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Old 02-23-2014   #2461
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
If you contain him in the pocket and play decent man coverage he can't throw his guys open consistently...
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Old 02-23-2014   #2462
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Lord Bills View Post
4.63 and 4.56.

Very good numbers. He's in the kapernick wilson range which means his speed and athleticism are real and he can out run NFL defenses.

Looking at game film vs the best competition college football had to offer should have been enough for people but i digress....

I hope bob mcnair pulls rank on obrien and personally orders the selection of manziel. This franchise needs to be saved from cocky know it all GMs and head coaches.

Don't worry LB, although it will never come out Manziel will be the pick courtesy of Uncle BoB. Gotta keep those Ags spending that $$$$$.
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Old 02-23-2014   #2463
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Old 02-23-2014   #2464
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Default Re: Manziel

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Guys like Al Davis and Jerry Jones were great for their respective franchises at the beginning. But then the game moved passed them and they had too much ego to bring in people smarter than they were to come in and make decisions.

There is nothing wrong with an owner who wants to be involved. But they have to understand where the line is. If you hire a guy to make decisions you can't step on his toes. There's a difference between blind trust and hiring people who you believe are up to the job and letting them make decisions. If they make bad decisions then you replace them.

I'm sure Kraft makes his opinions known. But do you think he overrules the people that he has hired to make those calls if they disagree?
There were vmoves that could've been made that I'm sure BoB nixed during the Kubiak era. Like maybe signing Manning or drafting Burfict/Rodgers type players.

BoB is the kind of manager that is very hard to deal with. He says you've got full control but you try to draft a player like Lyerla late in this yrs draft and BoB will shoot it down in a heartbeat.
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Old 02-23-2014   #2465
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Default Re: Manziel

I don't think there was a question as to whether Johnny could outrun guys on the first and second level. The real question is how many times can he run it and still be able to answer the bell. I don't think anyone thinks Manziel can play like he did in college and expect to stay upright. How much does he have to dial it back to stay healthy and how much will that change his in pocket effectiveness.
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Old 02-23-2014   #2466
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by jradMIT View Post
I don't think there was a question as to whether Johnny could outrun guys on the first and second level. The real question is how many times can he run it and still be able to answer the bell. I don't think anyone thinks Manziel can play like he did in college and expect to stay upright. How much does he have to dial it back to stay healthy and how much will that change his in pocket effectiveness.
No one, including Johnny, expects him to play the same game as he did in college. Part of his workout regime is to adapt to playing under center, his footwork on 3, 5 and 7 step drops and his technique for throwing from a pocket. By all reports he pretty much has dedicated himself to becoming an effective NFL QB. Any organization who drafts Manziel would be smart to mold their offense around him and not force him into something he is not. One player who he is being compared to is Fran Tarkington, for those of you old enough to know of this Viking great.
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Old 02-23-2014   #2467
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by jradMIT View Post
I don't think there was a question as to whether Johnny could outrun guys on the first and second level. The real question is how many times can he run it and still be able to answer the bell. I don't think anyone thinks Manziel can play like he did in college and expect to stay upright. How much does he have to dial it back to stay healthy and how much will that change his in pocket effectiveness.
I worry about the opposite. Not particularly concerned about downfield. He's fast enough to still make some of those plays. QBs get giant tracts of field to play with. As long as he isn't stupid he'll learn to slide. What concerns me is his poor pocket presence resulting in him getting obliterated.
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Old 02-23-2014   #2468
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Number19 View Post
No one, including Johnny, expects him to play the same game as he did in college. Part of his workout regime is to adapt to playing under center, his footwork on 3, 5 and 7 step drops and his technique for throwing from a pocket. By all reports he pretty much has dedicated himself to becoming an effective NFL QB. Any organization who drafts Manziel would be smart to mold their offense around him and not force him into something he is not. One player who he is being compared to is Fran Tarkington, for those of you old enough to know of this Viking great.
Yeah I have heard the Tarkington comparison, but I wonder how much it applies when Fran played in a time when the largest defensive players were like 260. He's gonna have to slide, run out of bounds, throw the ball away etc much more. Its a question as to how much of that makes him who he is. You still want Johnny Football, but you want Johnny Football to hold up. A good question is what is the over/under number of games he starts on average for the first 8 years of his career?
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Old 02-24-2014   #2469
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by jradMIT View Post
Yeah I have heard the Tarkington comparison, but I wonder how much it applies when Fran played in a time when the largest defensive players were like 260. He's gonna have to slide, run out of bounds, throw the ball away etc much more. Its a question as to how much of that makes him who he is. You still want Johnny Football, but you want Johnny Football to hold up. A good question is what is the over/under number of games he starts on average for the first 8 years of his career?
No, I don't want Johnny Football, I want Johnny Manziel.
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Old 02-24-2014   #2470
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Lord Bills View Post
4.63 and 4.56.

Very good numbers. He's in the kapernick wilson range which means his speed and athleticism are real and he can out run NFL defenses.

Looking at game film vs the best competition college football had to offer should have been enough for people but i digress....

I hope bob mcnair pulls rank on obrien and personally orders the selection of manziel. This franchise needs to be saved from cocky know it all GMs and head coaches.
There is a diplomatic way of doing this without creating the dissension we've seen elsewhere. He just has to inject his desire in the discussion while coordinating the choice of the pick. This lets OB and RS retain the Man in Charge image. Neither are in a position to throw a hissy fit. Anyway, we're not talking about taking a second tier QB in Manzeil.

That said, I still think we could get him with the 4th pick and I'd love the extra picks from trading down.
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Old 02-24-2014   #2471
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Goldensilence View Post
I don't know about common knowledge, but I actually share fairly similar speculation.

I think McNair looks towards the Rooney's as far as a model for a consistent blueprint for running a franchise, which means keeping an even level on things. For the most part I applaud this. However, I think McNair overly trusted Kubiak and I think he let Kubiak make the lion's share of decisions on personnel.

Let me state upfront: I don't think Gary Kubiak is a bad guy or necessarily a bad coach. I think the most consistent problem under Gary was identifying and developing talent. He seemed to gravitate to players much like himself as a player, not the most physically gifted but tried to make up for it in their approach to the game. He also liked to try to take long shot on some guys in fairly high spots; Molden as well as Okoye.

My other problem is that Gary did not seem to want people around he did not feel comfortable with or went out of his circle of what he knew. This lead to some really poor decisions on the staff in general. I think you can get away with this when you have a stronger GM who calls the shots in personnel and says: "I know what you're looking for in players, while I am not going to make the calls exclusively, at the end of the day this is what you've got to work with."

I am still not 100% sure that Rick Smith was allowed the ability to work anywhere near independent of Gary's decisions except maybe the last two years when it seemed the draft process (at least in my view) steered away from Gary making the calls. I am guessing this is why he likely still has a job.

I am relieved if nothing else some of the most questionable parts of the personnel side have been replaced, I still think there could be a few more specially if Rick Smith is shown the door next year if this team doesn't perform well.
I really don't get the Rick Smith hate around here. He's a functionary and good at it. Perhaps it is because so few people appreciate the details of his job and simply think of him as a target of convenience for anything they do not like about the recent struggles of the Texans.
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Old 02-24-2014   #2472
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Default Re: Manziel

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Originally Posted by Number19 View Post
No one, including Johnny, expects him to play the same game as he did in college. Part of his workout regime is to adapt to playing under center, his footwork on 3, 5 and 7 step drops and his technique for throwing from a pocket. By all reports he pretty much has dedicated himself to becoming an effective NFL QB. Any organization who drafts Manziel would be smart to mold their offense around him and not force him into something he is not. One player who he is being compared to is Fran Tarkington, for those of you old enough to know of this Viking great.
I'd take another Fran Tarkington or Archie Manning (another comparison) in a heartbeat.
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Old 02-24-2014   #2473
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Default Re: Manziel

Fran wouldn't make it in todays nfl. All those ad lib plays behind los would get him injured and cut. Every play can't be off schedule either. Not to mention,he had some great players like forman,rashad,and the purple people eaters on defense. Not saying JF can't play or won't have success, I just think the way he plays, wil doom him.
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Old 02-24-2014   #2474
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Default Re: Manziel

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Fran wouldn't make it in todays nfl. All those ad lib plays behind los would get him injured and cut. Every play can't be off schedule either. Not to mention,he had some great players like forman,rashad,and the purple people eaters on defense. Not saying JF can't play or won't have success, I just think the way he plays, wil doom him.
They told him he wouldn't last then too. But he did.
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Old 02-24-2014   #2475
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Default Re: Manziel

His scrambling doesn't worry me as much as him not being a good qb in the pocket. Sitting there going through multiple reads seems like a tall task for him.

He's going to need a lot of coaching up.

Last edited by _King_; 02-24-2014 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 02-24-2014   #2476
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Default Re: Manziel

Yo kiddos, his name is Fran TARKENTON not Tarkington.
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Old 02-24-2014   #2477
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Default Re: Manziel

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His scrambling doesn't worry me as much as him not being a good qb in the pocket. Sitting there going through multiple reads seems like a tall task for him.

He's going to need a lot of coaching up.
Unless Whitfield is lying, Manziel is pretty damn accurate from the pocket. Link
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“He was better this year than last year.” Whitfield told me. “Leading college football in accuracy from the pocket, top three in accuracy when the ball travels beyond 15 yards. You really can’t have that kind of success from the pocket or downfield if you’re not breaking down defenses and making reads.”
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Old 02-24-2014   #2478
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Default Re: Manziel

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Yo kiddos, his name is Fran TARKENTON not Tarkington.
You're correct.
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Old 02-24-2014   #2479
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Default Re: Manziel

Manziel vs Clowney in the 40 yard dash:



You take Clowney
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Old 02-24-2014   #2480
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Default Re: Manziel

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Manziel vs Clowney in the 40 yard dash:

You take Clowney
Are we going to have a side by side of them both throwing the football?
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