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Old 01-03-2014   #221
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
So if two people are arguing just for the sake of arguing, how many people are arguing?
And this is why I don't like you at all. I thought you mellowed out a little since you got here, but you're still acting like a child and can't have a discussion about anything without making it devolve into pointless slapfights. It's not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's trying to understand the language you are using, and presenting the opposing definitions. Simply disagreeing is not being argumentative, but you seem to have some sort of victim mentality where anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a contrarian simply because it's against you.

When you make a statement like "he's double-teamed on every passing play" that means something. If you consider contact with any two offensive players a "double-team" then I need to know that, or else you give a mischaracterization in your analysis. I read that earlier in one of your posts, and never saw that when I watched the game, so I thought you were crazy.

I think you're wrong in your definition, and I think that's important if you're going to continue to post here. But feel free to just think this is some silly waste of time discussion and we're all out to get you.
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Old 01-03-2014   #222
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
I shouldn't have typed that response in such a hurry; so many spelling errors.

Anyways, I think Clowney could make do as a 3-4 OLB as long as he isn't asked to cover a whole lot due to his stiffness. On one snap against UNC he stood up and had great speed but the LT went at his legs and had some success slowing him down. In any case, I've grown fond of the 3-4 during Wade's tenure here but if switching to a 4-3 would be a better use of Watt and Clowney I'm all for it.

As far as injuries go I'm not too concerned with Clowney; the bone spurs will need removing but he should be fine after that. We should probably ask Doc about it for a better understanding of how it might affect him, in any case. The fact that Clowney wants to go to the Combine before getting surgery seems to speak to his willingness to prove himself.
And as soon as a good coach sees the bolded, he's done...he wasn't asked to do much of it in college, i'd hate to have him do it alot in the NFL b/c i don't think he'd be good at. The way offenses are spreading defenses out these days, it would be nearly impossible to not have him coverage a ton. We'd see repeats of the 2012 Patriots/Texans debacles. & for a guy with injury concerns around his feet already, i'm not sure you'd want him out there covering the Graham's...or Gronkowski's.....or in 1 on 1 situations with a guy like Bush or Sproles.

Bottom line is, if we were to stay in a 3-4, i don't think he could play OLB...too big & stiff imo. Taking him would mean we'd have to switch to a 4-3 & put his ass on the line where he's comfy & we could use his athleticism in spurts and as a strength.
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Old 01-03-2014   #223
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
i'm not sure you'd want him out there covering the Graham's...or Gronkowski's.....or in 1 on 1 situations with a guy like Bush or Sproles.

Bottom line is, if we were to stay in a 3-4, i don't think he could play OLB...too big & stiff imo. Taking him would mean we'd have to switch to a 4-3 & put his ass on the line where he's comfy & we could use his athleticism in spurts and as a strength.
I think hell froze over, I'm in full agreement with you.
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Old 01-03-2014   #224
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
So if two people are arguing just for the sake of arguing, how many people are arguing?
A chip block is a chip block. A double-team is a double-team. For most people, they're not the same thing.

With a chip block, the person performing the chip just brushes the player and doesn't engage in a true block. In a double-team, two players actively engage a single player.

Let's see if we can find any definitions...
[b]Double-team:[b] Two linemen ganging up on one defensive player. Itís more common on pass plays when the center and a guard work together to stop the penetration of a talented inside pass-rusher. However, the double-team also works well on running plays, especially at the point of attack or at the place where the play is designed to go. The double-team blockers attack one defender, clearing out the one player who might stop the play from working.

A chip block isn't a double-team because the one of the two offensive players does not "gang up", he just brushes by.
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Old 01-03-2014   #225
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
And this is why I don't like you at all. I thought you mellowed out a little since you got here, but you're still acting like a child and can't have a discussion about anything without making it devolve into pointless slapfights. It's not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's trying to understand the language you are using, and presenting the opposing definitions. Simply disagreeing is not being argumentative, but you seem to have some sort of victim mentality where anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a contrarian simply because it's against you.

When you make a statement like "he's double-teamed on every passing play" that means something. If you consider contact with any two offensive players a "double-team" then I need to know that, or else you give a mischaracterization in your analysis. I read that earlier in one of your posts, and never saw that when I watched the game, so I thought you were crazy.

I think you're wrong in your definition, and I think that's important if you're going to continue to post here. But feel free to just think this is some silly waste of time discussion and we're all out to get you.
Lighten up francis....there comes a point when people are arguing just argue because that is their nature. Once I have said two people blocking is a double team and you say it is not I see no reason of a lengthy back and forth just because you want to be right, I see it more as we disagree. I guess you and others will want to argue this too.
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Old 01-03-2014   #226
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
And this is why I don't like you at all. I thought you mellowed out a little since you got here, but you're still acting like a child and can't have a discussion about anything without making it devolve into pointless slapfights. It's not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's trying to understand the language you are using, and presenting the opposing definitions. Simply disagreeing is not being argumentative, but you seem to have some sort of victim mentality where anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a contrarian simply because it's against you.

When you make a statement like "he's double-teamed on every passing play" that means something. If you consider contact with any two offensive players a "double-team" then I need to know that, or else you give a mischaracterization in your analysis. I read that earlier in one of your posts, and never saw that when I watched the game, so I thought you were crazy.

I think you're wrong in your definition, and I think that's important if you're going to continue to post here. But feel free to just think this is some silly waste of time discussion and we're all out to get you.
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Old 01-03-2014   #227
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
I shouldn't have typed that response in such a hurry; so many spelling errors.

Anyways, I think Clowney could make do as a 3-4 OLB as long as he isn't asked to cover a whole lot due to his stiffness. On one snap against UNC he stood up and had great speed but the LT went at his legs and had some success slowing him down. In any case, I've grown fond of the 3-4 during Wade's tenure here but if switching to a 4-3 would be a better use of Watt and Clowney I'm all for it.

As far as injuries go I'm not too concerned with Clowney; the bone spurs will need removing but he should be fine after that. We should probably ask Doc about it for a better understanding of how it might affect him, in any case. The fact that Clowney wants to go to the Combine before getting surgery seems to speak to his willingness to prove himself.
I'd set up an early special combine so I could get the surgery in time for recovery by the OTAs and Training Camp.
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Old 01-03-2014   #228
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Mr teX View Post
And as soon as a good coach sees the bolded, he's done...he wasn't asked to do much of it in college, i'd hate to have him do it alot in the NFL b/c i don't think he'd be good at. The way offenses are spreading defenses out these days, it would be nearly impossible to not have him coverage a ton. We'd see repeats of the 2012 Patriots/Texans debacles. & for a guy with injury concerns around his feet already, i'm not sure you'd want him out there covering the Graham's...or Gronkowski's.....or in 1 on 1 situations with a guy like Bush or Sproles.

Bottom line is, if we were to stay in a 3-4, i don't think he could play OLB...too big & stiff imo. Taking him would mean we'd have to switch to a 4-3 & put his ass on the line where he's comfy & we could use his athleticism in spurts and as a strength.
Well, not being able to cover is not necessarily a weakness if you never need him to do it; Watt is never (or, at least, only rarely) asked to cover anyone and just rushes the passer/RB. O'Brien also made a good point that whether we stay in the 3-4 or switch to the 4-3, that ~60% of the time a defense is in a nickel or dime 4-man front anyways due to how profound the passing game has become as of late, just like you mention.

Drafting Clowney and staying in the 3-4 wouldn't preclude him from putting his hands on the ground. Any defensive coach worth his salt would find a way to use JD to the limits of his talent.
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Old 01-03-2014   #229
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
And this is why I don't like you at all. I thought you mellowed out a little since you got here, but you're still acting like a child and can't have a discussion about anything without making it devolve into pointless slapfights. It's not arguing for the sake of arguing, it's trying to understand the language you are using, and presenting the opposing definitions. Simply disagreeing is not being argumentative, but you seem to have some sort of victim mentality where anyone who disagrees with you is automatically a contrarian simply because it's against you.

When you make a statement like "he's double-teamed on every passing play" that means something. If you consider contact with any two offensive players a "double-team" then I need to know that, or else you give a mischaracterization in your analysis. I read that earlier in one of your posts, and never saw that when I watched the game, so I thought you were crazy.

I think you're wrong in your definition, and I think that's important if you're going to continue to post here. But feel free to just think this is some silly waste of time discussion and we're all out to get you.
Perhaps there should be a half block like there are half sacks.
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Old 01-03-2014   #230
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
Well, not being able to cover is not necessarily a weakness if you never need him to do it; Watt is never (or, at least, only rarely) asked to cover anyone and just rushes the passer/RB. O'Brien also made a good point that whether we stay in the 3-4 or switch to the 4-3, that ~60% of the time a defense is in a nickel or dime 4-man front anyways due to how profound the passing game has become as of late, just like you mention.

Drafting Clowney and staying in the 3-4 wouldn't preclude him from putting his hands on the ground. Any defensive coach worth his salt would find a way to use JD to the limits of his talent.
Watt was never considered to be a candidate to be converted to an OLB though either. If Clowney is brought in and they have any ideas about possibly converting him, he will be in coverage much more than he ever was in college...even if it is only 40% of the time as O'brien says; Either that or he'll be coming in off the bench on situational pass rushing downs much like Aldon Smith is used in SF.

The question then becomes, do we have the luxury of using 1-1 on a guy who's either a project at OLB or just a situational pass rusher? Especially when we have the chance to take the best qb prospect? I say no.
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Old 01-03-2014   #231
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Watt was never considered to be a candidate to be converted to an OLB though either. If Clowney is brought in and they have any ideas about possibly converting him, he will be in coverage much more than he ever was in college...even if it is only 40% of the time as O'brien says; Either that or he'll be coming in off the bench on situational pass rushing downs much like Aldon Smith is used in SF.

The question then becomes, do we have the luxury of using 1-1 on a guy who's either a project at OLB or just a situational pass rusher? Especially when we have the chance to take the best qb prospect? I say no.
Meh, that's why I leave the door open to him becoming a bookend 3-4 DE to Watt once he gains about 15lbs, but like I said he's such a talent that any good defensive coordinator will try and find the best use for him.

As for 1-1, who knows if McNair trades down to the Browns and grabs him at #4 overall. Assuming we aren't picking Manziel.
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Old 01-03-2014   #232
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

You guys are arguing over symantics. It's not a double team by definition but it's basically the same thing. It's a way of scheming against a player to slow him down by using two players.

Whether it's a double team or a chip the fact remains, he is being schemed against. Some quick plays only require he be slowed down. The slower developing plays require he be held up as long as possible. Either way he's requiring the efforts of more than one player to guard against him. That takes special talent. Opposing coaches wouldn't be implementing specific schemes directed at him if there wasn't a reason.
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Old 01-03-2014   #233
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

I took a look at this video. It's his game against UNC.

I don't see an extraordinary number of double-teams. I don't consider chips to be double-teams and I don't consider someone taking an inside rush so that he ends up being blocked by two guys a double team. To me, a double team is when they draw up the play and say "You two guys block this one guy and stay on him."

He looks very athletic. He's got some nice moves. But he doesn't look like a #1 overall monster to me.
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Old 01-03-2014   #234
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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That's fine, we disagree. I believe that IR guys and guys like D Brown coming back healthy will improve this OLine more than adequately enough that we DON'T even need to address the line minus late round (4th+) picks.
I think depending on unproven injured players has been a huge problem of this team in the past. We didn't draft a TE because we expected Bennie Joppru, we've held off on LB because of Darryl Sharpton & Cushing, We waited on Dunta to get healthy.

IMO, we don't need to fix the RT position, we need to fix our OL. We can hope Brennan Williams can come back healthy, then hope he is better than Derek Newton, but we don't know that he is. I want to draft a LT, we're in position to get the best one in this draft. If he's a true franchise LT, he should be able to start on the left side from day one. Doesn't mean we have to start him there, but he should be. Either way, our OL gets better. Much, much better. Not marginally better if Williams is healthy, if he's better than Newton..... & any RT we get might not be ready to start in the NFL.

We need to fix our pass rush. Jadaveon Clowney does that, even if he takes plays off. But he won't' take plays off, just like Mario didn't take plays off playing with Cushing & Watt. Even Mario didn't want to be the 3rd best player on our defense. Clowney knew he was the best player on that defense even when he took plays off.

We need to fix our QB. Like Rick said, we didn't have a viable option at the position last year. To me, that screams veteran. We'll draft a QB for our future, but not one QB projected in the first round gives me reason to believe he'll help us win more games than any other QB projected to go in the first round.

There may be two franchise LTs in this draft. Maybe two franchise pass rushers.

There may be 5 franchise QBs in this draft.
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Old 01-03-2014   #235
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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I took a look at this video. It's his game against UNC.

I don't see an extraordinary number of double-teams. I don't consider chips to be double-teams and I don't consider someone taking an inside rush so that he ends up being blocked by two guys a double team. To me, a double team is when they draw up the play and say "You two guys block this one guy and stay on him."

He looks very athletic. He's got some nice moves. But he doesn't look like a #1 overall monster to me.
That's what I was telling a poster earlier. I told him clowney didn't get doubled like they tried to say. I know what a double looks like. A lot of times, if he beat his man, someone picked him up. That's what you're suppose to do as a ol. The problem I had or have with clowney is the quit in him. I've seen him quit on doubles and chips. Being relentless with his skill can lead to a lot more impact plays. Go look at von miller,aldon smith,jared allen, robert mathis,quinn,long,watt, those guys are relentless. Your initial,secondary,and tertiary effort can yield big results.

Clowney has shown flashes when he wants to play, he also has shown to be below par when he doesn't want to play. What is he gonna do during a tough stretch and he's getting 5m?
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Old 01-03-2014   #236
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

If he is moved inside and it takes two guys to block him, it's a double team. We wouldn't put a huge guy inside at NT to garner phantom not-double teams, that's changing the definition to suit your argument.
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Old 01-03-2014   #237
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by thunderkyss View Post
I think depending on unproven injured players has been a huge problem of this team in the past. We didn't draft a TE because we expected Bennie Joppru, we've held off on LB because of Darryl Sharpton & Cushing, We waited on Dunta to get healthy.

IMO, we don't need to fix the RT position, we need to fix our OL. We can hope Brennan Williams can come back healthy, then hope he is better than Derek Newton, but we don't know that he is. I want to draft a LT, we're in position to get the best one in this draft. If he's a true franchise LT, he should be able to start on the left side from day one. Doesn't mean we have to start him there, but he should be. Either way, our OL gets better. Much, much better. Not marginally better if Williams is healthy, if he's better than Newton..... & any RT we get might not be ready to start in the NFL.

We need to fix our pass rush. Jadaveon Clowney does that, even if he takes plays off. But he won't' take plays off, just like Mario didn't take plays off playing with Cushing & Watt. Even Mario didn't want to be the 3rd best player on our defense. Clowney knew he was the best player on that defense even when he took plays off.

We need to fix our QB. Like Rick said, we didn't have a viable option at the position last year. To me, that screams veteran. We'll draft a QB for our future, but not one QB projected in the first round gives me reason to believe he'll help us win more games than any other QB projected to go in the first round.

There may be two franchise LTs in this draft. Maybe two franchise pass rushers.

There may be 5 franchise QBs in this draft.
What team in the playoffs have a franchise lt or pass rusher? I'm willing to bet there is no such thing on any of the teams in the playoffs in the afc. We regard seattle as a top defense,yet all their pass rushers are 2nd,3rd or guys they've signed. I think they have 6 guy with more than 6 sacks. Its about the collective.

There isn't 1 team in the afc playoffs with a franchise lt or rt. Again, its the line as a collection. No one complained about the line when a udfa and a 3rd rd pick was on the right side. What we do know though is 4 of the 6 qbs were drafted top 4.
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Old 01-03-2014   #238
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
So if two people are arguing just for the sake of arguing, how many people are arguing?
I feel totally useless in this thread.

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Old 01-03-2014   #239
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by The Pencil Neck View Post
I took a look at this video. It's his game against UNC.

I don't see an extraordinary number of double-teams. I don't consider chips to be double-teams and I don't consider someone taking an inside rush so that he ends up being blocked by two guys a double team. To me, a double team is when they draw up the play and say "You two guys block this one guy and stay on him."

He looks very athletic. He's got some nice moves. But he doesn't look like a #1 overall monster to me.
I just watched that video also, I'm not going to get into the whole double team discussion ( both sides of that have good points ). But man he was in the backfield a lot in that game, looked pretty disruptive, stats or no stats. throws his arms and shoulders around players but doesn't look like he uses his hands much to me. nice bull rush to go with his speed. As long as the bone spurs are not going to be a long term problem or cause other problems, I think he is worth top overall. he can definitely get better with technique.
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Old 01-03-2014   #240
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by bhsman View Post
If he is moved inside and it takes two guys to block him, it's a double team. We wouldn't put a huge guy inside at NT to garner phantom not-double teams, that's changing the definition to suit your argument.
Imagine a pocket of 5 guys vs 4 guys. If clowney is doubled, its not after he's made his move, its as soon as the ball is hiked. If the ball is hiked,he beats the lt with an inside move,and the lg picks him up,that's not a double. That's more of a slide protection. When teams double with the lt and lg, the de is engaged at the snap.
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