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Old 01-03-2014   #201
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Do people consider getting chipped by the RB a "double-team?"
No generally but particularly not in college where the RBs as a general matter suck at pass protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YoungTexanFan View Post
Preface: I only read the last 3 pages.

Clowney is the best player in this draft. That shouldn't be a question. You can question his effort or conditioning, but you are lying to yourself if you question his talent.
Everyone keeps looking only at the motivation issue but there is a very significant health issue. The guy has multiple bone spurs which require surgery. That is not minor and is not spontaneous on its own. It is a result of another underlying cause such as plantar fasciitis. PF and turf tow can rob a player of initial burst in a heartbeat, they are take a year off to rehab kind of injuries and they are frequently degenerative. Topping that off with someone who may not be all that motivated doesn't help the prognosis.

For an example people should recall, Gary Walker had 29 sacks in 4 years as 4-3 DT and then 3-4 DE. Then he got turf toe. 3 seasons and 1.5 sacks later his NFL career was over.
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Old 01-03-2014   #202
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
No generally but particularly not in college where the RBs as a general matter suck at pass protection.



Everyone keeps looking only at the motivation issue but there is a very significant health issue. The guy has multiple bone spurs which require surgery. That is not minor and is not spontaneous on its own. It is a result of another underlying cause such as plantar fasciitis. PF and turf tow can rob a player of initial burst in a heartbeat, they are take a year off to rehab kind of injuries and they are frequently degenerative. Topping that off with someone who may not be all that motivated doesn't help the prognosis.

For an example people should recall, Gary Walker had 29 sacks in 4 years as 4-3 DT and then 3-4 DE. Then he got turf toe. 3 seasons and 1.5 sacks later his NFL career was over.
I think the motivation issue is a symptom of being just ok about playing football . To be really good in anything it's something you can't put down . It could be injury or motivation but Clowney has warts .
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Old 01-03-2014   #203
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Honoring Earl 34 View Post
I think the motivation issue is a symptom of being just ok about playing football . To be really good in anything it's something you can't put down . It could be injury or motivation but Clowney has warts .
I wasn't saying that as the injury is the cause of his apparent lack of motivation. My point is he may be the most motivated guy in the world and most talented and there is still a very serious injury concern.
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Old 01-03-2014   #204
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by infantrycak View Post
I wasn't saying that as the injury is the cause of his apparent lack of motivation. My point is he may be the most motivated guy in the world and most talented and there is still a very serious injury concern.
I've read where he missed the Kentucky game because he had bruised ribs . Nobody knew he wasn't playing until he walked out of the tunnel in street clothes .

I find all this funny because some of the same folks who bashed Mario are pro Clowney . The funnier thing to me is we expect football players to workout 24/7 while we tap on a keyboard all day .
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Old 01-03-2014   #205
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
I do, it is usually part of the game plan to help disrupt a player. Without a RB/FB helping out the damage could be much worse.
Well, I don't. Double-teams are designed to pick up a player once the ball is snapped. With Clowney, you usually see it with the OT being helped by the TE or Guard. The RB is more of a second line of defense, in case a protection breaks down. He's often on the side where the defense has the most potential rushers in order to mitigate the pressure on the QB. Clowney getting to the RB level is a positive of course, because he's the first to get there, but I wouldn't consider it a "double-team" unless the RB specifically goes to him at the snap.

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I distinguishee between the to in my post; the puropose in the game (or at least the UNC game, but I've seen it occur in others) is not to take Clowney of out a play entirely but to just slow him down. If he were to play for us, he wouldn't be playing opposite Kelcy Quarles and Will Sutton (who have certainly taken advantage of all the attention Clowney receives and gotten sacks with all the single blocking they get) but JJ Watt and Whitney Mercilus.
Yeah, I appreciate your work on that and making the distinctions, I'm just asking out of curiosity. People often say things like "Clowney is constantly double-teamed" or something to that effect, and I don't really think it's true, or even close to being true, but that's how the hype builds. I see the same sort of exaggeration about Watt around here too, so it's not really anything new, I just think it's people using a bit of hyperbole due to excitement. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

I think that UNC game was a good example of this. In the first half you saw a lot of Clowney getting by the OT 1v1 and making some QB pressures, so you get a lot of RB chips or cut blocks. You also see some double-teams by the guard or TE. Then in the second half, UNC adjusted their scheme and decided to just run to the opposite side of the field, or have the QB roll that direction away from Clowney's pressure, or do quick throws on a 3step drop. That was their way of taking him out of many plays, but he was still able to make some plays. By doing so, they avoid wasting a second player blocking Clowney. So while he wasn't getting double-teamed much in the 2nd half, you could see how his performance in the 1st half dictated the adjustments of UNC. That's one hell of a disruptive player for sure.

That being said, he's only worth taking 1.1 if he fits the scheme. If our Defense moves to a 4-3, I'd have no problem making him the RE across from Watt, that to me is a slam-dunk pair of DEs for the future. If we move to a traditional 3-4, then I'm a bit concerned about how he would do at OLB. Putting him on Watt's side means that teams will just need to scheme the opposite direction. Putting him at WOLB means we would need to shift someone else into coverage on their TE if he's on that side. Making him a 3-4 RDE might work, but I don't know if he would fair well in that position. He'd probably do well, but man that's a lot of resources to have in both DEs of a 3-4.
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Old 01-03-2014   #206
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Blake View Post
So what is your take on Clowney's effort over the last season? Also, what QB's do you have in mind for trade?
My take is that he had a big head coming off his Sophomore year and he didn't dedicate himself to offseason conditioning. He worked his way into enough shape to make an impact. Offenses changed how they approached and ran against him and added timing routes. His play is fine. I trust an NFL coaching staff, our veteran players, and a paycheck to fix that "big head" issue. The talent is there. As shown in this thread and I'm sure others, it's not like he takes plays off often. He's gassed. That's a conditioning issue. That is fixable. Easily. That has nothing to do with how he can impact the game, and that is my take on his "effort" over the last season.

As for QBs, I'd consider Mallet who is in an offensive system/culture O'Brien helped create or the Oakland QB who torched us and was at Penn State with him before the NFL. Give up a 3rd this year and a conditional pick next year for Mallet.
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Old 01-03-2014   #207
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Mallett is as unproven as any of the QB's this year that nobody here wants to draft.
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Old 01-03-2014   #208
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchrudder View Post
Well, I don't. Double-teams are designed to pick up a player once the ball is snapped. With Clowney, you usually see it with the OT being helped by the TE or Guard. The RB is more of a second line of defense, in case a protection breaks down. He's often on the side where the defense has the most potential rushers in order to mitigate the pressure on the QB. Clowney getting to the RB level is a positive of course, because he's the first to get there, but I wouldn't consider it a "double-team" unless the RB specifically goes to him at the snap.
Duane Brown's first 2 years in league he was giving up double digit sacks. In his 3rd year the Texans game planned to have a TE, FB, RB help out w/ Brown's blocking assignment in passing situations usually w/ a chip block. As a result the number of sacks allowed by Brown dropped dramatically.
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Old 01-03-2014   #209
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Duane Brown's first 2 years in league he was giving up double digit sacks. In his 3rd year the Texans game planned to have a TE, FB, RB help out w/ Brown's blocking assignment in passing situations usually w/ a chip block. As a result the number of sacks allowed by Brown dropped dramatically.
Which is exactly why it is utilized. It still doesn't make it a double-team.
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Old 01-03-2014   #210
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Which is exactly why it is utilized. It still doesn't make it a double-team.
Two people, that's TWO (2) people making contact to block another player is a double team. ONE player, ONE (1) player making contact to block another player is not a double team. The key here is TWO PEOPLE, That's a double team, that's a conspiracy. It's not even math, it's called simple arithmetic.
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Old 01-03-2014   #211
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Two people, that's TWO (2) people making contact to block another player is a double team. ONE player, ONE (1) player making contact to block another player is not a double team. The key here is TWO PEOPLE, That's a double team, that's a conspiracy. It's not even math, it's called simple arithmetic.
By that logic, beating the OT, the TE chip block, then going through a RB to get to the QB would be a triple team.

And to take it a step further, on some of those Johnny Football plays, defenders will make contact with 4+ blockers while chasing JFF around. Calling that blocking chaos a quadruple-team would be silly. The difference is the designed engaging blocks, versus the reaction blocks that occur based on how the play goes.
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Old 01-03-2014   #212
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texian View Post
Two people, that's TWO (2) people making contact to block another player is a double team. ONE player, ONE (1) player making contact to block another player is not a double team. The key here is TWO PEOPLE, That's a double team, that's a conspiracy. It's not even math, it's called simple arithmetic.
So in a Cover 2, when the CB passes off the WR to the Safety, if the ball is thrown on a fade 1-on-1 then it was thrown into double coverage because the CB shadowed his route to start the play?
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Old 01-03-2014   #213
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

From a coach:

Quote:
"Running backs will also help the offensive lineman on the speed rusher by doing something we call chipping," Conner said. "Chipping is when a running back brushes a defensive lineman before he goes into his route. He's not responsible for blocking this guy, but he wants to chip him just enough to slow him down for the offensive lineman to block him."
Link
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Old 01-03-2014   #214
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Yes, Speeding, REALLLY!

I drove over 100mph once in my life. But the difference is that I was not about to be negotiating a million dollar contract depending on my draft status.

And save me the argument that taking a QB 1-1 means it is forcing it when we all value these guys differently. Every player thrives and fails for different reasons.
Ive driven over 100 mph more times than I care to remember but it did stop around my early to mid 20s. Even if I was about to sign for millions Im not sure if that would change anything. Im thankful I grew out of that habit and didnt hurt anyone before I put that one to rest
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Old 01-03-2014   #215
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Originally Posted by WolverineFan View Post
So in a Cover 2, when the CB passes off the WR to the Safety, if the ball is thrown on a fade 1-on-1 then it was thrown into double coverage because the CB shadowed his route to start the play?
When Julius Peppers is fully blocked by the OT and the TE also hits him with his shoulder and knocks him off stride, how many players would Julius Pepper say blocked him? Hint: This is not a trick question.
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Old 01-03-2014   #216
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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From a coach:



Link
Sounds like a TWO PLAYER effort.
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Old 01-03-2014   #217
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Ive driven over 100 mph more times than I care to remember but it did stop around my early to mid 20s. Even if I was about to sign for millions Im not sure if that would change anything. Im thankful I grew out of that habit and didnt hurt anyone before I put that one to rest
The male mind does not fully develop and mature until they reach the age of 27 to 30.
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Old 01-03-2014   #218
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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Sounds like a TWO PLAYER effort.
Where only ONE is responsible for blocking the defender.

The primary responsibility of a RB or TE who chips is the route, not the block. A double team is TWO whose responsibility is blocking.
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Old 01-03-2014   #219
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

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So in a Cover 2, when the CB passes off the WR to the Safety, if the ball is thrown on a fade 1-on-1 then it was thrown into double coverage because the CB shadowed his route to start the play?
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Where only ONE is responsible for blocking the defender.

The primary responsibility of a RB or TE who chips is the route, not the block. A double team is TWO whose responsibility is blocking.
So if two people are arguing just for the sake of arguing, how many people are arguing?
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Old 01-03-2014   #220
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Default Re: Clowney, then what?

I shouldn't have typed that response in such a hurry; so many spelling errors.

Anyways, I think Clowney could make do as a 3-4 OLB as long as he isn't asked to cover a whole lot due to his stiffness. On one snap against UNC he stood up and had great speed but the LT went at his legs and had some success slowing him down. In any case, I've grown fond of the 3-4 during Wade's tenure here but if switching to a 4-3 would be a better use of Watt and Clowney I'm all for it.

As far as injuries go I'm not too concerned with Clowney; the bone spurs will need removing but he should be fine after that. We should probably ask Doc about it for a better understanding of how it might affect him, in any case. The fact that Clowney wants to go to the Combine before getting surgery seems to speak to his willingness to prove himself.
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