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Old 01-25-2014   #41
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Originally Posted by leebigeztx View Post
So steelbluetexan wanted patterson end of 1st, then give up 3 oher picks for bray? Lol
Trading down has nothing to do with giving up picks. Please try to stay on point.

However I would've traded up for Bray. I think he's that good.
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Old 01-25-2014   #42
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Bray would be my #1 QB in this draft.



A little unrelated.... just to throw this out there concerning "size"

I would have an issue drafting Teddy Bridgewater at Tyler Bray's size

6'6" 215lbs..... lanky, probably won't be able to take a lot of hits at the NFL level. At 6'6" he should be in the 230-240 range.
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Old 01-25-2014   #43
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

Your infatuation with size is really weird.
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Old 01-25-2014   #44
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Your infatuation with size is really weird.
Well it's one of the things a player is graded on until we fall in love with him & want him at all costs with the #1 overall.
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Old 01-25-2014   #45
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Well it's one of the things a player is graded on until we fall in love with him & want him at all costs with the #1 overall.
You are correct that it is ONE thing a prospect is graded on. But it is not the most important (to most, at least), and nor should 10-15 pounds (I can't remember your exact numbers) be the difference between you being upset with the pick or ecstatic with the pick.
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Old 01-25-2014   #46
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
Your infatuation with size is really weird.
Not uncommon even among NFL scouts/teams -- every year you see teams draft height/weight/speed where other teams don't have same guy on their board because of his tape/Senior Bowl practices/or the like. So he's not alone, but agree it can be hazardous to your wealth.
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Old 01-25-2014   #47
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

In general teams have assigned their own specific measreables to each position, then evaluate how well they carry/move that weight/size/strength/speed. AT some point durability enters equation along with associated risks, so they must sign off if borderline size prospect is worth that risk for investment. Ideally high risk high reward checks off all the boxes except those you can't measure like passion for the game, heart, football intelligence (sorry wonderlic) intangibles.

Let's just use Manziel for example. Less than ideal size, but he can carry his weight w/elite mobility range. So his draft stock is based on the more difficult & elusive measurements, intangibles. Johnny possess rare leadership ability with swag (will turn off some teams/fans) Innate instincts to process time & space (pocket presence) elite, however how much does height/size play in his ability to make progressions while in the pocket, hence his propensity to escape & throw on the run. A team can succeed with Manziel using a system tailor made to utilize his strengths, not specific but somewhat based off initial prospect measureables.
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Old 01-25-2014   #48
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Originally Posted by rmartin65 View Post
You are correct that it is ONE thing a prospect is graded on. But it is not the most important (to most, at least), and nor should 10-15 pounds (I can't remember your exact numbers) be the difference between you being upset with the pick or ecstatic with the pick.
I see.

Supposedly he played at 205 this past season. I don't think he was even 200lbs. Supposedly he lost weight when he had his jaw wired over the previous summer. I understand he was playing football & working out, but I don't think (& it's just me) that he would have had trouble gaining it back if his natural weight was in fact 205, 210.

So now he knows weight is an issue, he should be working really hard to get his weight up. If he's working his butt off & weighs in at 210lbs at the combine... well, his natural body weight is still below 210 & he'll probably mature into a 210, 215 lb frame.

If he weighs in at 215, then that means the "lost weight story" & "hard to gain weight while playing football" stories are more believable. He's probably closer to his natural weight & 6'3" 215 is a decent weight for a QB. Contrary to popular belief, these little guys don't put on much weight with an NFL S&C program.
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Old 01-25-2014   #49
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Originally Posted by steelbtexan View Post
Yep

Patterson is beeter than Hopkins. IMHO

Bray would be my #1 QB in this draft. The guy has all of the ability in the world. Do you find it curious that Bray played better than Daniels (Even though Daniels was paid 2 mil in FA.) and appeared to have beaten out Daniels for QB2.

So far I stand by my eval. I don't care that Bray went UDFA. If he had signed with the Texans the Texans wouldn't be looking at drafting a QB or picking 1-1. IMHO

Carry on with your TB lovefest.
You don't go from #1 qb drafted to unfa in a yr. For the record, I liked bray as a 3rd rd guy last yr. From what my friends said,who are scouts is that he's football dumb and immature. For the most part,he had 2 1st rd wrs and was still very inconsistent.

Its ok to be wrong,we all are. Hell I thought the texans should've drafted geno smith. Geno was more cold than hot and now he's in a fight for his football life. I may be proven right or very wrong in the near future,but I'm not stubborn enough to try to convince myself I'm right.

Btw, this thread proves a lot in terms of qb eval. You keep saying wait till next yr,just like people kept saying wait till next yr. I'm going to say right now, next yr there will be 2 qbs with a high 1st rd grade and only 1 of which, winston, who will have a grade higher than bridgewater. Petty,hogan,mariotta will not once the scouts get into them. See David Fales,Matt Barkley,Landry Jones.
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Old 01-25-2014   #50
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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I see.

Supposedly he played at 205 this past season. I don't think he was even 200lbs. Supposedly he lost weight when he had his jaw wired over the previous summer. I understand he was playing football & working out, but I don't think (& it's just me) that he would have had trouble gaining it back if his natural weight was in fact 205, 210.

So now he knows weight is an issue, he should be working really hard to get his weight up. If he's working his butt off & weighs in at 210lbs at the combine... well, his natural body weight is still below 210 & he'll probably mature into a 210, 215 lb frame.

If he weighs in at 215, then that means the "lost weight story" & "hard to gain weight while playing football" stories are more believable. He's probably closer to his natural weight & 6'3" 215 is a decent weight for a QB. Contrary to popular belief, these little guys don't put on much weight with an NFL S&C program.
Why are 10-15 lbs the difference between fury and ecstasy? This post does not address that one iota.
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Old 01-25-2014   #51
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Why are 10-15 lbs the difference between fury and ecstasy? This post does not address that one iota.
When we're talking about athletes such as these, we're talking about 10-15 lbs of muscle. That's a huge difference. even 5 lbs is a big difference.

If we're talking about couch potatoes, or soccer moms, it's not.
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Old 01-25-2014   #52
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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When we're talking about athletes such as these, we're talking about 10-15 lbs of muscle. That's a huge difference. even 5 lbs is a big difference.

If we're talking about couch potatoes, or soccer moms, it's not.
Difference in what? Why will 10-15 pounds make him a better NFL QB?
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Old 01-25-2014   #53
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Difference in what? Why will 10-15 pounds make him a better NFL QB?
I know right? Durability, but it's not like he will not add weight after leaving College, in the pros with trainer/nutrientist not to mention natural maturity.
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Old 01-25-2014   #54
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
When we're talking about athletes such as these, we're talking about 10-15 lbs of muscle. That's a huge difference. even 5 lbs is a big difference.

If we're talking about couch potatoes, or soccer moms, it's not.
No we aren't, 10-15 pounds of pure muscle takes years to build, even for professional athletes. If Teddy were to hypothetically weigh 200 lbs at the end of December, and then weigh 215 at the combine, that is NOT muscle.
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Old 01-25-2014   #55
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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In general teams have assigned their own specific measreables to each position, then evaluate how well they carry/move that weight/size/strength/speed. AT some point durability enters equation along with associated risks, so they must sign off if borderline size prospect is worth that risk for investment. Ideally high risk high reward checks off all the boxes except those you can't measure like passion for the game, heart, football intelligence (sorry wonderlic) intangibles.

Let's just use Manziel for example. Less than ideal size, but he can carry his weight w/elite mobility range. So his draft stock is based on the more difficult & elusive measurements, intangibles. Johnny possess rare leadership ability with swag (will turn off some teams/fans) Innate instincts to process time & space (pocket presence) elite, however how much does height/size play in his ability to make progressions while in the pocket, hence his propensity to escape & throw on the run. A team can succeed with Manziel using a system tailor made to utilize his strengths, not specific but somewhat based off initial prospect measureables.
If Manziel was behind a solid Oline would he remain in the pocket after he learned to trust them?
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Old 01-25-2014   #56
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

I never saw anything from Bray. Sure, he looks the part, but according to all reports he's immature and not exactly the smartest guy. I don't really see any difference between him and Mallet. Both are big guys with strong arms, but they can't move and they have maturity issues.
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Old 01-25-2014   #57
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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I know right? Durability, but it's not like he will not add weight after leaving College, in the pros with trainer/nutrientist not to mention natural maturity.
Durability is the main concern. Not everyone will gain weight when they get into the NFL.... look at Matt McGloin, I don't think Michael Vick ever gained any weight.

Look, you guys can ignore the size issue as it pertains to Bridgewater, that's fine. You can minimize it as well. Sooner or later, you're going to realize that you're saying, "Close enough" too many times.

Maybe this is a new NFL, maybe the game has passed me up.....

At 6'1" 210lbs, there were concerns about Michael Vick being to frail to play in the NFL. Atlanta took him with the #1 pick overall. That's all I'm saying, it should be a concern.
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Old 01-25-2014   #58
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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Durability is the main concern. Not everyone will gain weight when they get into the NFL.... look at Matt McGloin, I don't think Michael Vick ever gained any weight.

Look, you guys can ignore the size issue as it pertains to Bridgewater, that's fine. You can minimize it as well. Sooner or later, you're going to realize that you're saying, "Close enough" too many times.

Maybe this is a new NFL, maybe the game has passed me up.....

At 6'1" 210lbs, there were concerns about Michael Vick being to frail to play in the NFL. Atlanta took him with the #1 pick overall. That's all I'm saying, it should be a concern.
At least you're consistent about the size,but lemme add this. Its really how you absorb hits. Big Ben has missed a lot of games recently and he's 250lbs. No matter how big and strong you are,you can't hold the ball and get dragged down by 300lb men. I've stood next to rodgers before and 220 is a lie. He's not a big guy and he's been hurt from guys landing on him. Whether TB is 210,205,or 215, its about getting rid of the ball. Of course qb get hit, but when u can process the info and get rid of the ball,you're not gonna take a lot hits. Manning didn't get hit a lot despite playing without the all pro clady,the rt,and the center. Why? Getting rid of the ball. That's what its about. Brees hasn't missed a game because he doesn't take shots,not because he's 6'4 250lbs. Warren Moon didn't miss games either and we all know he wasn't a big guy.
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Old 01-25-2014   #59
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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At least you're consistent about the size,but lemme add this. Its really how you absorb hits. Big Ben has missed a lot of games recently and he's 250lbs. No matter how big and strong you are,you can't hold the ball and get dragged down by 300lb men.
No doubt about it. I think Big 'ol Jamarcus Russell didn't like being hit by grown men, again & again, & again, & again.

Little David Carr never missed a game.

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Whether TB is 210,205,or 215, its about getting rid of the ball. Of course qb get hit, but when u can process the info and get rid of the ball,you're not gonna take a lot hits. Manning didn't get hit a lot despite playing without the all pro clady,the rt,and the center. Why? Getting rid of the ball. That's what its about. Brees hasn't missed a game because he doesn't take shots,not because he's 6'4 250lbs. Warren Moon didn't miss games either and we all know he wasn't a big guy.
Again, if you want to draft him at 1-1, go for it. I'd have my concerns.
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Old 01-25-2014   #60
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Default Re: what QB are you projecting in the top ten next year?

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If Manziel was behind a solid Oline would he remain in the pocket after he learned to trust them?
really? Johnny Manziel had Luke Joeckel @ LT (2nd overall pick in 2013) & Jake Matthews the #1 rated OT this year as his tackles, lol
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