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Old 02-13-2014   #81
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by bah007 View Post
I have no problem with his work. But his attitude is annoying...
Kiper is a reporter who talks/writes as if he's a scout... with great hair.

Can't wait for him & McShay to go at it again
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Old 02-13-2014   #82
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I don't know why people keep laying this criticism at his feet every year. His model and yours are not the same and in his swings do make sense. He unabashedly moves people based on "what I am hearing." That isn't something you can say because people inside teams and scouting agencies aren't talking to you on the side.

I am not defending the accuracy of his big board. Just commenting that he and say Mike Mayock don't claim to do the same thing and shouldn't be expected to do the same thing.
I hear what you're saying and that's fine that he does that. Most are aware and that's clear. That's not my issue.

My issue is saying "This is my big board".

No, it's not. You can't have swings like that in 7 days. These 2 boards might as well have come from 2 different sides of the world. At least McShay's board you can tell that it was 'his' board last week and is just getting a work over.

Does he talk to 4 teams one week, then the next week talk to 4 different teams and completely override and forget what the original 4 teams said the previous week?

What is that? What if he talks to 4 different different teams next week and it's completely different again? (4 teams is a random example I am making up, no truth to it)

If his final product is solid, that's fine, I just won't follow his process as detailed in the future.
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Old 02-13-2014   #83
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by TexansFTW View Post
My issue is saying "This is my big board".

No, it's not. You can't have swings like that in 7 days.
Maybe it was a correction.... Looks more inline with what he had before, with some movement. But yeah, taking Manziel from 11 to 1 then back to 11... eh...


He was most likely watching a Manziel highlight reel just before the 2/6 "big board" then he's come back to earth since.
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Old 02-13-2014   #84
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

[quote=Playoffs;2298815]Or scouts with the scouting services, more likely. Any "team" that says anything to Kiper at this time of year is gaming the draft.

McShay:
Quote:
10Teddy Bridgewater*
COLLEGE: LouisvilleAGE: 20HT: 6-2WT: 198POS: QB
Kiper
Quote:
9Teddy Bridgewater *AGE: 21DOB: 11/10/92HT: 6-3WT: 218POS: QB
Dayum, TB's gained twenty pounds since McShay's mock I just read 2 minutes!

Edit: And grew an inch plus he's a year older! Gotta draft that kid. He does things NO ONE else can do!

TK should be feeling good about him now.
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Old 02-13-2014   #85
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by drs23 View Post
Dayum, TB's gained twenty pounds since McShay's mock I just read 2 minutes!

TK should be feeling good about him now.
I'm waiting for the combine numbers.
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Old 02-14-2014   #86
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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I'm waiting for the combine numbers.
This is my position across the board.

I'm trying very hard not to fall in love with any players before I see a few estimates and guesses either confirmed or denied.
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Old 02-14-2014   #87
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

IMO you should already have your decision formed before the combine, then the combine has the ability to either reinforce your decision or off put you so much that you are forced to move onto #2 option.

It should never be anything as drastic as you might see from Mel Kiper's 7 day swings in 'his' big board.
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Old 02-14-2014   #88
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by TexansFTW View Post
IMO you should already have your decision formed before the combine, then the combine has the ability to either reinforce your decision or off put you so much that you are forced to move onto #2 option.
Agreed. The combine should be about identifying abnormalities is the already made evaluation of the players based on tape - spotting where for some reason their combine performance doesn't match their on field performance.
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Old 02-14-2014   #89
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

Regarding the Combine, some performances can be difference makers:

For RBs and CBs, 10 & 40 times, shuttle times and vertical leap can move players up and down the draft board.

For LB, DL & OL, 10 yd times and 225 reps can make a difference.

Examples: a 4.2 40 can move an RB to RD1. A 4.3 40 can move CBs up a RD or two and a 40" vertical can do the same.

A sub 1.50 10 yd split can move DE, OLBs in to RD 1 and RBs up in the draft.

OG, OT & DT who lift 225 < 25 times could drop noticeably but 225 > 30 times could enhance their draft position.

Broad Jump measures explosion and those with great performance could move up.

Combine performances do make a difference, for everyone? No. For a few, absolutely. The #1 priority of the Combine is medicals, #2 is interviews and #3 is measurables and performance.
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Old 02-14-2014   #90
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

I think you have a ranking already formed, but things you see at pro days and the combine plus the interviews, can move a guy up or down if you have them ranked close. A good interview and some better than expected combine numbers still should be able to make the difference.
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Old 02-14-2014   #91
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Regarding the Combine, some performances can be difference makers:
Nobody said anything different.

Quote:
Examples: a 4.2 40 can move an RB to RD1.
Based on a sample size of 1, maybe.
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Old 02-14-2014   #92
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Nobody said anything different.


and I never said anyone did, but if the shoe fits...
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Old 02-14-2014   #93
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
sample size of 2, Chris Johnson and Tavon Austin.
Tavon Austin was not drafted as a RB.

But you missed the point. You made a whole slew of "can" statements which is a far cry from routinely or commonly. Fact is off of game tape most clubs know about where someone is going to run. It is only when they run exceptionally different than anticipated that it makes significant changes in draft order.
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Old 02-14-2014   #94
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
Tavon Austin was not drafted as a RB.

But you missed the point. You made a whole slew of "can" statements which is a far cry from routinely or commonly. Fact is off of game tape most clubs know about where someone is going to run. It is only when they run exceptionally different than anticipated that it makes significant changes in draft order.
I missed no point, that was your interpretation not mine. Therefore you would be the one who missed the point. Fact is my whole slew of statements are true regardless of how you want to interpret them. The other side of the coin, and you are also welcome to interpret them as you so desire, which won't necessarily make it correct, poor times, jumps or combine performances can also drop players in the draft. Game tape is not always THE ABSOLUTE as you want to suggest. The FACT and reality is the Combine in some cases MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR BETTER OR WORSE!
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Old 02-14-2014   #95
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Game tape is not always THE ABSOLUTE as you want to suggest.
I suggested no such thing.

Quote:
The FACT and reality is the Combine in some cases MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR BETTER OR WORSE!
Finally, you get it.
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Old 02-14-2014   #96
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I suggested no such thing.



Finally, you get it.
You often are articulate and bring much to the discussion. On other occasions your propensity to want to argue for the sake of arguing makes your babble the equivalent of a bag of hot air. This is one of those other occasions.
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Old 02-14-2014   #97
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

If Bridgewater is 6'3" (which I don't doubt) 218lbs (which I don't believe he'll weigh) he'll move ahead of Manziel on my board.
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Old 02-14-2014   #98
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
If Bridgewater is 6'3" (which I don't doubt) 218lbs (which I don't believe he'll weigh) he'll move ahead of Manziel on my board.
Why? What's the weight line in the sand? >209 and he's better than Manziel, but 208 or less and he's worse?
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Old 02-15-2014   #99
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by Playoffs View Post
Why? What's the weight line in the sand? >209 and he's better than Manziel, but 208 or less and he's worse?
I'm still old school I guess. I look at it from the stand point of durability. He was thin all year, I think he's a natural hard gainer & while he might get his weight up to 210 for the combine, he'll eventually settle back to his norm of 205 or less.

Manziel is short, 6'1" if he's lucky, but that same 205 looks better on him. More durable.

I know QBs get hurt all the time; big & small. I still think the smaller ones are more apt... I don't know that there is any data to prove it, I actually doubt it. But it makes sense. You don't send a boy to do a man's job.

You, & every Texans' fan know all too well what it's like to cross your fingers & hope your QB can play 16+ games a season, or if he gets hurt, that he can come back at the right time & finish. & we had a relatively "big" guy.

There are & there will be questions about his talent & his ability to lead. Don't need questions about his ability to stay on the field.
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Old 02-15-2014   #100
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Default Re: Kiper 2014

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I'm still old school I guess. I look at it from the stand point of durability. He was thin all year, I think he's a natural hard gainer & while he might get his weight up to 210 for the combine, he'll eventually settle back to his norm of 205 or less.

Manziel is short, 6'1" if he's lucky, but that same 205 looks better on him. More durable...
So if Teddy weighs 205 and Manziel weighs 205, Manziel will be higher on your board?

What if Teddy is 6'1" and Manziel is just under 6'? Does Teddy go back ahead or is Manziel still better than Teddy because they both weigh 205?
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