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Old 02-25-2014   #2541
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
I totally agree with all of this. However even without the baseball and height questions he would not be considered in the same class as Manziel as a prospect. JMO.
If Manziel was coming out in the Luck, RG3 draft he wouldn't be in the same class as them and at best a 2nd rounder...it's all relative man.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2542
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
I'm sorry but I'm calling B.S. On this. You're telling me if he were In this draft he would be rated higher than Manziel?
He probably wouldn't have been rated higher due to the hype around Manziel & the SEC, but anyone who paid attention to each prospect & not got caught up in the hype would've had him rated higher than Manziel.

Simply put, everything Manziel is good at, Wilson is as good at or better. Wilson was just as fast & quick, tremendously bigger hands than manziel... stronger arm than Manziel...he was a better pocket passer in college than Manziel & put up tremendous stats in a top notch conference...like Manziel.

but my response was more geared towards the question you posed to Texan Seminole. I read it as which would you have rated higher....read it wrong...my fault.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2543
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
By who? Me? Wilson. By the guy you quoted in projecting Wilson as a potential career backup? Probably not Wilson.

By you? Manziel.

Btw, I will be interested to hear your explanation of how Manziel is a better prospect than Wilson.
He certainly has a higher potential ceiling than Wilson. Everything Dutchrudder said about Wilson is true. Overrated. He's not exactly Trent Dilfer, but he is a not risky QB who will make mistakes for your team. And on a run and defense oriented team that's absolutely fine. We saw them ride that to a ring this year. Can't argue with Super Bowls.

Manziel is a playmaker, no question about it. He is however a massive risk taker. The question is, can he translate that playmaking ability into the NFL without committing turnovers all the time? If he can, championship. If he can't, bust. All it takes is one team to think the boom factor is worth the bust risk and take him in the top ten.

At this point Cleveland is looking for a miracle and a savior, so I can't think of a more fitting pick than Manziel.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2544
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
If Wilson was coming out in THIS draft who would be the higher rated QB?
If Wilson was in this class I would rate the top four like this: Bridgewater, Wilson, Bortles, Manziel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mussop View Post
I totally agree with all of this. However even without the baseball and height questions he would not be considered in the same class as Manziel as a prospect. JMO.
Why?

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
What's to explain? At no point in Wilson's draft process was he ever rated as highly as Manziel. Higher rating = better prospect.
I had Wilson rated as a 1st rounder and I'd have him rated higher this year. The only questions about Wilson were height, frame, and dedication to football.

His height wasn't an issue to me. Obviously I wouldn't mind if he had been taller but his height didn't affect his game. His line at Wisconsin was the tallest in the country and he still found passing lanes better than anyone else in the country. OL are so big and tall now that pretty much only a handful of QBs in the league can see over the tops of their heads. Everybody has to find the lane.

His frame was a legitimate question mark. Could he hold up against injury? This was pretty much the only knock I had on him.

His dedication to football wasn't an issue to me. He always showed up exactly when he said he was going to and outworked everybody. After his final season of baseball he said he was giving it up and focusing on football. I believed him so I struck this off the list.

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
I'm sorry but I'm calling B.S. On this. You're telling me if he were In this draft he would be rated higher than Manziel?
Yes, by me. Not by people who use ESPN to rank prospects.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2545
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
If Manziel was coming out in the Luck, RG3 draft he wouldn't be in the same class as them and at best a 2nd rounder...it's all relative man.
What are you talking about? This whole debate is over who is the better prospect / college player / QB. The question I posed was if Wilson were In this draft who would go higher?
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Old 02-25-2014   #2546
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by htownfan32 View Post
He certainly has a higher potential ceiling than Wilson. Everything Dutchrudder said about Wilson is true. Overrated. He's not exactly Trent Dilfer, but he is a not risky QB who will make mistakes for your team. And on a run and defense oriented team that's absolutely fine. We saw them ride that to a ring this year. Can't argue with Super Bowls.

Manziel is a playmaker, no question about it. He is however a massive risk taker. The question is, can he translate that playmaking ability into the NFL without committing turnovers all the time? If he can, championship. If he can't, bust. All it takes is one team to think the boom factor is worth the bust risk and take him in the top ten.

At this point Cleveland is looking for a miracle and a savior, so I can't think of a more fitting pick than Manziel.
Saying that someone that is more risky with the ball automatically has a higher ceiling makes zero sense to me.

That's like saying, "hey that dude that is throwing all those picks, he's a risky high ceiling kid." Not saying that Manziel throws a high number of picks, just putting this thought process into perspective.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2547
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
What are you talking about? This whole debate is over who is the better prospect / college player / QB. The question I posed was if Wilson were In this draft who would go higher?
Those two are not necessarily the same thing, which is where you seem to be getting lost in the argument.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2548
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by mussop View Post
What are you talking about? This whole debate is over who is the better prospect / college player / QB. The question I posed was if Wilson were In this draft who would go higher?
Lol, You keep throwing out this hypothetical about if Wilson was in this draft who would be rated higher...I simply threw a hypothetical right back at you...which was had Manziel come out in the same draft as Luck & RG3 he would've been an after thought secondary to those 2....he likely would've been regarded much less compared against those 2....regarded much less compared to what he is now & would've had next to no chance of going 1:2 overall much less in consideration for 1:1 like he is now.

Again, it's all relative to what scouts have to choose from.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2549
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
If Wilson was in this class I would rate the top four like this: Bridgewater, Wilson, Bortles, Manziel.
How would you rank the 2012 class if Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel were in that draft?

Luck
Griffin
Tannehill
Weeden
Osweiller
Wilson
Foles
Cousins
Lindley
Coleman

Not really rated, but the top 10 drafted.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2550
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Default Re: Manziel

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
How would you rank the 2012 class if Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel were in that draft?

Luck
Griffin
Tannehill
Weeden
Osweiller
Wilson
Foles
Cousins
Lindley
Coleman

Not really rated, but the top 10 drafted.
Luck
Griffin
Tannehill / Bridgewater
Wilson
Weeden / Bortles
Foles
Osweiller
Manziel
Cousins
Lindley
Coleman
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Old 02-25-2014   #2551
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
Saying that someone that is more risky with the ball automatically has a higher ceiling makes zero sense to me.

That's like saying, "hey that dude that is throwing all those picks, he's a risky high ceiling kid." Not saying that Manziel throws a high number of picks, just putting this thought process into perspective.
That's not following the logic of my argument. I'm saying that because Manziel is a playmaker with the ball he has a higher ceiling than Wilson. He also has a very high bust factor, thanks to his risky style of play. Not the other way around, with Manziel being risky = high ceiling.

Risk = bust factor.
Playmaking ability = ceiling.

Small distinction I know, but one that has to be made in Manziel's case.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2552
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by htownfan32 View Post
That's not following the logic of my argument. I'm saying that because Manziel is a playmaker with the ball he has a higher ceiling than Wilson. He also has a very high bust factor, thanks to his risky style of play. Not the other way around, with Manziel being risky = high ceiling.

Risk = bust factor.
Playmaking ability = ceiling.

Small distinction I know, but one that has to be made in Manziel's case.
Outside of his running ability, which we have no figured out is at a lower speed than Wilson, what playmaking abilities does Manziel have that Wilson did not exhibit in college?
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Old 02-25-2014   #2553
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Default Re: Manziel

Quote:
Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
How would you rank the 2012 class if Bridgewater, Bortles, & Manziel were in that draft?

Luck
Griffin
Tannehill
Weeden
Osweiller
Wilson
Foles
Cousins
Lindley
Coleman

Not really rated, but the top 10 drafted.
I had them rated this way:

Andrew Luck - #1
Robert Griffin - Top 3
Russell Wilson - 1st Round
Ryan Tannehill – 2nd Round
Nick Foles - 3rd Round
Brock Osweiler - 4th Round
Brandon Weeden – 4th Round
Kirk Cousins - 5th Round
Ryan Lindley - 6th Round
B.J. Coleman - UDFA
--------------------

I slide the top three from this class in here:

Andrew Luck
Robert Griffin
Teddy Bridgewater
Russell Wilson
Blake Bortles
Johnny Manziel
Ryan Tannehill
Nick Foles
Brock Osweiler
Brandon Weeden
Kirk Cousins
Ryan Lindley
B.J. Coleman
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Old 02-25-2014   #2554
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
Outside of his running ability, which we have no figured out is at a lower speed than Wilson, what playmaking abilities does Manziel have that Wilson did not exhibit in college?
Duke game, Auburn game, and Alabama game. Can you point out three comparable games from Wilson? I'll do my homework and get back to you after last class of the day.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2555
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by htownfan32 View Post
Duke game, Auburn game, and Alabama game. Can you point out three comparable games from Wilson? I'll do my homework and get back to you after last class of the day.
Quick research yields:

2009 terrible team outside of Wilson

NC State vs Florida State

Wilson: 20/30 349 Yards 5 TDs 2 INTs

8 carries 34 yards

NC State vs North Carolina

Wilson: 20/27 259 Yds 4 TDs 0 INTs

Both FSU and NC were ranked teams.


2011 at Wisconson

Pretty much any game.

Big Ten Championship game against Michigan State

Wilson: 17/24 187 Yards 3 TD 0 INTs

Would you consider that comparable?
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Old 02-25-2014   #2556
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Default Re: Manziel

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexansSeminole View Post
Quick research yields:

2009 terrible team outside of Wilson

NC State vs Florida STate

Wilson: 20/30 349 Yards 5 TDs 2 INTs

8 carries 34 yards

NC State vs North Carolina

Both were ranked teams.

Wilson: 20/27 259 Yds 4 TDs 0 INTs

2011 at Wisconson

Pretty much any game.

Big Ten Championship game against Michigan State

Wilson: 17/24 187 Yards 3 TD 0 INTs

Would you consider that comparable?
Fair enough. Will do research and get back to you. Open to changing my mind on this, because Manziel is certainly not a certain thing.

Also, as far as the aforementioned 40 yard dash time goes... Manziel had faster 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle times. Interpret that how you will.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2557
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Am I the only one that thinks Wilson is only a good QB on a great team who's got potential to get much better?
I'm not sure the Seahawk offense would get past the first playoff game without that Defense.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2558
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Default Re: Manziel

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I'm not sure the Seahawk offense would get past the first playoff game without that Defense.
Agreed. Seahawk offense would have also failed in Houston were it not for Richard Sherman and the Seahawk defense.
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Old 02-25-2014   #2559
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by htownfan32 View Post
Fair enough. Will do research and get back to you. Open to changing my mind on this, because Manziel is certainly not a certain thing.

Also, as far as the aforementioned 40 yard dash time goes... Manziel had faster 3 cone and 20 yard shuttle times. Interpret that how you will.
I think that Manziel has better running ability, but you also wonder if that style will continue in the NFL. He's not all that fast and unless he's shifty enough to avoid big hits, like Wilson, it will be a detriment to his game. I expect him to be able to evade people, but overall don't see his running prowess overall translating.

When looking at Wilson's stats, look at the difference between when he was on a crappy team (NC State) and when he was put on a better team with much better coaching (Wisconson).
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Old 02-25-2014   #2560
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
If Wilson was in this class I would rate the top four like this: Bridgewater, Wilson, Bortles, Manziel.



Why?



I had Wilson rated as a 1st rounder and I'd have him rated higher this year. The only questions about Wilson were height, frame, and dedication to football.

His height wasn't an issue to me. Obviously I wouldn't mind if he had been taller but his height didn't affect his game. His line at Wisconsin was the tallest in the country and he still found passing lanes better than anyone else in the country. OL are so big and tall now that pretty much only a handful of QBs in the league can see over the tops of their heads. Everybody has to find the lane.

His frame was a legitimate question mark. Could he hold up against injury? This was pretty much the only knock I had on him.

His dedication to football wasn't an issue to me. He always showed up exactly when he said he was going to and outworked everybody. After his final season of baseball he said he was giving it up and focusing on football. I believed him so I struck this off the list.



Yes, by me. Not by people who use ESPN to rank prospects.

I challenge anyone to provide a link from Wilson's draft year proving that they had Wilson rated as a high first round pick.

Also don't see why you would presume I use ESPN to rank prospects. I have been here for years doing this and have always gone against the media hype machine. In fact I really like Wilson a lot as a developmental QB. Which is what most of the better draftniks here did. Do not remember anyone claiming he was a high first round pick under any condition.
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