenty of good traits but wasn't deemed worthy of a first or even a second round pick by all 32 teams and was passed again in the third round by 9 of those teams again. Manziel WILL be a high first round pick most assuredly a top ten pick. And it's not because Wilson paved the way for him. It's because he's a better prospect than Wilson was period.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2565
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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Am I the only one that thinks Wilson is only a good QB on a great team who's got potential to get much better?

I'm with you on this.


Sent from the future...
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Old 02-25-2014   #2566
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Am I the only one that thinks Wilson is only a good QB on a great team who's got potential to get much better?
That's the way it starts. Brady, Manning, Young (Steve, not Vince), Favre... Roethlisberger. Playing on pretty good teams allowed them to be better than they would have been had they played for a bad team.

Colts... think if they never had Harrison, Faulk, Edge, Saturday.... and a lot of other players. They went from Harrison to Wayne, Faulk to James..... Peyton helped them look better for sure, but they helped Peyton out too.

The Patriots were a play off team before Brady got there.

Aikman looked like crap till they got Irvin & Smith (a bunch of other too for sure).
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Old 02-25-2014   #2567
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Wilson received around 50 Heisman votes iirc.



His last three seasons are a portrait in efficiency. Set the all time rating record in college then became one of if not the only QB to start their career with two 100+ rating seasons.
Uh huh and Manziel won the heisman as a redshirt freshman.

Uh huh against lesser competition than Manziel faced.

Link

Negatives:
Is short and height limits his field vision at times. Limited drop-back production. Inconsistent ball placement. Will vacate the pocket prematurely. Locks on to receivers. Has made some questionable decisions late in games (see East Carolina and Virginia Tech 2010, Michigan State 2011). Is under contract with the Colorado Rockies, and his commitment to football needs to be evaluated.

Summary:
An instinctive, multisport athlete with a terrific work ethic and likable personality, Wilson has nearly everything you desire intangibly, including toughness, competitiveness and leadership. Never will be a prototypical dropback, pocket passer, as his height always will be a limiting factor, but he has the arm, legs and smarts to grow into an effective backup in a system where he can utilize play-action, rollouts, and improv skills to make plays. Versatile player who could even be sprinkled into the game plan on a weekly basis to take advantage of his dual-threat ability. Is the type of player you root for and want on your roster.

Sounds a lot like a Manziel only not as highly rated.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2568
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Am I the only one that thinks Wilson is only a good QB on a great team who's got potential to get much better?
Nope.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2569
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Am I the only one that thinks Wilson is only a good QB on a great team who's got potential to get much better?
I happen to think Russell Wilson is the most overrated QB in the NFL right now.

It's not that he's not a good player, but he just isn't a risk taker during games. He's more prone to throw away the ball when he doesn't see anything open, or take off for the sidelines. That's what gets him such a great passer rating, but his QB rating doesn't tell the whole story. He's a great QB to have on a defense oriented team, because he won't lose games for you by turning the ball over, but he will leave a lot of points on the field by not getting the ball in the end zone. He's a good asset, but he's not a top 10 QB in the league, and I don't think he ever will be.

On the other side of the coin, JFF takes a lot of risks, with his arm and his legs. He's a gambler on the field, he loves to try to squeeze the ball into tight spaces, toss it up for his receivers, or take off and try to run for a long first down. Sometimes it works, and it makes for some great highlight reels, but sometimes it backfires and he ends up turning the ball over. That kind of playstyle will get you in trouble more often than not in the NFL, which is why I'm not too high on him this draft. I'm just a bit more conservative in what I want to see from a QB, and I don't think I would want to see JFF slinging it into double coverage on Sundays.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2570
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
You are the one that's biased. You don't think he's worthy of number one so you look to knock his game. I'm actually leaning towards taking Robinson first overall. I like Manziel but he scares the hell out of me. If Wilson were in this draft and you wouldn't want him number one either. Bet you would have Manziel rated higher though.

This crap about Wilson being such a great prospect is just that, crap. He had plenty of good traits but wasn't deemed worthy of a first or even a second round pick by all 32 teams and was passed again in the third round by 9 of those teams again. Manziel WILL be a high first round pick most assuredly a top ten pick. And it's not because Wilson paved the way for him. It's because he's a better prospect than Wilson was period.
One other thing you're not taking into account in why Wilson slid as far as he did is his departure in the middle of his college career to go play minor league baseball. Even though he came back to Wisconsin for 1 year after all that & had an outstanding season, scouts still weren't absolutely sure about his commitment to the game. No team would've spent a 1st or even 2nd on him without being absolutely sure he was committed to football.

his height by far though was the biggest hinderance in why he wasn't even looked at in the 1st or 2nd.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2571
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
You are the one that's biased. You don't think he's worthy of number one so you look to knock his game. I'm actually leaning towards taking Robinson first overall. I like Manziel but he scares the hell out of me. If Wilson were in this draft and you wouldn't want him number one either. Bet you would have Manziel rated higher though.

This crap about Wilson being such a great prospect is just that, crap. He had plenty of good traits but wasn't deemed worthy of a first or even a second round pick by all 32 teams and was passed again in the third round by 9 of those teams again. Manziel WILL be a high first round pick most assuredly a top ten pick. And it's not because Wilson paved the way for him. It's because he's a better prospect than Wilson was period.
I don't look to knock Manziel's game, the negatives are there in the game tape for everyone to see. I've commended him on his positives and pointed out his negatives. I see more negatives than positives as far as an NFL prospect.

You were the guy that posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Don't see teddy interviewing well.
Reporter- Teddy, what do you need to improve on?
Teddy - gets and dumbfounded look on face, then answers with a confused tone, "uh-nothing".

Yeh just not seeing it. Manziel on the other hand, well he's going to blow everyone away. He's got personality, confidence and swagger that sets him apart from any other top prospect in this draft.
Yeah, you aren't biased.

I loved Wilson when he was in college. I probably wouldn't have known enough to love his game if I weren't an ACC guy and had a chance to watch him play when there was little incentive to watch his team (NCState). Anyone could see that he, if he could overcome the height issue, was going to be an efficient passer.

Why aren't people all that concerned with Manziel's ability to overcome height, but were of Russell Wilson? Clearly, Wilson's success has had a very positive impact on Manziel's prospects. To not see that is strange.

I also don't get the whole "you wouldn't have wanted him at 1st overall" thing. Would anyone have taken him over Luck? I still wouldn't and I love Wilson. As far as this draft, I would definitely be interested in him over all the available QBs. Having said that, I saw him play at least a full season of games more than I have seen of Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel. So, naturally that opinion is going to be at least a little biased.

Anyway, explain to me why Manziel is a better prospect than Wilson? How is he a better passer than Wilson in his college days? I would love to hear that argument.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2572
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
That's the way it starts. Brady, Manning, Young (Steve, not Vince), Favre... Roethlisberger. Playing on pretty good teams allowed them to be better than they would have been had they played for a bad team.

Colts... think if they never had Harrison, Faulk, Edge, Saturday.... and a lot of other players. They went from Harrison to Wayne, Faulk to James..... Peyton helped them look better for sure, but they helped Peyton out too.

The Patriots were a play off team before Brady got there.

Aikman looked like crap till they got Irvin & Smith (a bunch of other too for sure).
You just echoed my feelings lately. That's why I'm leaning to Robinson at 1.1. Build this team up then find the QB. This team just isn't as talented as people think. Would kap or Wilson have been this successful had they been drafted this year for this team? I don't see it.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2573
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Default Re: Manziel

Quote:
Originally Posted by mussop View Post
Uh huh and Manziel won the heisman as a redshirt freshman.

Uh huh against lesser competition than Manziel faced.

Link

Negatives:
Is short and height limits his field vision at times. Limited drop-back production. Inconsistent ball placement. Will vacate the pocket prematurely. Locks on to receivers. Has made some questionable decisions late in games (see East Carolina and Virginia Tech 2010, Michigan State 2011). Is under contract with the Colorado Rockies, and his commitment to football needs to be evaluated.

Summary:
An instinctive, multisport athlete with a terrific work ethic and likable personality, Wilson has nearly everything you desire intangibly, including toughness, competitiveness and leadership. Never will be a prototypical dropback, pocket passer, as his height always will be a limiting factor, but he has the arm, legs and smarts to grow into an effective backup in a system where he can utilize play-action, rollouts, and improv skills to make plays. Versatile player who could even be sprinkled into the game plan on a weekly basis to take advantage of his dual-threat ability. Is the type of player you root for and want on your roster.

Sounds a lot like a Manziel only not as highly rated.
I think the baseball thing was also a big knock on Russell Wilson. If there was any question that he was going to the MLB instead of the NFL, then he immediately gets dropped off your board. There are only 7 rounds in the NFL, you gotta make your picks count, so prospects with dual-sport capability and the obvious interest in the other sport need to be scrutinized more. Clearly Wilson convinced an MLB team believe in his willingness to play baseball enough that they drafted him in the 4th round. That's a pretty high pick in a draft that lasts 50 rounds.

As a player, the MLB is much more lucrative due to the length of your career, and as a person it is much easier on your body. I think anyone with any concern for themselves and their family should choose the MLB and NBA over the NFL. It's really a no-brainer if you can compete at the top level of either sport. If I were a GM, I would be very concerned about fighting over a player who may go to the MLB, and I sure as hell wouldn't spend a 1st round pick unless I knew for certain he would choose my team over the Rockies.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2574
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
I don't look to knock Manziel's game, the negatives are there in the game tape for everyone to see. I've commended him on his positives and pointed out his negatives. I see more negatives than positives as far as an NFL prospect.

You were the guy that posted:



Yeah, you aren't biased.

I loved Wilson when he was in college. I probably wouldn't have known enough to love his game if I weren't an ACC guy and had a chance to watch him play when there was little incentive to watch his team (NCState). Anyone could see that he, if he could overcome the height issue, was going to be an efficient passer.

Why aren't people all that concerned with Manziel's ability to overcome height, but were of Russell Wilson? Clearly, Wilson's success has had a very positive impact on Manziel's prospects. To not see that is strange.

I also don't get the whole "you wouldn't have wanted him at 1st overall" thing. Would anyone have taken him over Luck? I still wouldn't and I love Wilson. As far as this draft, I would definitely be interested in him over all the available QBs. Having said that, I saw him play at least a full season of games more than I have seen of Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel. So, naturally that opinion is going to be at least a little biased.

Anyway, explain to me why Manziel is a better prospect than Wilson? How is he a better passer than Wilson in his college days? I would love to hear that argument.
If Wilson was coming out in THIS draft who would be the higher rated QB?
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Old 02-25-2014   #2575
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
If Wilson was coming out in THIS draft who would be the higher rated QB?
By who? Me? Wilson. By the guy you quoted in projecting Wilson as a potential career backup? Probably not Wilson.

By you? Manziel.

Btw, I will be interested to hear your explanation of how Manziel is a better prospect than Wilson.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2576
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
I think the baseball thing was also a big knock on Russell Wilson. If there was any question that he was going to the MLB instead of the NFL, then he immediately gets dropped off your board. There are only 7 rounds in the NFL, you gotta make your picks count, so prospects with dual-sport capability and the obvious interest in the other sport need to be scrutinized more. Clearly Wilson convinced an MLB team believe in his willingness to play baseball enough that they drafted him in the 4th round. That's a pretty high pick in a draft that lasts 50 rounds.

As a player, the MLB is much more lucrative due to the length of your career, and as a person it is much easier on your body. I think anyone with any concern for themselves and their family should choose the MLB and NBA over the NFL. It's really a no-brainer if you can compete at the top level of either sport. If I were a GM, I would be very concerned about fighting over a player who may go to the MLB, and I sure as hell wouldn't spend a 1st round pick unless I knew for certain he would choose my team over the Rockies.
I totally agree with all of this. However even without the baseball and height questions he would not be considered in the same class as Manziel as a prospect. JMO.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2577
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Default Re: Manziel

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If Wilson was coming out in THIS draft who would be the higher rated QB?
Wilson...i was high on him back then...not 1:1 overall high, but i liked him more than most...certainly liked him better than i like Manziel now.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2578
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
By who? Me? Wilson. By the guy you quoted in projecting Wilson as a potential career backup? Probably not Wilson.

By you? Manziel.

Btw, I will be interested to hear your explanation of how Manziel is a better prospect than Wilson.
What's to explain? At no point in Wilson's draft process was he ever rated as highly as Manziel. Higher rating = better prospect.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2579
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Default Re: Manziel

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Wilson...i was high on him back then...not 1:1 overall high, but i liked him more than most...certainly liked him better than i like Manziel now.
I'm sorry but I'm calling B.S. On this. You're telling me if he were In this draft he would be rated higher than Manziel?
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Old 02-25-2014   #2580
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
I totally agree with all of this. However even without the baseball and height questions he would not be considered in the same class as Manziel as a prospect. JMO.
If Manziel was coming out in the Luck, RG3 draft he wouldn't be in the same class as them and at best a 2nd rounder...it's all relative man.
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